There will be no Rapture!!!
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So, what it seems you are saying here ^ is that, "They Resurrect and then caught up in the clouds"... but NOT "TO HEAVEN" (in your view).
Am I reading you right this time?
So (I assume, by what you've put, in response to my question) that you're suggesting that the text itself does not read:
"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them." Rev11:12
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/11/12/t_concif_1178012
...because, according to your viewpoint, there IS NO "rapture TO HEAVEN" passage, not even this Rev11:12 CONTEXT (which according to you speaks of "congregation of believers" all over the world, being "raptured" [according to you] pre-wrath [per your viewpoint]... but somehow, also according to you, NOT "TO HEAVEN"... How do you explain this seeming discrepancy?? Because it is a big one, from what I can tell!)
[for the readers: FTR, I do NOT see this Rev11 passage as a "rapture [G726 - SNATCH]" passage]
Am I reading you right this time?
So (I assume, by what you've put, in response to my question) that you're suggesting that the text itself does not read:
"And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them." Rev11:12
-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/11/12/t_concif_1178012
...because, according to your viewpoint, there IS NO "rapture TO HEAVEN" passage, not even this Rev11:12 CONTEXT (which according to you speaks of "congregation of believers" all over the world, being "raptured" [according to you] pre-wrath [per your viewpoint]... but somehow, also according to you, NOT "TO HEAVEN"... How do you explain this seeming discrepancy?? Because it is a big one, from what I can tell!)
[for the readers: FTR, I do NOT see this Rev11 passage as a "rapture [G726 - SNATCH]" passage]
Agreed! 
One of the first mis-steps in reading 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 is to [incorrectly] EQUATE verse 1's "Rapture Subject" [when we go VERTICAL! (UP, to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR)] with the DISTINCT Subject of v.2's false claim Paul is telling about, which false claim is: "that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" [which "DOTL" is entirely HORIZONTAL and "earthly-located"!]
They are NOT the SAME THING (as many suppose).
--the false claim (Paul is telling them about, v.2b) is "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (PERFECT tense--"action completed at a specific point of time IN PAST, with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT"--so the false claim was purporting that it was ALREADY HERE; which would be a perfectly REASONABLE THING for them to [incorrectly] be persuaded was TRUE [tho false] because of the "persecutions and tribulations YE ENDURE" 1:4 which they were already ONGOINGLY EXPERIENCING. This is ALSO why Paul had LEFT OFF [in his "intro" 2Th] one aspect of his USUAL GREETING of "faith, love, hope," where in THIS letter he leaves OFF the word "HOPE" in his intro... because this is the aspect he is needing to zero in on, to the Thessalonians, at that time.)
One of the first mis-steps in reading 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 is to [incorrectly] EQUATE verse 1's "Rapture Subject" [when we go VERTICAL! (UP, to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR)] with the DISTINCT Subject of v.2's false claim Paul is telling about, which false claim is: "that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" [which "DOTL" is entirely HORIZONTAL and "earthly-located"!]
They are NOT the SAME THING (as many suppose).
--the false claim (Paul is telling them about, v.2b) is "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (PERFECT tense--"action completed at a specific point of time IN PAST, with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT"--so the false claim was purporting that it was ALREADY HERE; which would be a perfectly REASONABLE THING for them to [incorrectly] be persuaded was TRUE [tho false] because of the "persecutions and tribulations YE ENDURE" 1:4 which they were already ONGOINGLY EXPERIENCING. This is ALSO why Paul had LEFT OFF [in his "intro" 2Th] one aspect of his USUAL GREETING of "faith, love, hope," where in THIS letter he leaves OFF the word "HOPE" in his intro... because this is the aspect he is needing to zero in on, to the Thessalonians, at that time.)
^ Many readers mistakenly think that the false claim Paul is talking about in v.2b was: "that Christ is coming for you/us SOON"... but that was NOT what the false claim was (this is NOT what the text in v.2b is saying!)
