Welcome to the Wonderful World of Rejection

[SteveEpperson]

If you've read my last post, you will know that I am a big proponent of non-sexual flirting as a first step to getting a date with someone who interests you. Flirting can be a great way to start a conversation and show that person you are not only safe to be around, but you also can be interesting and fun as well.

But here comes the bad news. Let me explain with a quick story.

My first job right out of the military was as a factory representative for a major home improvement company. That's code for "salesman." But I didn't mind since I figured I would need sales training if I ever wanted to start my own business.

The brutal reality of the sales game hit me right between the eyes the first month in. I was told that, on a good month, I could expect to get only four yesses for every 10 sales presentations. Again, that was considered a superlative effort.

That means I had to endure six no's on the way to only four yesses. But as any good salesperson does, I learned not to take the constant rejection personally. There are many reasons why people wouldn't sign on the dotted line, many of which had to do with what was in their bank account at the time.

The same principle applies to flirting

Flirting with a woman to ultimately get the first date is a numbers game, just like in sales. After all, you are selling yourself as someone who is safe to be with and potentially has something to offer up in a relationship.

You are going to be rejected often, and sometimes, it's downright brutal. But again, please don't take it personally.

Maybe the woman you are trying to flirt with just received the bad news someone in her family has died, or they were recently diagnosed with cancer. It could be she's simply having a bad day. Whatever the reason, your timing was off and you should quickly move on.

Two different approaches to handling rejection:

John: last week, he got a firm "maybe" from Susan to go out with him. He figures that this week before the service starts, he'll ask her again. After all, he's been praying every night that this "maybe" will turn into a yes. He's been alone so long that the Lord will deliver Susan to him as a potential wife.

So, he boldly walks up to her and says, "Hey Susan, have you thought about what we talked about last week?"

Susan replies, "Um, what did we talk about last week?"

"You know, about us maybe going out together sometime."

"Oh. You know, John, I'm just not ready to date right now. I hope you understand."

She really means that she is ready to date anyone except John. After all, he comes across as being needy and depressed all the time. She's just not sure the Lord has equipped her to handle him.

Of course, John is crushed. He sees Susan's rejection as obliterating all hope of finding a wife for himself. He sinks further into depression and says he'll never attempt to ask another woman out again.

David: David is feeling pretty fired up today. He's just had a wonderful conversation with his friend's cousin, Lisa, who is in town for only a week and decided to attend church today. The fact that she would take time out of her busy morning to talk to David gave him the confidence to start a conversation later on with Susan, who he'd had his eye on for a while. He sits down a few seats from Susan and says, "What do you wanna bet the pastor has worn that same shirt for the past six Sundays."

Susan replies, "What, are you a freakn' moron? What kind of a joke is that to make about our pastor? Besides, he's my uncle."

Oops, David says to himself. That didn't go so well. He apologizes as he gets up to find a chair someplace else.

He doesn't take Susan's rejection personally, especially since he knows he made a mistake, and she has every right to be upset. He chalks this one up to a learning experience and later joins his friend and cousin, Lisa, for a burger at his favorite local fast food place.

 

[Lynx]

With what you said in the last thread, I bet you're a level 7 Jedi expert at taking rejection. Practice makes perfect.

 

[RodB651]

We really need a face palm emoji here. We really do!

 

[seoulsearch]

If you've read my last post, you will know that I am a big proponent of non-sexual flirting as a first step to getting a date with someone who interests you. Flirting can be a great way to start a conversation and show that person you are not only safe to be around, but you also can be interesting and fun as well.

But here comes the bad news. Let me explain with a quick story.

My first job right out of the military was as a factory representative for a major home improvement company. That's code for "salesman." But I didn't mind since I figured I would need sales training if I ever wanted to start my own business.

The brutal reality of the sales game hit me right between the eyes the first month in. I was told that, on a good month, I could expect to get only four yesses for every 10 sales presentations. Again, that was considered a superlative effort.

That means I had to endure six no's on the way to only four yesses. But as any good salesperson does, I learned not to take the constant rejection personally. There are many reasons why people wouldn't sign on the dotted line, many of which had to do with what was in their bank account at the time.

The same principle applies to flirting

Flirting with a woman to ultimately get the first date is a numbers game, just like in sales. After all, you are selling yourself as someone who is safe to be with and potentially has something to offer up in a relationship.

