My ax-grinding partial preterist thread

[zone]

Ok but here's the question.

If the 1000 years has started, it says in Rev 20 that Satan is bound, so that he can't deceive the nations...


If we're currently in the 1000 years, and Satan is bound so he can't deceive anyone, then what does that do for Eph 6 on spiritual warfare? It seems pretty clear Satan is still deceivin folks today.

here's the entire chapter.

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


that's it.
that's all it says about the binding, release and deceiving.
its about one thing: deceiving the nations to gather them to the final battle, and the christians are killed.

its not about daily sin, or him roaring like a lion or any of that. its not meant to say he can't do that stuff.

its meant to show that the battle, the final assault on the people of God can not and will not happen until he is released to make it happen.

when he starts with And i saw...it means he's seeing another part of something. not a continuation of what went before chronologically necessarily...just like another snapshot.

here's the exact same thing covered by Paul:

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

 

[1still_waters]

here's the entire chapter.

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


that's it.
that's all it says about the binding, release and deceiving.
its about one thing: deceiving the nations to gather them to the final battle, and the christians are killed.

its not about daily sin, or him roaring like a lion or any of that. its not meant to say he can't do that stuff.

its meant to show that the battle, the final assault on the people of God can not and will not happen until he is released to make it happen.

here's the exact same thing covered by Paul:

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

I don't know.. I mean it clearly says he's bound and can't deceive the nations....

I doesn't put a qualifier on ONE kind of deception he's stopped from doing, as he can do others. It just says he can't deceive.

The picture is of him bound, sealed up, unable to deceive AT ALL.

To say he has SOME power to deceive a lil bit here and there, that seems to be adding to the text.

Maybe I'm seeing it this way cuz I'm new to all this stuff........but ummm....It just seems to say what it's sayin.

 

[1still_waters]

here's the entire chapter.

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


that's it.
that's all it says about the binding, release and deceiving.
its about one thing: deceiving the nations to gather them to the final battle, and the christians are killed.

its not about daily sin, or him roaring like a lion or any of that. its not meant to say he can't do that stuff.

its meant to show that the battle, the final assault on the people of God can not and will not happen until he is released to make it happen.

when he starts with And i saw...it means he's seeing another part of something. not a continuation of what went before chronologically necessarily...just like another snapshot.

here's the exact same thing covered by Paul:

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Upon further review, I see how this can make sense.

Thanks.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

that's a stretch EG.
how many hills are there in this world?
what was God saying about His ownership of all things?

Yep, like he always did when trying to explain truths about himself. But he never did it with prophesy was my point. When he prophesied something, It come true exactly as he said it would.

here's the part i don't get.

who exactly lives in the millennium?
what's going on during it?

Whoever survived the tribulation. Whoever "endured till the end" (think about it zone, the very verse people like to use against us to prove there works based Gospel. what did Jesus mean by this, end of what>) They go into this earthly kingdom. Then they have kids. Imagine how many people there would be at the end of the 1000 years. there would be millions.

if there are bad guys in the millennium who don't believe, how can there be peace any more than there is now?

Satan is released at the end. Then there is a rebellion. Why was there no rebellion before?

what kept the jews from killing Christ themselves? The law, and others around them (there would be a mob) who is in charge in the kingdom? Christ. I am sure there is sever punishment for law breakers. That is why it takes satan's power to give them courage to do the unthinkable. And also shows how powerful satan is.

how can they not believe if the Glorified Christ is actually here?

they did not believe him when he was here before. what is to say they will then? look at all he did and they did not believe him. the only difference is he will do those things by his own power. not the HS power.

because Daniel was told to the day.
Daniel 9 is the key.

Yes he is. And he told them to the day when messiah will be revealed, and then said he would be cut off. How many people who know this rejected Christ. just like they will at the end

all fulfilled.

can't be fulfilled. SOme of the things could not have happened yet.

but Rev 20 isn't talking about individuals being deceived. its only about one thing: going out to deceive the nations, to gather them together to the battle. that's all it says about him.

No. rev 20 says he is bound so he can no longer deceive the nations. then what happens the moment he is released? He deceives the nations. And we see the result. Just like we see the result of him deceiving the nations today as we speak. I was using judas as an example of someone who knew daniel. who knew the years. who knew what Jesus would do. and satan entered him, and caused him to turn in Christ.

can you post the passage you are talking about?

i did in my previous response.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

here's the entire chapter.