[by the reader IMPOSING THIS (incorrect) meaning on the text of v.2b (and what the false claim is ABOUT), it then takes them FAR-AFIELD from what Paul in this context is actually conveying]
[by the reader IMPOSING THIS (incorrect) meaning on the text of v.2b (and what the false claim is ABOUT), it then takes them FAR-AFIELD from what Paul in this context is actually conveying]
I don't understand the basis of your thinking that the media will not spin what those two men are doing to resist authority for them to stop preaching their "hate speech" and able to absolutely defend themselves against all police and military authority. It will also fuel the hatred of the world for Israel, even in the midst of a peace treaty.
This makes sense on MANY levels. Another example is that the new spinning about those two will fuel the world's hatred for Israel and those two men so that when the AC, as you call him, when he breaks the covenant with Israel in the middle of the tribulation and goes after the Jews to try and wipe them out, it all makes even more sense for the world to celebrate the killing of those two.
Dude, simply looking at the manic behavior of so many across the world right now, there is nothing at all strange about the reactions we read about when it comes to anything having to do with Israel and the increasing anti-Semitism that is constantly in the news today.
So, there is nothing at all strange about the two witnesses being just two men defending the new temple, the sacrifices, or whatever it is that they are set out to accomplish. Their success will indeed produce world hatred, and that you personally can't fathom that, sorry. Fingers on the pulse of what's going on right now, and how none of it makes any sense, that only adds to the plausibility of them being just two men.
MM
This makes sense on MANY levels. Another example is that the new spinning about those two will fuel the world's hatred for Israel and those two men so that when the AC, as you call him, when he breaks the covenant with Israel in the middle of the tribulation and goes after the Jews to try and wipe them out, it all makes even more sense for the world to celebrate the killing of those two.
Dude, simply looking at the manic behavior of so many across the world right now, there is nothing at all strange about the reactions we read about when it comes to anything having to do with Israel and the increasing anti-Semitism that is constantly in the news today.
So, there is nothing at all strange about the two witnesses being just two men defending the new temple, the sacrifices, or whatever it is that they are set out to accomplish. Their success will indeed produce world hatred, and that you personally can't fathom that, sorry. Fingers on the pulse of what's going on right now, and how none of it makes any sense, that only adds to the plausibility of them being just two men.
MM
The problem with your use of the imagery of a multitude beyond counting is that they are in Heaven before those two witnesses are killed. Claiming that the event in Revelation are out of sequence, I'll just have to challenge the believers in that for proof. Where it's true that the focus shifts back and forth between Heaven and earth, the belief that the overall sequence is jumbled is nothing more than to accuse Yah of being jumbled and incoherent. John made no illusions to being confused by what he saw in relation to order and sequence. That's a creation of people who want to keep it all subjective so that they can make it say whatever they want.
So you forcing change in sequence is just that, Gnostic subjectivism...either that or you really have not studied it all out well enough to realize your simple, basic mistake in relation to the text!
MM
So you forcing change in sequence is just that, Gnostic subjectivism...either that or you really have not studied it all out well enough to realize your simple, basic mistake in relation to the text!
MM
Also, I am saying what the Olive Trees and Lampstands represent. It means mass Believers. It could be only 2 people but the literal meaning means the Followers of God. Even in Acts Paul and Peter said we are the Witnesses to the world. But we are many. And it would not matter if Satan spins the news knowing the whole world basically has a big party at their death. Why would the whole world celebrate people dead that the news has said did nothing? They wouldn't. They will all celebrate because all were directly some how affected by the Witnesses. Which makes no sense to be just 2 people.
Hitler did not affect the USA. No American Jew was involved. But the Witnesses will affect the whole world. Big difference in fact versus your logic.
Hitler did not affect the USA. No American Jew was involved. But the Witnesses will affect the whole world. Big difference in fact versus your logic.
Politician mode at work, I see...
DEAL WITH IT...
Stop diverting!
You are and have been wrong about us being in the Tribulation.
Let others see again and let them decide.
Everyday tribulation =
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace.
In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have
overcome the world.” John 16:33
In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have
overcome the world.” John 16:33
John 16:33 was not speaking about the distinct great Tribulation.
John 16:33 speaks of our everyday life while we are living in the liberal's world.
Now...
The Great (unique) Tribulation is what?
For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the
beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. Mat 24:21
beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. Mat 24:21
Quite a difference. Why can't you see it?