You are going to be rejected often, and sometimes, it's downright brutal. But again, please don't take it personally.

Maybe the woman you are trying to flirt with just received the bad news someone in her family has died, or they were recently diagnosed with cancer. It could be she's simply having a bad day. Whatever the reason, your timing was off and you should quickly move on.

Two different approaches to handling rejection:

John: last week, he got a firm "maybe" from Susan to go out with him. He figures that this week before the service starts, he'll ask her again. After all, he's been praying every night that this "maybe" will turn into a yes. He's been alone so long that the Lord will deliver Susan to him as a potential wife.

So, he boldly walks up to her and says, "Hey Susan, have you thought about what we talked about last week?"

Susan replies, "Um, what did we talk about last week?"

"You know, about us maybe going out together sometime."

"Oh. You know, John, I'm just not ready to date right now. I hope you understand."

She really means that she is ready to date anyone except John. After all, he comes across as being needy and depressed all the time. She's just not sure the Lord has equipped her to handle him.

Of course, John is crushed. He sees Susan's rejection as obliterating all hope of finding a wife for himself. He sinks further into depression and says he'll never attempt to ask another woman out again.

David: David is feeling pretty fired up today. He's just had a wonderful conversation with his friend's cousin, Lisa, who is in town for only a week and decided to attend church today. The fact that she would take time out of her busy morning to talk to David gave him the confidence to start a conversation later on with Susan, who he'd had his eye on for a while. He sits down a few seats from Susan and says, "What do you wanna bet the pastor has worn that same shirt for the past six Sundays."

Susan replies, "What, are you a freakn' moron? What kind of a joke is that to make about our pastor? Besides, he's my uncle."

Oops, David says to himself. That didn't go so well. He apologizes as he gets up to find a chair someplace else.

He doesn't take Susan's rejection personally, especially since he knows he made a mistake, and she has every right to be upset. He chalks this one up to a learning experience and later joins his friend and cousin, Lisa, for a burger at his favorite local fast food place.

Hi Steve! I'm enjoying your "Dating Tutorials" series of threads. And thank you for your military service!

I had made the observation in your Flirting thread that (with the given example in the first post,) I would be a bit wary of a grown man asking me if I'd seen any blue horses running around the church.

I was thinking that this might seem unfair to the men out reading along, as they might think, "Well it's hard enough to talk to a woman, let alone trying to think of an opening line..." I was also thinking of comments I've heard from men who have said it's also unfair that men are expected to make the first move.

I know in your other thread you advised to never, ever let the woman lead the pace of the relationship, so I realize this might be frowned upon, but I thought I'd give a few examples of when I (as a woman) got rejected various times when I had skin in the game.

Reading these threads reminded me of two times I tried asking guys out at church (different times of course!) In your other thread, you said to date several women at once, so I'm wondering how you feel about women dating several men at once. I've never dated more than one guy at a time and wouldn't feel comfortable doing it personally. And if I found out a guy was dating several women at once as well as me, I would feel like I was just a number in line of merchandise that was being tested out (if even in conversation,) but I understand different people have different philosophies, especially when dating online. (I personally see "talking" to several people at once as being a little different than "dating" several people at one time, but I know the lines get blurred and it can be complicated.)

Anyway, the times I tried asking guys out at church was when I was involved in a class or group, so I had gotten to know a bit about them through regular meetings and interaction. I would just ask if they wanted to go out for coffee or lunch sometime (and I was fully prepared to pay if they said yes as well -- I don't believe on putting the entire burden on the man) but neither accepted.

One guy was our class leader and I don't know if it was me personally or if he just felt it wouldn't be right in what was essentially a teacher/student situation, though we were only a few years difference in age. The other guy simply said he already had a girlfriend (who apparently didn't go to our church.)

At other times (both in real life and online,) I was often told that the guy was only looking to date women of specific races, and since I wasn't a member of their preferred race, I didn't qualify (not always in those words and not always that polite, but you know how it goes.) I'm sure there were also a hundred thousand other reasons why I didn't qualify or meet someone's standards, as it happens to everyone, and I understand.

I also had at least two incidences in which I asked a guy to a work or school event and he said no -- one said he had to work during that time -- but in each case, I later found out he went with another girl.

