Scripture Based Flat Earth Proposition

[Dino246]

Explain this:

Oh come on Gary, this is easy.

Mercury is visible more than half the time because it is not coincident with the surface of the sun. Rather, it is well away from the surface, which means it would be invisible only when the sun is between it and the Earth. At minimum, its orbit is 46 million Km around the sun which is only 1.39 million Km in diameter, which means it is only invisible while transiting behind, for a distance of 2 million Km or so at most.

Now... please step up and explain the eclipse.

 

[Lynx]

Oh come on Gary, this is easy.

Mercury is visible more than half the time because it is not coincident with the surface of the sun. Rather, it is well away from the surface, which means it would be invisible only when the sun is between it and the Earth. At minimum, its orbit is 46 million Km around the sun which is only 1.39 million Km in diameter, which means it is only invisible while transiting behind, for a distance of 2 million Km or so at most.

Now... please step up and explain the eclipse.

I figured Mercury was just in retrograde or something. As much as I hear the phrase Mercury is in retrograde, it seems like the poor planet can't stay out of retrograde.

 

[Sculpt]

Since I read your posts on your proposal, researched it, commented and discussed with you, would be willing to prayerfully review some brief material and give me your decided opinion?

I'd be glad to look it when I have time.

Great! Gen 1:14 says God made the stars to be used as signs, and indeed they do.

Please prayerfully review this video presentation from by Christian astronomer and Answers in Genisis fellow, Dr. Danny Faulkner (PhD in astronomy and Masters in physics, was professor USCL). He covers the origin of Flat Earth, Biblical references used by FE, and then he provides his own personal photos/time lapse of the night sky and explains how they display the signs of God's glorious spherical earth. These are observations anyone can do themselves.

Take your time with it. No rush. Ask God to show you the truth of his creation. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/live/289cGJ7hOkM?feature=shared

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[Romans34]

Great! Gen 1:14 says God made the stars to be used as signs, and indeed they do.

Please prayerfully review this video presentation from by Christian astronomer and Answers in Genisis fellow, Dr. Danny Faulkner (PhD in astronomy and Masters in physics, was professor USCL). He covers the origin of Flat Earth, Biblical references used by FE, and then he provides his own personal photos/time lapse of the night sky and explains how they display the signs of God's glorious spherical earth. These are observations anyone can do themselves.

Take your time with it. No rush. Ask God to show you the truth of his creation. Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/live/289cGJ7hOkM?feature=shared

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I watched the entire video and heard his argument for a spherical earth, though he really spent most of his time trying to disprove the flat earth. I'm afraid I have to say that what I noticed is that for the most part his explanations and defense against flat earth were based on the weakest arguments that some flat earthers use to bolster their argument (some of which I would NEVER use because they are so weak). And his arguments were weak as well. Many things he mentioned, explaining what the flat earther believes, verbally refuted it, while not really proving anything to the contrary. I want to propose for those that may be willing to reason with me, to take a particular train of thought one step at the time until we come to some conclusion that makes sense, but I will present this in another post as soon as I am able.

 

[Romans34]

Genesis 1:6-8

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Genesis 1:9-10

And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Since God placed the luminaries withIN the firmament . . .

**Note also that about 1000 years before the coming of Christ (over 1300 years after the flood)
king David declared that the waters were still there when he wrote,
“Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens”.

Now WITHOUT addressing where the windows of heaven were located, clouds, and rain, let's start with step one:

Long before the flood, even before God made man, when He created the expanse (firmament) that He called Heaven(s), and placed the luminaries withIN this expanse, did / does this expanse encapsulate the entire know 'universe' with all it's galaxies, stars, planets, sun, moon, etc.? For those that may be interested, I am only interested in taking this ONE STEP AT THE TIME, so please answer ONLY this first question, and then we will take it logically from there. Thank You!

 

[Sculpt]

Now WITHOUT addressing where the windows of heaven were located, clouds, and rain, let's start with step one:

Long before the flood, even before God made man, when He created the expanse (firmament) that He called Heaven(s), and placed the luminaries withIN this expanse, did / does this expanse encapsulate the entire know 'universe' with all it's galaxies, stars, planets, sun, moon, etc.? For those that may be interested, I am only interested in taking this ONE STEP AT THE TIME, so please answer ONLY this first question, and then we will take it logically from there. Thank You!

