Wow!

[kujo313]

So, then, this is supposed to be about a guy who says that the RCC is evil and, yet, he's a sinner. Aren't we all sinners and need a Savior?

Not all people who leave the RCC leave Jesus. They love Him, serve Him and follow Him but they don't follow the RCC. Why? There's something in it that just ain't right.

I learned things in mathematics that helps things make sense:

If a=b and b=c, then a=c. If you include all the letters of the english alphabet , then you can conclude that a=z (the first equals the last if all the letters equal each other).

If we're in the Last Days, we're in z. Therefore, z should be equal to a. Did the first church have statues? Did they have paintings? Did they ask formally-living-on-earth "saints" to take their prayers to God because they was "already in Heaven" and "their prayers would much more be heard by God then ours"?

Did Paul teach that or did he teach and warn against it?

Ok, a sinner says that there's something wrong in the RCC.

Examine the evidence and not the one who presented the evidence. Examine the "fruit".

 

[zone]

I'm not one for the pointless arguements and division I see as rife on this site, and as someone who is within the Catholic Church I can say it is most definitely not, for something so close to the heart of Jesus couldn't be. Of course there are bad people in every organisation, and all the more so in a Church that is leading people away from satan: he will want to corrupt that. Anyway, seeing as you said it, what is it that makes you think the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon, or anything close? The characteristics?

she isn't.
Jesus has many people in every city....just don't take part in mariolatry, prayers to the dead etc.
k.i.s.s.

 

[rodogg]

she isn't.
Jesus has many people in every city....just don't take part in mariolatry, prayers to the dead etc.
k.i.s.s.

Ah but I do But my arguements won't cause you to change your mind, so I won't bother. I don't want to add to the divisions between believers, as these divisions are not from God. There is a book called Youcat, here is an Amazon link: Amazon.com: Youcat (9781586175160): Cardinal Christoph Schonborn (editor): Books
It's just a book of the beliefs of Catholics, put fairly simply. I don't suggest that you read in in order to convert you, just so you can see what we truly believe in all aspects of the faith. k.i.s.s? I googled it and apparently it means keep it simple, stupid? Yes?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm not one for the pointless arguements and division I see as rife on this site, and as someone who is within the Catholic Church I can say it is most definitely not, for something so close to the heart of Jesus couldn't be. Of course there are bad people in every organisation, and all the more so in a Church that is leading people away from satan: he will want to corrupt that. Anyway, seeing as you said it, what is it that makes you think the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon, or anything close? The characteristics?

Oh I don't know. Maybe that she gets many of her doctrines from pagan (the mother) sources. and is carrying on the tradition of the mother.

1. sacramental system as a means of gaining access to God and entrance to heaven.
2. High priest of the heathen (pope)
3. Mother of God worship (mary)
4. idols
5. Temple and temple sacrifices (eucharist and sacrificial mass in a temple or cathedral)
6. Purgatory
7. Winter solstice (Christmas)
8. Celebrating the goddess of fertility (easter)

Also. taken from revelation.

1. Killed many of Gods people
2. Very rich and influential (The vatican is actually the third richest entity on earth behind the US and I believe China)
3. Controls, or has sway over kings (nations) in other words she has embassadors to nations and can sway their beliefs.
4. World wide in scope.
5. Will be mourned when it is destroyed by all the world. Can you tell me an organization who would be morened more then the RCC?


I could go on and on. But I think you get the picture. I am sure you do not believe these things are catholic. But history shows they are. they were added to the doctrines of the church when it was made the religion of Rome. The actuall High priest of the pagan (pontifus maximus as he was called) was the ceasar. Who later became known as the pope.

All this stuff originated in Babylon., And spread throughout the known world. It was controlled by Rome in the time of Christ, and after. and later forced on all people in the name of Christ for fear of death by the same roman army and emperors who created it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Does Jesus have ALL authority in Heaven AND ON EARTH?

Are you going to answer the questions or not stranglelove? If you not just let us know and we can stop this crap!

When was both kingdoms ever put back in their land to live in peace?
When was the covenant made and in the middle of the covenant the man who made it desecrates the sancuary.
When has Israel ever lived in peace?

all these things were prophesied to happen. Yet it never has. now can you explain why. Or are you going to keep ignoring the questions?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

APOSTATES!!

Always has been always will be.

A REAL Hebrew obeyed Yahweh. The APOSTATES fornicated. They called themselves hebrews but were not.

A REAL Jew is CHRISTIAN. The APOSTATES fornicate. The call themselves jews but are not.

How about YOU make up your mind. Is the Mother paganism in general or is it the RCC church?

romans 11 completely destroys this train of though. Paul sais there are Gentiles, who are in, and are hebrews who are still in unbelief. The gentile time will be completed. and all the hebrew, isreal, jews whatever the heck you want to call them will be saved.