And no, I wasn't trying to ask every guy out in sight, lol. This was over about a 15-year span, so it really was once in a blue moon type of thing. At the time, yeah, these were terrible experiences, especially when I was very young and found out they'd rejected me for someone else. I felt like hot pokers were being jabbed through my chest, but as one gets older, I suppose rejection, though always a bit painful, just starts to seem like a part (or way) of life.

But God got me through, and was gracious enough to grant me some awesome friends along the way (many of them online) to help ease some of pain of feeling like an empty void.

As with all things, it's a work in progress for me. But I just wanted to share this so that Christian guys out there can be assured that we ladies go through rejection as well, and know how much it stings, even though it doesn't stop the cycle.

Over time, I've also learned that sometimes rejection can be for a very good reason we are unaware of in the moment. I later found out that one of the guys I asked out at church had a serious problem with alcohol, and I'm pretty sure I would not have been able to be the person he needed, so his rejection, while painful, was most likely a blessing for both of us.

Thanks for taking the time to make these threads! I'm sure they're a lot of work and I have been enjoying reading the responses. Looking forward to future installments!

 

[HeIsHere]

The same principle applies to flirting

I would say it really does not apply at all.

Maybe when interacting with women in conversation rather than I am investing your time and energy towards them to get something in return you try just being more selfless with a genuine interest in the other person expecting nothing in return.

 

[SteveEpperson]

Before I respond to any replies on this thread, I want to thank the moderators for allowing me to post such a controversial topic. My heart is broken over those who have given up on finding a spouse. Marriage is truly a gift from God, but before that happens, there must be a connection between a man and a woman. The same techniques that are used for ungodly, worldly dating can be turned around and used to honor our King and glorify Him with a new, healthy, biblical marriage.

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28.

I pray that any advice I give going forward is biblically based and honors our King.

For let him who wants to enjoy life and see good days keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech" 1 Peter 3:10

 

[SteveEpperson]

I had made the observation in your Flirting thread that (with the given example in the first post,) I would be a bit wary of a grown man asking me if I'd seen any blue horses running around the church.

Sure. I'll address that in my next post. Silly "pickup lines" may not be appropriate anyway for some church settings, and I admit that. There is one universal conversation opener that would truly honor God in all situations, and I'll reveal that in my next post.

I would love to expand on that now, but I gotta get ready for church. If we're late, they put us in front of the congregation and make us recite selected verses from Leviticus by heart.

 

[Lynx]

Sure. I'll address that in my next post. Silly "pickup lines" may not be appropriate anyway for some church settings, and I admit that. There is one universal conversation opener that would truly honor God in all situations, and I'll reveal that in my next post.

I would love to expand on that now, but I gotta get ready for church. If we're late, they put us in front of the congregation and make us recite selected verses from Leviticus by heart.

Could be worse, I guess. They don't make you quote Song of Solomon.

 

[cinder]

Before I respond to any replies on this thread, I want to thank the moderators for allowing me to post such a controversial topic. My heart is broken over those who have given up on finding a spouse. Marriage is truly a gift from God, but before that happens, there must be a connection between a man and a woman. The same techniques that are used for ungodly, worldly dating can be turned around and used to honor our King and glorify Him with a new, healthy, biblical marriage.

I've found that in most areas of life, you can use the same things that ungodly people do and get a different, God honoring result is really bad advice. God's work has to be done in God's ways and it's perfectly possible for two Christians married to each other to have a marriage that doesn't look anything like what we would consider a Christian marriage.

 

[SteveEpperson]

I was thinking that this might seem unfair to the men out reading along, as they might think, "Well it's hard enough to talk to a woman, let alone trying to think of an opening line..." I was also thinking of comments I've heard from men who have said it's also unfair that men are expected to make the first move.

Like I said in my prev reply to you, I will address this in my next post. There is only one opener you really need, and I will explain how it works then.

Reading these threads reminded me of two times I tried asking guys out at church (different times of course!) In your other thread, you said to date several women at once, so I'm wondering how you feel about women dating several men at once.

You bring up a great point. I think we need to define the word "date." To the world, it is just a conduit for a man to try and have a physical relationship with a woman right outa the gate.