Let's pray about it. Let go of what we may have grasped with OUR own understanding of scripture or other sources. Let go, give it to God. This isn't about us. Let God reveal his creation to us. As Paul said, we need to stop eating baby food. Genisis reads God declared that He made the stars as signs. God is SOVEREREIGN of the stars.

 

[Romans34]

Let's pray about it. Let go of what we may have grasped with OUR own understanding of scripture or other sources. Let go, give it to God. This isn't about us. Let God reveal his creation to us.

Been there. Done that. I prayed. I gave it to God. I sought the truth. He showed it to me.

As Paul said, we need to stop eating baby food.

That's precisely the outcome I had hoped for in starting this thread. It is difficult for most to feed on solid food when all they've ever been fed is mush.

Hebrews 5:11-14, "Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

Those that are full grown are those who have trained habitually and are disciplined. And just as eating solid food must be made more palatable through the exercising of it, the mind and heart must be trained to accept the harshness of reality over the confortableness of fantasy.

Genisis reads God declared that He made the stars as signs.

He made them "for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years", which included the sun and moon. And the next verse says he placed them ALL in "the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so." He then restates His purpose for them in the next three verses.

So if you'll allow me to quote you:
"Take your time with it. No rush. Ask God to show you the truth of his creation."

So I'll wait for your answer (or anyone else's) to the very simple question that only requires a 'Yes' or 'No' answer. Then we'll take it from there one step at a time. This way, we don't get way out in left field off topic. For your benefit (and everyone else's) I'll restate the question here:

Long before the flood, even before God made man, when He created the expanse (firmament) that He called Heaven(s), and placed the luminaries withIN this expanse, did / does this expanse encapsulate the entire know 'universe' with all it's galaxies, stars, planets, sun, moon, etc.?

 

[Lynx]

"I prayed about it and got this answer."

"That's strange, cuz I prayed about it and got that answer."

I get a strong mental image of God listening to prayer, shaking his head dolefully and trying to change the subject.

 

[Dino246]

"I prayed about it and got this answer."

"That's strange, cuz I prayed about it and got that answer."

I get a strong mental image of God listening to prayer, shaking his head dolefully and trying to change the subject.

'Zackly. Because someone "prayed about it", they think that whatever they "receive" is from God. The idea that God expects us to use the brains He gave us escapes some. Unfortunately it's a low view of God.

 

[maxwel]

'Zackly. Because someone "prayed about it", they think that whatever they "receive" is from God. The idea that God expects us to use the brains He gave us escapes some. Unfortunately it's a low view of God.

Well... there IS a presumption in that sentence.

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[TabinRivCA]

Hope this helps:

 

[Dino246]

Well... there IS a presumption in that sentence.

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True. I presume that He gave me legs for walking, hands for working, eyes for seeing, ears for hearing, and a brain for thinking. I further presume that He did the same for my fellow humans. Shockingly crazy, I know.

 

[maxwel]

True. I presume that He gave me legs for walking, hands for working, eyes for seeing, ears for hearing, and a brain for thinking. I further presume that He did the same for my fellow humans. Shockingly crazy, I know.

Lol.
Anyway, I fully agree with your post #349.
I do not believe God gave us brains just so zombies would have something to snack on.
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[Sculpt]

Long before the flood, even before God made man, when He created the expanse (firmament) that He called Heaven(s), and placed the luminaries withIN this expanse, did / does this expanse encapsulate the entire know 'universe' with all it's galaxies, stars, planets, sun, moon, etc.? For those that may be interested, I am only interested in taking this ONE STEP AT THE TIME, so please answer ONLY this first question, and then we will take it logically from there. Thank You!

If we are defining the "entire known universe" as the entire expanse of the stars, moon, planets and the like, then yes, I think the plain reading of Gen 1:14 and what we see of God's creation, yes, they are (or are within), the expanse/firmament.

 

[Sculpt]

"I prayed about it and got this answer."

"That's strange, cuz I prayed about it and got that answer."

I get a strong mental image of God listening to prayer, shaking his head dolefully and trying to change the subject.

