Total Depravity

[posthuman]

Making metaphysical assertions without scriptural support is not persuasive.

What scripture says God is already present in the future?

Revelation 22:13​

I AM the Alpha and the Omega, ​

Beginning and End, ​

the First and the Last.​

 

[posthuman]

You are making the ridiculous assertion that if the two bound particles are on opposite sides of universe and a change is induced in one, and the other instantaneously conforms to the first, the second particle is really foretelling what the first will do because (you claim) information cannot be communicated faster than the speed of light.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem

 

[PaulThomson]

yes you have demonstrated you don't understand math or physics. and that's fine. most people don't. i'm not going to give you 20 years of education in them in a thread like this.

but to believe God cannot know what man will do is also demonstrating that you do not understand scripture. consider:

Matthew 26:34​

Jesus said to him, ​

"Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times."​

​

does Christ cause Peter to sin?
did God just make a really lucky guess?

No. Christ does not cause Peter to sin.

No, it was not a really lucky guess. It was a calculation based on living with and discipling Peter for three years and it was a highly likely response from Peter to threats to his life. What Jesus actually said was,

"Before the cock crows twice, you will deny Me three times". Peter responds,

"No Lord. Even if all deny you, yet I will never deny you." To this Jesus responds,

"I tell you the truth, before the cock crows, you will deny me three times." And again Peter denies.

If one reads the gospels carefully, it is clear that Peter denied Jesus nine times. six times before the first cock crowed, and three more times before the cock crowed twice. Jesus was not giving an exact numerical prediction. Jesus was focussing on warning Peter of Peter's fickleness. "Before the cock crows twice you will deny Me three times. In fact, before the cock crows even once, you will deny Me three times."

It was a prediction based on an intimate past and present knowledge of Peter's present character. Not a really lucky guess, but quite an easy prediction.

 

[PaulThomson]

Revelation 22:13​

I AM the Alpha and the Omega, ​

Beginning and End, ​

the First and the Last.​

God began the world by forming it out of water, and he will end the world by burning it up in fervent heat.

 

[PaulThomson]

To men that is the case. Stop treating God as if He is a man.

How am I treating God as if He is a man? We are made in God's image. God must have some likeness to if we have likeness to God. Right?

God is greater in every respect. But He is not completely unlike man. He made us in His image.

 

[posthuman]

If one reads the gospels carefully, it is clear that Peter denied Jesus nine times. six times before the first cock crowed, and three more times before the cock crowed twice.

so your position is that God guessed, and got it wrong?

is that why this is in the Bible?
to demonstrate that God is fallible and makes false statements?

not only is the god of the open theist ignorant, but he is also error-prone??

 

[Cameron143]

Like Israel in Eygpt we do not seek God. God seeks us and sets us free. Israel choose to follow God.

Moses walked through the red sea and Israel followed. They were persuaded by the signs they saw. We too can see God's workings if we will only look. We can find reasons to not follow if we want to doubt.

Without God we are lost and will not seek Him. But with God's help we can find Him.

I agree salvation does begin with a work of God. But does God force us to be saved and can we choose to reject salvation?

Love woos, it doesn't compel. The gospel is God's love song, and Jesus is our Suitor. Once God sets His affections upon us, He relentlessly pursues us. This is the measure of God's love for His own.

 

[studier]

Love woos, it doesn't compel. The gospel is God's love song, and Jesus is our Suitor. Once God sets His affections upon us, He relentlessly pursues us. This is the measure of God's love for His own.

Does Love persuade, which can also include coerce, which can also trend into compel in the sense of using pressure?

It seems the second death and Lake of Fire should be compelling persuasion, at least for those who might consider it, which I'm pretty certain some to many do. For those who aren't that technical, most I think are aware of the concept of Hell.

 

[PaulThomson]

so your position is that God guessed, and got it wrong?

is that why this is in the Bible?
to demonstrate that God is fallible and makes false statements?

not only is the god of the open theist ignorant, but he is also error-prone??

Read the four gospels and count how many times Peter denied Jesus. God speaks to us in the language we use to speak to each other; and He can be at times just as colloquially imprecise.

It is not an error to say Peter would deny Jesus three times, but he denies Jesus nine times. One has to do something three times to get to nine times. Someone who does something nine times must have done it three times as well.

 

[studier]

God speaks to us in the language we use to speak to each other; and He can be at times just as colloquially imprecise.

And we today are still trying to understand how the people of the time spoke to and understood one another. And men like Paul who were so well versed in both the Hebrew and the Greek mind and coupled with the Spirit of God were leagues beyond most of us in the art of language including rhetoric.

 

[Genez]

yes you have demonstrated you don't understand math or physics. and that's fine. most people don't. i'm not going to give you 20 years of education in them in a thread like this.

but to believe God cannot know what man will do is also demonstrating that you do not understand scripture. consider:

Matthew 26:34​

Jesus said to him, ​

"Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times."​

​

does Christ cause Peter to sin?
did God just make a really lucky guess?

That involves a principle in regards to the Word of God.

There are truths contained within the Word that can not be seen unless they are pointed out to you.
Yet? Once pointed out?
They become obvious, and simple.

But, until then?..
The truth could not be seen.

We must be led by the Spirit who gently points out what is to be made simple and clear.

 

[Cameron143]

Does Love persuade, which can also include coerce, which can also trend into compel in the sense of using pressure?

It seems the second death and Lake of Fire should be compelling persuasion, at least for those who might consider it, which I'm pretty certain some to many do. For those who aren't that technical, most I think are aware of the concept of Hell.

Certainly the love of God constrains us and propels us in this life, and probably the next. But I was thinking more of the love that brings salvation, and not sanctification.
In Jude, some come as a result of fear. God knows how to draw perfectly.

 

[Genez]

It is not an error to say Peter would deny Jesus three times, but he denies Jesus nine times. One has to do something three times to get to nine times.

But, nine times before the cock crowed?

 

[studier]

God knows how to draw perfectly.

Agree. And that perfection includes the knowledge of reality of the end game and knows a bit of righteous coercion and warning is also Love in action.

 

[Cameron143]

Agree. And that perfection includes the knowledge of reality of the end game and knows a bit of righteous coercion and warning is also Love in action.

Of course. The LORD chastens all He loves. I'm not the one who believes man chooses apart from the working of God.

 

[studier]

Of course. The LORD chastens all He loves. I'm not the one who believes man chooses apart from the working of God.

The chastening for the ones He loves is His discipline of His children so we can share in His holiness, which has always been one of those sections of Scripture (Hebrews) that has profoundly affected me - sharing in the holiness of the Creator of all things is quite the concept to ponder.

I think we both know that man does not believe apart from God's work. It's just a matter of what that work is that brings man to saving belief.

 

[posthuman]

But, nine times before the cock crowed?

God knows how to draw perfectly.

God is also really good at math