For Christians seeking a long-term, committed relationship, followed by marriage, a first date is meeting for coffee or lunch at a public location. It's simply a time to get to know each other. The romance really hasn't even started yet, although I advise men to "get with it" as soon as possible so both of you can "get off the market," so to speak.

For these reasons, both parties are free to see whomever they wish until they make a verbal commitment, and better yet, one to God.

I've never dated more than one guy at a time and wouldn't feel comfortable doing it personally.

Not trying to judge, but was there physical love involved? If there was, women almost always view that as a committed relationship. Since there's no physical love until marriage in my program, the commitment isn't quite as strong, unless both parties decide to remain exclusive.

Anyway, the times I tried asking guys out at church was when I was involved in a class or group, so I had gotten to know a bit about them through regular meetings and interaction. I would just ask if they wanted to go out for coffee or lunch sometime (and I was fully prepared to pay if they said yes as well -- I don't believe on putting the entire burden on the man) but neither accepted.

As we say in the sales profession, you're going for "the close" too early. In other words, don't ask for the date right away. Both men and women make this mistake. Instead, show your interest by simply showing interest in the guy. That's all it takes for a woman. You really don't need to flirt like a man would. Again, I will give you that one opening question in my next post that you can ask any man to show your interest-- all while avoiding coming across as desperate or needy.

If you say this "line" with genuineness and sincerity, you can gain the confidence needed to ask multiple men out at once.

At other times (both in real life and online,) I was often told that the guy was only looking to date women of specific races, and since I wasn't a member of their preferred race, I didn't qualify (not always in those words and not always that polite, but you know how it goes.) I'm sure there were also a hundred thousand other reasons why I didn't qualify or meet someone's standards, as it happens to everyone, and I understand.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm old enough to remember phone dating, and online dating is even worse. Men receive height restrictions a lot, while women receive almost everything else. It's absurd.

I have a whole other section in my head for online dating, so stay tuned.

Thanks for reading and responding. I am sad that so many people on the singles forum are suffering in quiet separation, and if I can help just one person, God has blessed us both.

 

[seoulsearch]

Not trying to judge, but was there physical love involved? If there was, women almost always view that as a committed relationship. Since there's no physical love until marriage in my program, the commitment isn't quite as strong, unless both parties decide to remain exclusive.

As we say in the sales profession, you're going for "the close" too early. In other words, don't ask for the date right away. Both men and women make this mistake. Instead, show your interest by simply showing interest in the guy. That's all it takes for a woman. You really don't need to flirt like a man would. Again, I will give you that one opening question in my next post that you can ask any man to show your interest-- all while avoiding coming across as desperate or needy.

(Just catching any readers up to speed -- Steve had suggested that men should date several women at a time in another thread; I'm a woman who said she wouldn't date multiple people at one time; Steve is asking if it's because of "physical love.")

No, when I talk about dating, I don't mean sex.

To me, it goes back to what the definitions of dating would be, which I know varies greatly these days. I'm very old-fashioned and yet maybe too modernized at the same time. Hanging out or spending time with someone isn't necessarily dating to me because most of the people I know hang out with others, even of the opposite sex, on a regular basis.

But people who are holding hands or kissing, even without going further, I personally consider that dating and that's where I would start drawing lines. So if that's what you meant by physical love (holding hands/kissing), then yes, but if you meant sex, then no, because it wasn't involved.

I would not be spending time with multiple men, holding hands with them, and kissing them, and I would not date a guy who was snuggling up and kissing (even if there was nothing else) with several other women in addition to seeing me. But that's just me.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer back, but out of curiosity, what age bracket do you have in mind for this dating series?

When I read your posts, I'm guessing you're wanting to speak to a 20-to-30-something audience? A good number of the singles population here on the forum are around mid-30's to 60. My own peer group would be 40's - 50's, though I have many friends in their mid-30's as well. Most have been married before or have an extensive knowledge of dating, if anything else, by lifelong observation (and being very selective because of the wreckage they've or gone through.)

I went through an unwanted divorce in my 20's (he remarried someone else,) and some of the people who patted me on the head then and told me, "You're just a baby, you have plenty of time," and tried giving dating advice are now either divorced themselves, or are widows and facing singlehood for the first time in decades.

Because many of the people here have been single a very long time, I'm very interested in hearing what tips you have for those 35-50 and older, because it's a much different landscape than 25.