Well said. We pray for knowledge, understanding and wisdom. I think this can initially include being lead to, and gaining access to, information. Then God can help our minds/brains understanding the information we take in. Then God can help us decerns and test the information. Not all information we come to is correct. And finally, God can give us wisdom about the information. Wisdom is basically proper understanding and use of the information, which is partially a growing understanding of the bigger picture, structure and workings of the subject matter.

Of course, humans, God's people, the Church, etc, have always had a problem with some individuals thinking they received knowledge from God when they really did not. People can hear voices and see hallucinations. It's a brain disorder called schizophrenia. Just because someone prays for wisdom and understanding... it doesn't mean any voices they hear or thoughts that come in their mind are from God.

Not only that. Our understanding of scripture grows and changes. At an earlier time, we may understand a concept, chapter or verse a certain way... and then later we better understand the context and the book and Bible as a whole, and/or the meaning of the sentence structure or the words; and sometimes that changes what we initially thought it meant. It's an ongoing process.

Scripture is overflowing of people making mistakes, changing and learning, such as the apostle Paul. Scripture tells us no one is perfect. So, if one has never changed their mind about what a portion of scripture means... they are most likely suffering from pride, possessiveness, laziness or schizophrenia.

Scripture reads:
18:15- The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge, for the ears of the wise seek it out.

Chap 1- To the young man knowledge and discretion—
A wise man will hear and increase learning,
And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel

How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.

 

[GaryA]

There is no "special knowledge" - that is the whole point - it is the "scientific authority" that claims to have "special knowledge" that you do not possess - which you choose to believe rather than trusting your own observation with your own God-given senses. Flat Earth folks tell you the knowledge is free - [that] all you have to do is look at it - but, you would rather live in the MATRIX with your ears, eyes, and mind closed.

You really are deceived if you directly equate or relate 'highly educated' to/with [the] 'real truth' without thinking - never questioning - never verifying - what you have been told.

And, therein lies the real problem - people don't want to think for themselves. And, they would rather place "highly educated" people on a pedestal rather than hold them accountable to the claims that they make.

It is not about "special" knowledge, it is about expertise, I am not sure how that can be denied. A physicists has expertise in the area of physics right?

There are scientific/mathematical realities, not just about the shape of the earth but in general, no?

It is about "special knowledge" - when I have more time, I will see about writing a post to explain it...

The absolute majority of people do not learn physics beyond the "simple basic stuff" from a high school level education.

The "special knowledge" that I am referring to is that which goes "well beyond" that level - which the "scientific authority" claims to have at an 'expert' level - about [virtually] all things, no less. And - the truth is - a great deal of that which is "beyond that level" is [simply] "made up" - having the 'math' to "back it up" - serving as "proof" of the "reality" of it.

What you need to realize is that - to a great degree - the 'illustration' of them having all of that "special knowledge" is nothing but smoke and mirrors - to give the common folk the impression that they are "the authority" on all-things 'science' - so as to convince you to believe whatever they tell you.

I am not saying that none of it is true; rather, that a lot of "make believe" is mixed in with the true to create the intended effect in your mind - acceptance of - and a high regard for - the 'authority'.

When I say that there is no "special knowledge", I mean that the common folk - in general - have all they need to examine the real evidence - without any necessity of obtaining the truth from the 'authority'.

In other words - you are the 'authority' - insomuch as you are willing to "unbrainwash" yourself so that you can see what is plainly right in front of you.

All of us were "brainwashed" from birth - taught to "not see" the truth about the world we live in. And, until a person is "unbrainwashed" - they will continue to see what they were taught to see and not the true reality.

With regard to 'expertise' - some-is-some-is-not. A great deal of this is nothing but smoke and mirrors. Not saying all. It is just not what most people have been led to believe. I can deny every-day-of-the-week some of the [so-called] 'expertise' that is just an exaggerated 'prop' to sell 'authority' - because I know it is fake.

You need to understand that - "just because the math works" - does not mean that the concept that the math is being used to 'illustrate' is true. Math is a very good illustrator of concepts but does not itself prove anything but the 'validity' of the concept in mathematical terms. If the concept does not actually match reality - while the math may be good, the concept is still false.

At this point, you will probably think to say:

"But, we all know that 2 + 2 = 4."

The 'math' does not make it true - the thing is true without the math - the math only illustrates the concept. The concept is true. Understand?

I am not saying that "all math is fake" or some such silly thing; rather, I am saying that there are things that math is used to "prove" that do not actually match reality.

