Total Depravity

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PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
2,791
332
83
Are you refusing to call prophecies, prophecy?
No. Prophecies are prophecy.

What do the Hebrew word NaBa' and the Greek word prophEteuO, translated as prophesy, mean? They do not mean "to predict the future", although they may sometimes include a prediction of the future.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,169
8,788
113
Are you saying you have no ability to predict anything future?
No. I cannot predict ANY future event with 100% certainty.

You can predict that tomorrow you will get up and see the sunrise. And the LIKLIHOOD of that happening is very high. But it is absolutely NOT certain. NOTHING, outside of the scope of Scripture IS certain.
You are not guaranteed your next breath, much less seeing the next sunrise.

Jeremiah and Ezekiel prophesied King Zedekiah would see Nebuchadnezzar face to face, die in Babylon, yet not see Babylon.
But of course the LORD saw and ordained it. Zedekiah watched his 2 sons put to death and then had his eyes put out!
And died yrs later in Babylon. EXACTLY as foretold by the Lord.

But you are NOT the Lord. You CANNOT PREDICT ANYTHING to 100% certainty.

This is dangerous ground you tread.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
2,791
332
83
No. I cannot predict ANY future event with 100% certainty.

You can predict that tomorrow you will get up and see the sunrise. And the LIKLIHOOD of that happening is very high. But it is absolutely NOT certain. NOTHING, outside of the scope of Scripture IS certain.
You are not guaranteed your next breath, much less seeing the next sunrise.

Jeremiah and Ezekiel prophesied King Zedekiah would see Nebuchadnezzar face to face, die in Babylon, yet not see Babylon.
But of course the LORD saw and ordained it. Zedekiah watched his 2 sons put to death and then had his eyes put out!
And died yrs later in Babylon. EXACTLY as foretold by the Lord.

But you are NOT the Lord. You CANNOT PREDICT ANYTHING to 100% certainty.

This is dangerous ground you tread.
I can predict the sun rise time tomorrow where I live. You have a very specialised meaning for "knowing" that is a theoretical theological construct and you only apply when it is necessary to prop up your theology. If your mother were booked on a plane to arrive at a certain time next week, you would adjust your timetable to accommodate her coming. Why? Because you know she is coming on that date. If someone asks you,
"When will you see your mother next?" you would say, "
She's coming to visit next week." And if asked
"How do you know that?" you would say, "
She told me so," You would not say,
"I don't know she is coming, I only believe she intends to come."

We do not use language with the theological precision you want to impose on the Bible when the Bible reports people and God knowing stuff in it. Knowing something will happen simply means believing with a high degree of certainty that it will happen. We always have a silent caveat in mind: "... provided nothing unforeseen happens to prevent it."

The Bible was written by men and through men, but using their language, with the meaning they applied to words in real life.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,024
13,243
113
You are saying I do not understand various terms. What are your working definitions of omnipotence, omniscience, and God's decree?

You say that "Divine foreknowledge is God knowing ALL things in advance -- both good and evil."

God knows all things that ARE TRUE. God knows all things AS THEY TRULY ARE. So, what is the truth about the future? Does the future already truly exist as a done deal? If it does not already exist as a done deal, then an omniscient God knows it as contingent and unsettled. If it is contingent and unsettled, it cannot also be non-contingent and settled.

So, what is your proof that the future is non-contingent and already settled? In your opinion, did God decree the history of all things and when did He do so?
God speaks to Abraham about the future as though it is already the past:

Romans 4:16-17​
Therefore [it is] of faith that [it might be] according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (as it is written, [ "I have made you a father of many nations"]) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
 

Hakawaka

Active member
Jul 1, 2021
163
63
28
I can predict the sun rise time tomorrow where I live. You have a very specialised meaning for "knowing" that is a theoretical theological construct and you only apply when it is necessary to prop up your theology. If your mother were booked on a plane to arrive at a certain time next week, you would adjust your timetable to accommodate her coming. Why? Because you know she is coming on that date. If someone asks you,
"When will you see your mother next?" you would say, "
She's coming to visit next week." And if asked
"How do you know that?" you would say, "
She told me so," You would not say,
"I don't know she is coming, I only believe she intends to come."

We do not use language with the theological precision you want to impose on the Bible when the Bible reports people and God knowing stuff in it. Knowing something will happen simply means believing with a high degree of certainty that it will happen. We always have a silent caveat in mind: "... provided nothing unforeseen happens to prevent it."

The Bible was written by men and through men, but using their language, with the meaning they applied to words in real life.
Could you answer how open theism deals with verses like this:

And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

How does God know they are going to do that, if the future is open?

That is my one and only gripe with open theism, other than that, in my opinion it looks biblical. God is operating in time and is relational and a lot of the philosophical man-made omnis and imns just arent in the Bible