 

[seoulsearch]

As we say in the sales profession, you're going for "the close" too early. In other words, don't ask for the date right away. Both men and women make this mistake. Instead, show your interest by simply showing interest in the guy. That's all it takes for a woman. You really don't need to flirt like a man would. Again, I will give you that one opening question in my next post that you can ask any man to show your interest-- all while avoiding coming across as desperate or needy.

I had to smile at this piece of advice.

In most cases, the only reason I asked the guy out was BECAUSE I had gotten to know him, usually through regular interactions like work or church classes -- so the interest was far shown already.

The stories of rejection I was telling was when I was very young (late high school through about 30 years of age.) As I said in my last post, these days, my peer group is people in their 40's to 50's, though I do get asked out by guys in their 30's.

The last date I had was quite a while back, and again, I was the one to ask him out. It was a guy I had met who was part of a team that I had hired to do a major landscaping project on my lawn. We dated for a while, to the point where he asked about marriage.

But God seemed to have other plans, in a situation I find to be quite frequent with other singles -- sometimes, God calls us to follow and fulfill the needs of our families first (in my case, my parents,) which resulted in a cross-country difference that couldn't be resolved.

I know many singles who are single not out of lack of trying, but because they are in helping to raise others' children, taking care of aging parents, or are in other situations that God seems to have appointed them to as being more important than dating or seeking marriage.

 

[Lynx]

I know many singles who are single not out of lack of trying, but because they are in helping to raise others' children, taking care of aging parents, or are in other situations that God seems to have appointed them to as being more important than dating or seeking marriage.

Yeah and besides... We already got enough people on the planet right now. They're always yakking about overpopulation.

 

[SteveEpperson]

But people who are holding hands or kissing, even without going further, I personally consider that dating and that's where I would start drawing lines

So, be sure to make that clear before going further so there are no misunderstandings.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer back, but out of curiosity, what age bracket do you have in mind for this dating series?

The principles of dating and romance are for those 18 to 108.

Most have been married before or have an extensive knowledge of dating, if anything else, by lifelong observation (and being very selective because of the wreckage they've or gone through.)

And most people have received bad information over the years, especially from well-meaning church leaders.

Because many of the people here have been single a very long time, I'm very interested in hearing what tips you have for those 35-50 and older, because it's a much different landscape than 25.

In some respects, it is, but the basic rules of attraction are the same. While most "older" men would not use the same corny line David used to meet Susan, my question is, why not? If anything, women over 35 want to be pursued just as much -- if not more-- than a girl in her late teens or early twenties. The sense of needing affirmation and being wanted is a life-long desire for most women.

 

[SteveEpperson]

I've found that in most areas of life, you can use the same things that ungodly people do and get a different, God honoring result is really bad advice.

I understand what you're saying, but you seem to be twisting my words a bit. Let me clarify with an illustration.

Suppose you have two investment companies: Company X and Company Y.

Both companies take in client money for long-term investment. Both promise to be good stewards of the money while trying to maximize returns. Let's say, for illustration purposes, that both companies use the exact same investments and yield a whopping 20 percent return in the first year.

Company X sends the 20 percent to all the clients as promised. However, Company Y takes all the money and sticks it in a secret bank account in the Carribean.

Both companies used legal, ethical investment vehicles to gain 20 percent. The difference is in what they did with the result. Company X did the God-honoring thing and paid what was due the client. But Company Y used the results to commit sin.

It's the same with the dating and romance techniques I use. The world says to use them to gain a physical relationship without any commitment, while I use these strategies to help those who want to honor God in marriage find the right spouse.

 

[seoulsearch]

So, be sure to make that clear before going further so there are no misunderstandings. The principles of dating and romance are for those 18 to 108. And most people have received bad information over the years, especially from well-meaning church leaders.

No worries about me not making myself clear. While it's a skill that's always being developed, I think it also comes with time and experience. I have many situations in which I could go back in time and explain myself more thoroughly, but I can only pray to do better as I move forward in life.

In some respects, it is, but the basic rules of attraction are the same. While most "older" men would not use the same corny line David used to meet Susan, my question is, why not? If anything, women over 35 want to be pursued just as much -- if not more-- than a girl in her late teens or early twenties. The sense of needing affirmation and being wanted is a life-long desire for most women.

