Total Depravity

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Making metaphysical assertions without scriptural support is not persuasive.

What scripture says God is already present in the future?
Revelation 22:13​
I AM the Alpha and the Omega,
Beginning and End,
the First and the Last.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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yes you have demonstrated you don't understand math or physics. and that's fine. most people don't. i'm not going to give you 20 years of education in them in a thread like this.

but to believe God cannot know what man will do is also demonstrating that you do not understand scripture. consider:

Matthew 26:34​
Jesus said to him,
"Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times."
does Christ cause Peter to sin?
did God just make a really lucky guess?
No. Christ does not cause Peter to sin.

No, it was not a really lucky guess. It was a calculation based on living with and discipling Peter for three years and it was a highly likely response from Peter to threats to his life. What Jesus actually said was,

"Before the cock crows twice, you will deny Me three times". Peter responds,

"No Lord. Even if all deny you, yet I will never deny you." To this Jesus responds,

"I tell you the truth, before the cock crows, you will deny me three times." And again Peter denies.

If one reads the gospels carefully, it is clear that Peter denied Jesus nine times. six times before the first cock crowed, and three more times before the cock crowed twice. Jesus was not giving an exact numerical prediction. Jesus was focussing on warning Peter of Peter's fickleness. "Before the cock crows twice you will deny Me three times. In fact, before the cock crows even once, you will deny Me three times."

It was a prediction based on an intimate past and present knowledge of Peter's present character. Not a really lucky guess, but quite an easy prediction.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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To men that is the case. Stop treating God as if He is a man.
How am I treating God as if He is a man? We are made in God's image. God must have some likeness to if we have likeness to God. Right?

God is greater in every respect. But He is not completely unlike man. He made us in His image.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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If one reads the gospels carefully, it is clear that Peter denied Jesus nine times. six times before the first cock crowed, and three more times before the cock crowed twice.
so your position is that God guessed, and got it wrong?

is that why this is in the Bible?
to demonstrate that God is fallible and makes false statements?

not only is the god of the open theist ignorant, but he is also error-prone??
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Like Israel in Eygpt we do not seek God. God seeks us and sets us free. Israel choose to follow God.

Moses walked through the red sea and Israel followed. They were persuaded by the signs they saw. We too can see God's workings if we will only look. We can find reasons to not follow if we want to doubt.

Without God we are lost and will not seek Him. But with God's help we can find Him.

I agree salvation does begin with a work of God. But does God force us to be saved and can we choose to reject salvation?
Love woos, it doesn't compel. The gospel is God's love song, and Jesus is our Suitor. Once God sets His affections upon us, He relentlessly pursues us. This is the measure of God's love for His own.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Love woos, it doesn't compel. The gospel is God's love song, and Jesus is our Suitor. Once God sets His affections upon us, He relentlessly pursues us. This is the measure of God's love for His own.
Does Love persuade, which can also include coerce, which can also trend into compel in the sense of using pressure?

It seems the second death and Lake of Fire should be compelling persuasion, at least for those who might consider it, which I'm pretty certain some to many do. For those who aren't that technical, most I think are aware of the concept of Hell.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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so your position is that God guessed, and got it wrong?

is that why this is in the Bible?
to demonstrate that God is fallible and makes false statements?

not only is the god of the open theist ignorant, but he is also error-prone??
Read the four gospels and count how many times Peter denied Jesus. God speaks to us in the language we use to speak to each other; and He can be at times just as colloquially imprecise.

It is not an error to say Peter would deny Jesus three times, but he denies Jesus nine times. One has to do something three times to get to nine times. Someone who does something nine times must have done it three times as well.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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God speaks to us in the language we use to speak to each other; and He can be at times just as colloquially imprecise.

And we today are still trying to understand how the people of the time spoke to and understood one another. And men like Paul who were so well versed in both the Hebrew and the Greek mind and coupled with the Spirit of God were leagues beyond most of us in the art of language including rhetoric.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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yes you have demonstrated you don't understand math or physics. and that's fine. most people don't. i'm not going to give you 20 years of education in them in a thread like this.

but to believe God cannot know what man will do is also demonstrating that you do not understand scripture. consider:

Matthew 26:34​
Jesus said to him,
"Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times."
does Christ cause Peter to sin?
did God just make a really lucky guess?
That involves a principle in regards to the Word of God.

There are truths contained within the Word that can not be seen unless they are pointed out to you.
Yet? Once pointed out?
They become obvious, and simple.

But, until then?..
The truth could not be seen.

We must be led by the Spirit who gently points out what is to be made simple and clear.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Does Love persuade, which can also include coerce, which can also trend into compel in the sense of using pressure?

It seems the second death and Lake of Fire should be compelling persuasion, at least for those who might consider it, which I'm pretty certain some to many do. For those who aren't that technical, most I think are aware of the concept of Hell.
Certainly the love of God constrains us and propels us in this life, and probably the next. But I was thinking more of the love that brings salvation, and not sanctification.
In Jude, some come as a result of fear. God knows how to draw perfectly.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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It is not an error to say Peter would deny Jesus three times, but he denies Jesus nine times. One has to do something three times to get to nine times.
But, nine times before the cock crowed?
 