Forget about all those other mistakes you claim I have made. Deal with YOURS!
Nice boy. Sit!
Yeah, yeah. That's the same claim we hear from all the Gnostics and etherealists out there who want everything in scripture to fit their eschatology rather than to let it speak for itself. Gods of chaos are plentiful out there. The Greeks originated a series of gods who were fickle and unorganized. Taking that and superimposing it upon Revelation is just another humanistic bent that I've encountered before, so this is nothing new.
MM
MM
Even the Devil has enough sense to know what the time is...
Look at what will take place during the Tribulation!
Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
Revelation 12:12
Fur is going to fly during the Tribulation.
There will be no time for the kind of self amusement some now have who invent false doctrines to watch how Christians react.
And then there is also this for those who deny the [Day Of Light of the] pre-trib
Great GRACE Departure of The Body Of Christ To Heaven, eh?:
For those who desire "the WOE" on earth:
Amen.
Great GRACE Departure of The Body Of Christ To Heaven, eh?:
For those who desire "the WOE" on earth:
"WOE unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you?
the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light." (Amos 5:18 AV)
Amen.
Yes indeed. Well said.
One distinction I would add, however, is that the wrath of the Lamb, fulfilled through the bowl judgments in the second 42 months of the tribulation, will be FAR worse than what the Devil meets out through the man of sin. The persecutions of the man of sin will be very bad, but far worse is the wrath poured out by the seven angels under the direction of the Lamb.
MM
One distinction I would add, however, is that the wrath of the Lamb, fulfilled through the bowl judgments in the second 42 months of the tribulation, will be FAR worse than what the Devil meets out through the man of sin. The persecutions of the man of sin will be very bad, but far worse is the wrath poured out by the seven angels under the direction of the Lamb.
MM
The Lord will judge evil as the evil ones choose to judge others....
Their punishment becomes self explanatory to them as they experience what they would have done to others if empowered to do so.
Those in the Lake of Fire will know why they are there.
For if allowed to remain free for all eternity?
They would make life a living hell for all who love the Lord!
That's what false teachers do on a subtle level.
Wishing to make your life hell by distorting and manipulating God's Word.
What its like being made free of evil wishing harm is yet a foreign concept to us.
When all evil is permanently quarantined in the Lake of Fire?
We will then know God's peace, that we right now we can not know experientially.
That peace will be understood and no longer a peace beyond understanding.
grace and victory!
Their punishment becomes self explanatory to them as they experience what they would have done to others if empowered to do so.
Those in the Lake of Fire will know why they are there.
For if allowed to remain free for all eternity?
They would make life a living hell for all who love the Lord!
That's what false teachers do on a subtle level.
Wishing to make your life hell by distorting and manipulating God's Word.
What its like being made free of evil wishing harm is yet a foreign concept to us.
When all evil is permanently quarantined in the Lake of Fire?
We will then know God's peace, that we right now we can not know experientially.
That peace will be understood and no longer a peace beyond understanding.
grace and victory!
Some are arguing over words as a means to divert away from the real issue they wish to avoid.
For, whatever a particular heaven it will be?
The Rapture still remains reality.
Some try to drag us away from the real issue by distracting us with such arguments over words.
We do know this.
It says.... we will be "caught up in the clouds" which today we call the lower atmosphere.
And...
When it says that Satan is the prince of the air?
Ephesians 2:1-2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked
according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the
spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience.
The Rapture will be God and his Chosen believers penetrating into Satan's domain!
Fallen angels will be staring at us having our brand new resurrection bodies!!!
They will fear their defeat like never before!
Note: Kenneth Wuest is his Expanded Translation from the Greek, says that the word "air" refers to the lower atmosphere.
He translated it that Satan will be the prince of the "lower atmosphere."
That means?
We are going to be instantly popping up into Satan's living room!
God be showing off His people in our all new powerful, and absolutely beautiful, resurrection bodies!!!!!
So? The Rapture holds more than one meaning.
For us? It is for our comforting.
But, for Satan and his angels?
It will be God is coming to earth with His powerful army to totally and absolutely defeat them!
For we will be indestructible and powerful. Higher than the angels!
Its real. Reality will not be stopped by false doctrine.
grace and peace....
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