This creates an interesting dynamic to the discussion of dating in these threads.

Do you think 40-year-old men/women should approach each other differently than those in their 20's? I'm just thinking of the differences of what would have caught my eye then vs. now. When I was 20 something, I would have easily been drawn to the guy who made everyone laugh. These days, while a sense of humor is still important, I'd be much more drawn to the guy who could make me think, but without being pretentious or preachy.

When I was 20ish, I would have been overwhelmed by the thought of, "But I can't spend the next 20 years and beyond alone." And at the time, it feels very real that you can't. But when life, or God, or your own choices (or a combination of all three) force you to go through exactly what you fear most, it can give you a very different perspective.

Rejection still stings and always will. But these days, if I'm rejected, I know it's not the end of the world (back then, I didn't,) so it's a lot easier to scrape the remnants of my dignity up off the ground and keep on walking.

You have me thinking about the different conversations I'd have with those in different age ranges/stages of life regarding dating.

I'm guessing that younger groups would need a lot more help in dealing with some of the newness of it all (a "starter pack" if you will,) while older singles might need more help with feeling jaded/bitter/distrusting (if applicable, especially due to past relationships.) Not that there aren't any crossovers of course, but I'm thinking of the differences/new sets of issues I encounter as I cross more and more life milestones off the list.

Do you think there is a need for such distinctions (differences in age/experiences) in discussions like this, or is it more useful to address the audience as a general collective group?

 

[SteveEpperson]

I would say it really does not apply at all.

I believe it does. Sure, a man who is confident with women and can talk to them with ease will get more dates than a man who is unsure of himself or comes across as needy and depressed. But even the guy women find unattractive will eventually land a first date.

I'm trying to make a point here: do not give up on the first rejection. But if he gives up only after a few tries, he can be stuck in a lonely morass, as some men are on this forum. You and I certainly don't want a brother or sister in Christ to suffer any longer with loneliness and depression simply because they've received bad advice over the years, do we?

Let me ask, what's better for a professional baseball player's statistics: going to bat one time or 100 times?

Maybe when interacting with women in conversation rather than I am investing your time and energy towards them to get something in return you try just being more selfless with a genuine interest in the other person expecting nothing in return.

Let me ask this. When you go for a job interview, what do you expect in return? A job, right?

It would be highly unseasonable to say, "God, I'm going to sit right here on this couch watching reruns of my favorite TV shows until you send me a job," right? Everyone knows that's not the way it works.

So, why do we expect God to wave a magic wand and conjure up a Godly spouse out of thin air while we sit back and do nothing? That would be unreasonable, also.

When we invest time and energy in our children, we expect to get something in return. What is that something? God-honoring children!

It's the same thing here. A new relationship with the opposite sex that turns into a God-honoring marriage doesn't just happen. It takes work on our part. For our efforts, along with much prayer, we expect to:

1. Make a new connection
2. Get a first date to see if we are compatible
3. Develop the relationship (hopefully under the auspices of the local church)
4. Become engaged to be married
5. Get married in the church according to God's ordinances

That's a lot of steps! And with each one, we expect a "result" so we can move on to the next phase of the relationship.

 

[Lynx]

I understand what you're saying, but you seem to be twisting my words a bit.

I guarantee she is not. Precision is kind of cinder's thing. Twisting words is antithetical to her entire MO.

Suppose you have two investment companies: Company X and Company Y.

Both companies take in client money for long-term investment. Both promise to be good stewards of the money while trying to maximize returns. Let's say, for illustration purposes, that both companies use the exact same investments and yield a whopping 20 percent return in the first year.

Company X sends the 20 percent to all the clients as promised. However, Company Y takes all the money and sticks it in a secret bank account in the Carribean.

Both companies used legal, ethical investment vehicles to gain 20 percent. The difference is in what they did with the result. Company X did the God-honoring thing and paid what was due the client. But Company Y used the results to commit sin.

It's the same with the dating and romance techniques I use. The world says to use them to gain a physical relationship without any commitment, while I use these strategies to help those who want to honor God in marriage find the right spouse.

The problem is, if both A and B are dumping toxic waste in the river, it doesn't matter what they do with the profits. There is still toxic waste in the river.