Cameron143

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Agree. And that perfection includes the knowledge of reality of the end game and knows a bit of righteous coercion and warning is also Love in action.
Of course. The LORD chastens all He loves. I'm not the one who believes man chooses apart from the working of God.
 

studier

Well-known member
Apr 18, 2024
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Of course. The LORD chastens all He loves. I'm not the one who believes man chooses apart from the working of God.
The chastening for the ones He loves is His discipline of His children so we can share in His holiness, which has always been one of those sections of Scripture (Hebrews) that has profoundly affected me - sharing in the holiness of the Creator of all things is quite the concept to ponder.

I think we both know that man does not believe apart from God's work. It's just a matter of what that work is that brings man to saving belief.
 

sawdust

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Feb 12, 2024
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No. I have said if God wants to predict an event he can use His omnipotence to make it make a certain thing happen, but unless He uses His omniootence to intervene and cause events then they are uncertain probabilities. And the only way God cpuld know all future evenys is if He is using His omnipotence to conform all events to a programmed plan, which eould make God the cause/origin of all evil. I don't believe God is that.




Yes, God can declare an end from a beginning amd make that end happen
But that is a long way from the claim that God declares all ends from all beginnings, which would make all evil God's intention for creation.



Maybe you should pay attention to the same scripture and pull back from indicting God with the entailment of being the originator of all the world's evils.
So you limit Him to function as His creation, then you make Him a bully by using His power to get His own way and then you say I'm making Him the author of evil because ... you forgot there are other wills working in the world? The verse says He declares, not creates things "before they happen".

Based on your logic of me making God the author of evil then that would mean the creator of binary coding is the author of all computer trojans and virus etc.

The problem is you begin with a false logic. God is not confined to acting the same way as His creation. You have used quantum mechanics to declare God's knowing must happen according to a certain manner. Then you assume He is using His power to create the events He wants. Isaiah 46:10 says nothing like what you assume.

Worst of all, you see no contradiction in the potential to be wrong as having an impact upon righteousness, which is what I originally pointed out. He can't reach a T-junction and decide to turn to the left only to find it was the wrong way to go and then use His power to achieve His will. That's the mark of a bully. "I stuffed up but you will pay for it".

God is not the author of the worlds evil, He is the author of volition and has given everyone a certain amount of power to use their own volition without His interference. Being both omniscient and omnipotent is what enables Him "to work all things together for good" and gives Him the right to judge.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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So you limit Him to function as His creation...
If you think that, you just aren't listening.

".... then you make Him a bully by using His power to get His own way"
As a parent, when my child made a mess by throwing his toys around, I sometimes had to make his hands pick up the toys and put them back in their containers manipulating his fingers and body to do my will. Was I being a bully?

... and then you say I'm making Him the author of evil because ... you forgot there are other wills working in the world? The verse says He declares, not creates things "before they happen".
What is your suggested mechanism or process by which God knows the next century before it happens? Is he looking through time and actually seeing events playing out in the next century, and reporting what He is seeing will be? Or is he making theoretical calculations of the minutiae leading from now until the next century and predicting what will happen? Or did He create the world, planning and determining that the exact events in the next century would play out exactly as they will? Or do you have some other process in mind?

Based on your logic of me making God the author of evil then that would mean the creator of binary coding is the author of all computer trojans and virus etc.
Did the creator of binary coding know at the time that trojans and viruses would eventuate, and did he know with specificity all the problems these trojans and viruses would cause in the world before he released his invention into the world? If he did, then he WOULD BE the author of all computer viruses and trojans,

The problem is you begin with a false logic. God is not confined to acting the same way as His creation.
I have not begun with any claim that "God must be confined to acting the same way as His creation".

You have used quantum mechanics to declare God's knowing must happen according to a certain manner.
I did not use quantum mechanics to prove anything. @posthuman introduced claims about quantum mechanics in his attempt to disprove my position.

Then you assume He is using His power to create the events He wants. Isaiah 46:10 says nothing like what you assume.
Actually, Is 46:10 says exactly that. He declares it and then DOES IT.

Worst of all, you see no contradiction in the potential to be wrong as having an impact upon righteousness,
You would have loved Sister Verda at my primary school, who would cane students for making spelling errors. I guess she agreed with you, that being wrong is anything was a moral failing.

... which is what I originally pointed out. He can't reach a T-junction and decide to turn to the left only to find it was the wrong way to go and then use His power to achieve His will. That's the mark of a bully. "I stuffed up but you will pay for it".
So, when a government makes a mistake and finds their policy has unexpected negative consequences, passing legislation to fix the loophole or to replace the policy with another, is being a bully?

God is not the author of the worlds evil, He is the author of volition and has given everyone a certain amount of power to use their own volition without His interference.
yay! We agree on something, at least..

Being both omniscient and omnipotent is what enables Him "to work all things together for good" and gives Him the right to judge.
And we agree on that too. Excellent.