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


that's it.
that's all it says about the binding, release and deceiving.
its about one thing: deceiving the nations to gather them to the final battle, and the christians are killed.

its not about daily sin, or him roaring like a lion or any of that. its not meant to say he can't do that stuff.

its meant to show that the battle, the final assault on the people of God can not and will not happen until he is released to make it happen.

when he starts with And i saw...it means he's seeing another part of something. not a continuation of what went before chronologically necessarily...just like another snapshot.

here's the exact same thing covered by Paul:

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

again, I take you back to rev 1.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

John did not say they were already happening. He said they were things which will shortly take place.

That was one of the visions which must shortly take place. Not somethign that was already in progress.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't know.. I mean it clearly says he's bound and can't deceive the nations....

I doesn't put a qualifier on ONE kind of deception he's stopped from doing, as he can do others. It just says he can't deceive.

The picture is of him bound, sealed up, unable to deceive AT ALL.

To say he has SOME power to deceive a lil bit here and there, that seems to be adding to the text.

Maybe I'm seeing it this way cuz I'm new to all this stuff........but ummm....It just seems to say what it's sayin.

Satan knows scripture. He knows when he gets bound he is there for 1000 years. He knows when he is released it is his last ditch effort to destroy Christ. What else would he do when he is released. but make one final stand.

Of course he also knows he will lose. But he has known this since the begining, yet he still tries. He somehow things he is still more powerful than God even thow he has been shown over and over he is not.

i know some people this way. I work with them. it still amazes me they can think this way!

 

[zone]

still look at the markers in both chapters:

here's the entire chapter.

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

something restraining or binding him >> Paul said NOW, meaning when Paul was alive he knew satan was "bound", or restrained until the eschaton, which is what he covers in 2 Thess 2

satan's little season/his time/restraining is removed >> john saw in a vision....same thing Paul discusses concerning the eschaton: BEFORE THE SECOND ADVENT.

 

[1still_waters]

Lol a futurist pointed this out to me in chat today...They probably didn't think I'd interpret it this way..

But it does look like there is room for John writing about things that ARE..ie that were happening at the time of his writing..

Rev 1
19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

[zone]

Yep, like he always did when trying to explain truths about himself. But he never did it with prophesy was my point. When he prophesied something, It come true exactly as he said it would. .

but i totally believe all of it will and has come true.
that's the part that stumps me.
who says the things written haven't happened and aren't going to happen?

Whoever survived the tribulation. Whoever "endured till the end" (think about it zone, the very verse people like to use against us to prove there works based Gospel. what did Jesus mean by this, end of what>) They go into this earthly kingdom. Then they have kids. Imagine how many people there would be at the end of the 1000 years. there would be millions. .

but nobody survives the tribulation, because all except the christians take the mark. and all who take the mark are thrown in the lake of fire.

so i don't get why The Lord would reign for a literal 1,000 years with people who had already taken the mark and were condemned. why?

but flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom.
so how can there be flesh men and women procreating?

that's OT Hebrew language that describes the continuing city Abraham looked for in the same way they always heard it. ezekiel's "temple" was New Jerusalem - he saw it from afar.

you know very well there's a HUGE change when we get to the Greek.

Satan is released at the end. Then there is a rebellion. Why was there no rebellion before?.

?? don't futurists say there are two end time battles?
isn't there one before the Second Advent?

what kept the jews from killing Christ themselves? The law, and others around them (there would be a mob) who is in charge in the kingdom? .

no, The Romans kept the jews from killing Him themselves, if we must look at it as though it happened
willy nilly....they were under occupation.

i dunno.
i'm a caveman today.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

still look at the markers in both chapters:




something restraining or binding him >> Paul said NOW, meaning when Paul was alive he knew satan was "bound", or restrained until the eschaton, which is what he covers in 2 Thess 2

satan's little season/his time/restraining is removed >> john saw in a vision....same thing Paul discusses concerning the eschaton: BEFORE THE SECOND ADVENT.

Satan is bound?