If you use the world's ways you get the world's results. It doesn't matter how you intend to use them, it still generates the world's toxic waste.

 

[CarriePie]

No, when I talk about dating, I don't mean sex.

To me, it goes back to what the definitions of dating would be, which I know varies greatly these days. I'm very old-fashioned and yet maybe too modernized at the same time. Hanging out or spending time with someone isn't necessarily dating to me because most of the people I know hang out with others, even of the opposite sex, on a regular basis.

But people who are holding hands or kissing, even without going further, I personally consider that dating and that's where I would start drawing lines. So if that's what you meant by physical love (holding hands/kissing), then yes, but if you meant sex, then no, because it wasn't involved.

I would not be spending time with multiple men, holding hands with them, and kissing them, and I would not date a guy who was snuggling up and kissing (even if there was nothing else) with several other women in addition to seeing me. But that's just me.

I'm old fashioned also. I personally don't believe in premarital sex, so dating or relationships certainly don't include sex when I'm concerned. Once in a relationship though, I very much believe non-sexual intimacy is a great thing. As long as it is within the comfort level of both persons. Holding hands and kissing in particular are a must...or else, I'd think it was just a friendship.

I definitely would not spend time with multiple men either, especially doing anything physical with multiple men. I also wouldn't be involved with a man who was physical with another woman or multiple women. I am not polyamorous. But, you know what, several years ago I had a guy ask me to be in a poly relationship with him and another woman. I exclaimed, "No way!" Then he proceeded to explain to me why it was a good idea. He wanted me to be the romantic/physical part of the relationship. The other woman was supposed to be the nonromantic part of the relationship All his explaining did was make me even more repulsed by the idea of that sort of relationship lol

 

[seoulsearch]

Not trying to judge, but was there physical love involved? If there was, women almost always view that as a committed relationship. Since there's no physical love until marriage in my program, the commitment isn't quite as strong, unless both parties decide to remain exclusive.

Just out of curiosity, since I said I wouldn't date multiple men at once and you automatically asked if it was because sex was involved, and I said no, I consider physical affection (holding hands and kissing) as dating and would not be doing this with several men while "trying to get to know them" as a part of "dating."

In your Flirting thread, you advocated that men date several women at once. With this in mind, do you believe men are also allowed to be kissing and holding hands with all these women as well? Even if it doesn't go any further than that? I'm picturing David getting to a point where he's taking Susan out on Friday, holding her hand and having a light make-out session with her (because who really stops with just one kiss?), then picking up Cindy the next night on a date and doing the same things with her.

As I've stated, I wouldn't be comfortable with this so in the spirit of previous posts in which we talk about the definition of "dating," I would like to know your own definitions.

For over a year I've been in several financial Discord chats which are predictably 99.9% men. These aren't Christian chats, though some do identify as Christian, but most are young (20''s - 30's,) high earners, and on the path to what they believe is success. Many have talked about wanting to be "Passport Bros" -- going to countries with a lower cost of living than the USA like in Asia and Latin America, and dating/sleeping with whatever women they fancy, not only because they want more submissive women, but because their money will go a lot further when trying to impress them. Some are already living this lifestyle and advising the others on the best places to go and "the escort services with the hottest girls."

But yet, some still want families and possibly a wife (but to be able to continue to play around as much as they want,) and while they want to be able to sleep around with wild abandon, they still want beautiful, "pure" virginal women to have their children and raise their families. I understand that this is a cultural thing that has been around since the beginning of time, but of course, as Christians, we strive to go against the grain.

To me, dating multiple women (or women dating multiple men) and kissing/making out with several people over time is the watered down, Christian equivalent as this. It's still people wanting to test the waters, push the limits, and tip toe up to the boundaries of physical affection/intimacy that they can get away with but "without sinning," yet still wanting someone "pure" to settle down with and "have the real thing" when they marry.

I understand that my view will be seen as stodgy and ultra conservative by some, but I'm not interested in a guy who has kissed/made out with 50 women (and as we singles get older, it can be really difficult to find people with "low numbers.") I know some will balk at this but if flipped around, how many Christian men want to marry a woman who's made out with 50 guys, even if she didn't sleep with a single one?

Because of this, we all know it's very important to have boundaries when dating, so I was wondering what you consider the boundaries to be for physical affection if a Christian man is dating several women, and at once.