Total Depravity

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reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#641
Mar 23, 2016
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#641
posthuman said:
when we do not search the scriptures looking for Him in them, we miss the point.
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John 5:

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


2 Corinthians 3:

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. :cool:
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posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#643
Jul 31, 2013
37,054
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#643
Nehemiah6 said:
I am not sure this can be applied here. I would rather take Scripture at face value without trying to "explain" God. Some things remain paradoxical. Yes, God absolutely knows everything, and yes there are times when the Bible says that he changed his mind. The word "repented" is used as a change of mind.
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It means to turn away from.

The scripture literally says the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Christ, and literally calls Moses a prophet, and Christ literally says the Torah is written about Himself.

God literally turned away from His righteous wrath because of Christ, out mediator between God and man.

This does not make God beholden to time - He was slain from the foundation of the world.
 
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PaulThomson

Well-known member
#644
Oct 29, 2023
2,842
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#644
posthuman said:
God did forgive sin, because THE MEDIATOR exists
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God did change His mind so that He did not do what He had thought to do, just as God changed His mind about vessels of wrath and began to consider them instead as vessels of mercy when they believed in His Son..
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#645
Jul 18, 2017
25,083
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#645
posthuman said:
God literally turned away from His righteous wrath because of Christ, out mediator between God and man.
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I don't believe this is supported by the actual Scriptures.

1. Let's look at the record in Exodus 32 regarding the Golden Calf. God was going to destroy all of Israel, but He "repented" of this decision: And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. (v 14).

2. At the same time Moses ordered all the Israelites who were naked to be killed: And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. (v 28) So 3,000 idolaters were slaughtered that day.

3. But God did not spare the idolaters either. And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made. (v 35)

So your theory falls flat right here. Rather than wiping out Israel, God plagued Israel. There is no application of the finished work of the cross in this situation. Just righteous wrath and anger.

When it comes to Nineveh after the preaching of Jonah, God saw genuine repentance and changed His mind. Had He already foreseen and foreknown this? Of course, But the narrative is also true. And we need not go any further. Paul thinks he know the mind of God better than God, which is pure delusion. But some people love their delusions.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#646
Jul 31, 2013
37,054
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#646
PaulThomson said:
God did change His mind so that He did not do what He had thought to do, just as God changed His mind about vessels of wrath and began to consider them instead as vessels of mercy when they believed in His Son..
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Romans 9 says what if He created some for certain use, not what if He created purposeless vessels and later changed His mind about them.
and it also says, what is it to you if He did, oh vain man? who do you think you are to judge Him or talk back to Him?

the scriptures say The Shepherd knows His sheep and searches for them. He doesn't go looking for goats belonging to other shepherds, steal them and transform them into sheep.

the leopard cannot change his spots.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#647
Jul 31, 2013
37,054
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#647
Nehemiah6 said:
Paul thinks he know the mind of God better than God, which is pure delusion. But some people love their delusions.
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the Holy Spirit, not Paul, is the author of Romans, and it is Christ Himself Who says those I love, I rebuke and chasten

Exodus 32:31-34​
Then Moses returned to the LORD and said, ​
"Oh, these people have committed a great sin, and have made for themselves a god of gold! Yet now, if You will forgive their sin—but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written." ​
And the LORD said to Moses, ​
"Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. Now therefore, go, lead the people to [the place] of which I have spoken to you. Behold, My Angel shall go before you. Nevertheless, in the day when I visit for punishment, I will visit punishment upon them for their sin."​
​
is Moses blotted out?
is Israel blotted out?
no.

and The Angel of The LORD - Jesus Christ - went before the people.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#648
Jul 31, 2013
37,054
13,252
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#648
Nehemiah6 said:
When it comes to Nineveh after the preaching of Jonah, God saw genuine repentance and changed His mind. Had He already foreseen and foreknown this? Of course, But the narrative is also true. And we need not go any further.
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why did He send Jonah to Ninevah?
why did He chasten, rebuke and reason with Jonah until the message had been given to them?

because He did not ever change His mind about or His plans for those Ninevites He intended to save, nor for Jonah whom He also saved and taught the ways of righteousness.

Jonah is scripture because it testifies of Christ. 3 days and 3 nights in the belly and then the gathering of His sheep, saying, repent and be saved!
He knows the plans He has for you, and His arm is not shortened.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#649
Jul 31, 2013
37,054
13,252
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#649
Nehemiah6 said:
So your theory falls flat right here. Rather than wiping out Israel, God plagued Israel. There is no application of the finished work of the cross in this situation. Just righteous wrath and anger.
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what i said was that, prefiguring Christ, God accepted the propitiation of the mediator ((Moses ~ Jesus)) and turned away His wrath, relenting from destroying Israel altogether.

and this is what happened. He did not altogether destroy Israel, but judged the idolators ((vis a vis those who do not believe the divine Messiah)) and chastened the people ((see Rev. 3:19)) that He had mercy on.

and it has been His eternal intention the Lamb be slain and those whose trust is in Him be redeemed. therefore there is no other way this could possibly have played out except Moses, typologically Christ the Mediator, stand in the gap and satisfy the wrath of the justice of God, so that a remnant be spared and saved, and that wrath be turned away.
all this was prophesied by the blood of Abel and prefigured by the saying of Adam, "the woman you gave me, gave to me, and i ate" - Adam also being a type of Christ, per Romans 5

you have not contradicted what i said: you have verified and further substantiated it by posting the text - all that is lacking is you have not yet confessed that it testifies of Him.
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#655
Oct 12, 2017
1,547
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#655
TMS said:
Total depravity... the first point that calvanists believe.

Please prove from the word the difference and which is correct,
Between....
We are born without sin, sinless.

We are born with sinful tendency but not sin.

We are born as one that has already sinned.
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Ever wonder?

What would we be like if we were not having depravity?



We will not know until we are resurrected.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#659
Jul 31, 2013
37,054
13,252
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#659
posthuman said:
how would we know?

is it really, by our opinions?
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what i do know certainly, is that He is infinitely greater than me, and that by myself, without Him, all i do is fall.

so.

draw informed conclusions
 
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