Hitler.
Sadaam H
Communism
islam
I could go on and on and on.

he is limited in what he can do, because he is restrained.

fopr the 1000 years, he is shut up.

a man in prison or who is restrained can still control others outside his prison.

one who is shut up can't control anyone or anything.

in 2 thess

greek to hold back, withhold, Hom.:—to check, restrain, control, bridle,

in rev 20'

to bind in chains.

two different greek words.

again the kew is also shut up. Paul did not say satan was shut up, it said he was restrained. He was limited in what he could do. But he could still speak.'

In rev. John said he was chained up. Unable to do anything. but also shut up

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol a futurist pointed this out to me in chat today...They probably didn't think I'd interpret it this way..

But it does look like there is room for John writing about things that ARE..ie that were happening at the time of his writing..

Rev 1
19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

ok ya got me there. I will admit it does give some wiggle room. But still. we have to be realists. Satan can't be bound today. This is where we look to reality. right?

as with all scripture. all things must agree.

James said we are justified by works also. did he really mean it?

 

[1still_waters]

ok ya got me there. I will admit it does give some wiggle room. But still. we have to be realists. Satan can't be bound today. This is where we look to reality. right?

as with all scripture. all things must agree.

James said we are justified by works also. did he really mean it?

Yeah I see how Zone's take on Satan bein bound in Rev 20 is plausible, but he seems bound to the point he h as NO influence at all.

Things that are chained, bound, sealed, don't tend to exert influence over anything.

The imagery seems to show he has NO ability at all.

Zone's interpretation says the only influence he doesn't have is to deceive the nations in to battle....But he can deceive them in any other way...

 

[1still_waters]

Blah I really can see Rev 20 the way Zone does, but I fear I'm seeing it that way because it is the way I wanna see it.

My initial reading of Rev 20 doesn't fit her view at all....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/color]


but nobody survives the tribulation, because all except the christians take the mark. and all who take the mark are thrown in the lake of fire.

then why did Jesus say he who endures to the end will be saved? Who endures? God does not protect anyone for 3 1/2 years? Rev says he protects many.

Thats what I don't get. You fight this verse when people like 4 runner slam it into your face saying he did not mean salvation. So what did he mean. His context was tribulation.

so i don't get why The Lord would reign for a literal 1,000 years with people who had already taken the mark and were condemned. why?

He is not, he killed them with the armies who came against jerusalem.

but flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom.
so how can there be flesh men and women procreating?

This is his future kingdom in heaven. Not now and not then. This is after God destroys this earth.

remember the prophesies concerning the messiah, they spoke of an earthly kingdom. Scripture also talks of a heavenly kingdom. Your getting the two mixed up.

that's OT Hebrew language that describes the continuing city Abraham looked for in the same way they always heard it. ezekiel's "temple" was New Jerusalem - he saw it from afar.

you know very well there's a HUGE change when we get to the Greek.

not sure what your talking about here

?? don't futurists say there are two end time battles?
isn't there one before the Second Advent?

they both are. One battle the enemy is destroyed by God supernaturally. (fire from heaven I think it says)

The next one (armageddon) he comes and personally wipes them off. and everyone on earth sees this happen.

no, The Romans kept the jews from killing Him themselves, if we must look at it as though it happened

willy nilly....they were under occupation.

Scripture says the chief priests sought to kill jesus in private because they fdeard the people. they feared an uprising.

And yes rome. The law. Just like aJesus, will be the law. More powerful than rome.

i dunno.
i'm a caveman today.
[/color]

Jesus. more powerful than rome

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yeah I see how Zone's take on Satan bein bound in Rev 20 is plausible, but he seems bound to the point he h as NO influence at all.

Things that are chained, bound, sealed, don't tend to exert influence over anything.

The imagery seems to show he has NO ability at all.

Zone's interpretation says the only influence he doesn't have is to deceive the nations in to battle....But he can deceive them in any other way...

that would not make sens though. Because he would not be shut up. he could still speak. That is not what John says in rev 20

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Blah I really can see Rev 20 the way Zone does, but I fear I'm seeing it that way because it is the way I wanna see it.

My initial reading of Rev 20 doesn't fit her view at all....

I know its hard sometimes. Like I wanted to see future. yet you showed there might be present. it sometimes hurts..lol
I wanted to fight it. but I couldn't

 

[1still_waters]

Ok let's grapple with this.

What if Satan is bound to the point he has no influence whatsoever?

What would the world be like if Jesus hadn't restored his kingdom yet on Earth, BUT Satan was bound and had 100% NO influence.