Math is a 'language' that illustrates concepts/ideas - whether or not they are actually true.

In a nutshell, I am saying that you do not need "special knowledge" to recognize what is true. However, the "brainwashing" you have received all of your life can get in the way...

A person has to want to see the truth - swallow their pride - "unbrainwash" themselves - before they can see it...

"Truth is available only to those who have the courage to question whatever they have been taught." - (author unknown)

 

[GaryA]

So if I am following this post correctly, the people who have special knowledge are actually the the flat earthers and they are also the "you" in your second paragraph?

I am trying to understand the rational for this belief I guess.
I find it a bit baffling, but I do not see it as the worse thing a person could believe.

He is using sarcasm to attempt to discredit the Flat Earth model.

 

[GaryA]

I was just thinking about this actually, and was thinking to post this very same sentiment.
Considering the state of the world at this moment and what people have chosen to defend belief in flat earth is rather innocuous.

I have over the years been intrigued by this model, I just never can find the time to really learn about it.

In short, the Flat Earth model is this:

~ you live in a giant terrarium
~ the earth does not move and has a plane surface (in the largest sense)
~ the sun, moon, and stars circle overhead under the 'dome' (top of terrarium)
~ the Bible says nothing against this model and everything for it to support it

What did this FE model do about the eclipse? Did it predict the eclipse, and if so what calculations were used?

Explain this:

How is it that we on Earth can see Mercury at night? It seems to me that anytime it is night we on Earth would be looking the opposite direction from Mercury.

You would think that half of the year for Mercury (88 days) it would be on the other side of the sun from the Earth and would never be visible. At the very least you would think 44 out of every 88 days it would not be visible. But from 2008 to 2012, for those 5 years there were only 7 months when it was not visible. That is 7/60 or just slightly more than 10% of the time.

View attachment 263230

Wait, what? What does Mercury have to do with my question about the eclipse?

Millions of people observed the eclipse. The eclipse was predicted with great accuracy and precision, the two of which are not to be confused with each other, by calculations involving the earth and other planets revolving around the Sun and the moon revolving around the Earth.

How well did flat Earth theory predict the eclipse, with what degree of accuracy and/or precision?

Leave Mercury out of this. This ain't Mercury's party.

I made the "explain this" post to make a point about how everyone always seems to want to demand an answer from a flat-earther.

I do not appreciate others trying to drag me into such things while I am only trying to help someone else who actually wants to obtain a better understanding of the Flat Earth model.

This is not my thread - and, I am trying my best to not derail it.

Your question is a very good one - there is no doubt about it. And, I cannot say that I can give you a satisfactory answer. However, this in no way "undoes" anything where 'evidence' of the Flat Earth model is concerned.

If you or anyone is completely satisfied with the Ball Earth model upon the realization that you do not understand the answer to a single question about the Flat Earth model - well - do you understand everything there is to know about the Ball Earth model???

And - that is my point concerning Ball Earth folks "demanding" answers from Flat Earth folks.

I cannot answer every question about the Flat Earth model.

Can you answer every question about the Ball Earth model?

(Apparently not - I have a short list of 'conundrums' in another thread that Ball Earth folks cannot answer.)

 

[GaryA]

Oh come on Gary, this is easy.

Mercury is visible more than half the time because it is not coincident with the surface of the sun. Rather, it is well away from the surface, which means it would be invisible only when the sun is between it and the Earth. At minimum, its orbit is 46 million Km around the sun which is only 1.39 million Km in diameter, which means it is only invisible while transiting behind, for a distance of 2 million Km or so at most.

Now... please step up and explain the eclipse.

See post #358 as to the reason I made the "explain this" post.

 

[GaryA]

Let's pray about it. Let go of what we may have grasped with OUR own understanding of scripture or other sources. Let go, give it to God. This isn't about us. Let God reveal his creation to us. As Paul said, we need to stop eating baby food. Genisis reads God declared that He made the stars as signs. God is SOVEREREIGN of the stars.

Pray that God will help you let go of the "brainwashing" you have received your entire life - so that you may "escape the MATRIX" (as it were) and see the true reality. The 'food' you have been fed all of your life is laced with 'toxic' lies. Biblical 'food' is full of truth - if you choose to digest it properly.