I know for one we'd still have to deal with fallen human beings, still wrestling with their flesh.

On the other hand we wouldn't have to deal with the devil.

BUT if it's just the devil that's bound, there may still be demons around.

So we'd be dealing with the flesh and then demons who are without a leader.

 

[shroom2]

FWIW, (not much, probably) I agree with EG on this.

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Yes, that is metaphorical. He owns a lot of cattle. But I do not think the thousand years in Rev is metaphorical. I believe it will be a period of a thousand years.

I do not see how anyone could think that satan is currently bound. Look at the state of the world. Wars, famines, political unrest, terrorists, and on and on. If Jesus Christ was reigning, do you think he would allow those things? It says he will rule with a 'rod of iron". He will be in control. If he is reigning now, he certainly isn't exercising much control.

Zone, some people will make it through the trib. Matt 24:
21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Some people will make it through.

As far as who will be here during the 1000 years... We'll be here. We will return with Christ to fight armageddon (we win), and remain to I assume help him reign. The bible says that once Christians are gathered together, we will forever be with the Lord. So wherever he is, we will be. OT believers will be here. The first resurrection (of the just) will happen, and all the OT believers will get up. Also, the people who made it through the trib will be here. They will still be flesh and blood. Hence, they will be the ones procreating.

The devil will be bound.

Isaiah 65:17ff are talking about this period. It will be perfect living conditions. Utopia (I know, not a biblical term)

At the end of the thousand years, the devil will be loosed. Despite people living in perfect conditions, the devil will manage to put together a massive army to try and overthrow Jerusalem. But "and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

After that, the second resurrection (of the unjust), and finally, a new heaven and earth, the new city descending from heaven, and we'll all live happily ever after. God and Jesus Christ will dwell WITH us. No more questions, sickness, evil, or any other bad thing.

It WILL happen, and it will be awesome.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ok let's grapple with this.

What if Satan is bound to the point he has no influence whatsoever?

What would the world be like if Jesus hadn't restored his kingdom yet on Earth, BUT Satan was bound and had 100% NO influence.

I know for one we'd still have to deal with fallen human beings, still wrestling with their flesh.

On the other hand we wouldn't have to deal with the devil.

BUT if it's just the devil that's bound, there may still be demons around.

So we'd be dealing with the flesh and then demons who are without a leader.

yep, and we will see all that in the 1000 years.

it is obvious demons without a leader do not have much influence. since the moment their leader is released all hell breaks lose.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

FWIW, (not much, probably) I agree with EG on this.

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Yes, that is metaphorical. He owns a lot of cattle. But I do not think the thousand years in Rev is metaphorical. I believe it will be a period of a thousand years.

I do not see how anyone could think that satan is currently bound. Look at the state of the world. Wars, famines, political unrest, terrorists, and on and on. If Jesus Christ was reigning, do you think he would allow those things? It says he will rule with a 'rod of iron". He will be in control. If he is reigning now, he certainly isn't exercising much control.

Zone, some people will make it through the trib. Matt 24:
21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Some people will make it through.

As far as who will be here during the 1000 years... We'll be here. We will return with Christ to fight armageddon (we win), and remain to I assume help him reign. The bible says that once Christians are gathered together, we will forever be with the Lord. So wherever he is, we will be. OT believers will be here. The first resurrection (of the just) will happen, and all the OT believers will get up. Also, the people who made it through the trib will be here. They will still be flesh and blood. Hence, they will be the ones procreating.

The devil will be bound.

Isaiah 65:17ff are talking about this period. It will be perfect living conditions. Utopia (I know, not a biblical term)

At the end of the thousand years, the devil will be loosed. Despite people living in perfect conditions, the devil will manage to put together a massive army to try and overthrow Jerusalem. But "and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

After that, the second resurrection (of the unjust), and finally, a new heaven and earth, the new city descending from heaven, and we'll all live happily ever after. God and Jesus Christ will dwell WITH us. No more questions, sickness, evil, or any other bad thing.

It WILL happen, and it will be awesome.

I personally can't wait till the last part.

Come quickly Lord jesus!

and yes your right. God is patient today. But one day God is going to say enough is enough. and we will see his wrath poured out.

what we see today is nothing like what the world will see then. WW2 will be like a summer vacation. it will be so bad then. Thats why jesus said this tribulation will be like nothing the world has ever seen.