But you refuse to look at romans 11.

All the prophesies you used to prove your point also destroy it when taken in context.

But you still want to play this silly game.

have fun!

Refusal to answer speaks louder than at least attempting to answer!

 

[zone]

Oh I don't know. Maybe that she gets many of her doctrines from pagan (the mother) sources. and is carrying on the tradition of the mother.

1. sacramental system as a means of gaining access to God and entrance to heaven.
2. High priest of the heathen (pope)
3. Mother of God worship (mary)
4. idols
5. Temple and temple sacrifices (eucharist and sacrificial mass in a temple or cathedral)
6. Purgatory
7. Winter solstice (Christmas)
8. Celebrating the goddess of fertility (easter)

Also. taken from revelation.

1. Killed many of Gods people
2. Very rich and influential (The vatican is actually the third richest entity on earth behind the US and I believe China)
3. Controls, or has sway over kings (nations) in other words she has embassadors to nations and can sway their beliefs.
4. World wide in scope.
5. Will be mourned when it is destroyed by all the world. Can you tell me an organization who would be morened more then the RCC?


I could go on and on. But I think you get the picture. I am sure you do not believe these things are catholic. But history shows they are. they were added to the doctrines of the church when it was made the religion of Rome. The actuall High priest of the pagan (pontifus maximus as he was called) was the ceasar. Who later became known as the pope.

All this stuff originated in Babylon., And spread throughout the known world. It was controlled by Rome in the time of Christ, and after. and later forced on all people in the name of Christ for fear of death by the same roman army and emperors who created it.

Little wonder that one Jewish convert to Roman Catholicism made the astounding statement that entering the Catholic Church was not a “conversion” experience for him, but rather a continuation of Judaism. Roy Schoeman, the author of Salvation is from the Jews, confirms as well that the Mass is based on the Jewish ceremonial worship and that Catholic theology is based on the Old Testament!

“As a Jew coming to the Catholic Church, it was natural for me to find the relationship between Judaism and the Catholic Church among the most interesting things in the world. It was obvious to me that for a Jew to enter the Catholic Church wasn’t a matter of conversion at all, but was rather simply coming into the fullness of Judaism — into the form that Judaism took after the coming of the Jewish Messiah.
“Although Catholics are aware of this in principle, they often don’t think of the Catholic Church as the continuation of Judaism after the Messiah... It’s everywhere you look. It’s obviously in the Sacrifice of the Mass and the way the Mass is prefigured in Jewish ceremonial worship. It’s in the role that the Old Testament, Jewish Scripture have in Catholic theology and the structure of the Catholic Faith.” [Seattle Catholic]

A listing of parallels between Roman Catholicism and Judaism, which have analogues in the Eastern Orthodox Church as well, presented us with the startling prospect that Roman Catholicism may have been a Judaized form of Christianity from its inception. In the list of traditions below, links to the Catholic Encyclopedia show that the Roman Catholic Church justifies most of its practices by appealing to the Old Testament. Even in cases where the New Testament is cited as justification, these practices are not required under the New Covenant but have their basis in Judaism.

Priesthood (cf. Levitical priesthood/mediators between God and men)
Pope (cf. Jewish High Priest)
College of Cardinals (70) (cf. seventy elders of Moses/Deut.17:8)
Confession of sins to priest for forgiveness (cf. Lev.5:5)
Daily sacrifice of the Mass (cf. Daily burnt offering / Heb.10:11)
Altars for sacrifices
Altar vessels of gold and silver
Vestments for priests
Cardinals’ skullcap (cf. Jewish yarmulke)
Offertory (cf. Offerings)
Church buildings for worship (cf. Temple)
Liturgy (cf. service of the Temple)
Sunday obligation (cf. Sabbath observance)
Ecclesiastical Feasts (cf. Jewish feasts)
Scapular / Hairshirt (cf. Sackcloth)
Works-based salvation (cf. Mosaic Law)
Sacrament of infant baptism (cf. Rite of Circumcision / Talmud)
Wafer-only Communion (cf. Manna/Shew Bread)
Sacrament of Confirmation (cf. Jewish Bar/Bat Mitzvah)
Burning of candles and incense (cf. Exodus 30)
Holy water font (cf. The Laver / Exodus 40)
No salvation outside the (Catholic) Church (Gentiles must convert to Judaism to be saved)

The following Roman Catholic traditions were not part of the Mosaic Law but were adopted by the Israelites in their apostasy:

Traditions of men (Mark 7:6-13)
Vain repetitions (Lip service (Isa.29:13)
Veneration of saints (Idolatry/pagan gods)
Worship of Mary as Mother of God (Jews worshipped Queen of Heaven / Jer. 44)
Statues/images (images on the walls of Solomon’s Temple) (Ezek 8:10)
Demotion of Jesus to Co-Redeemer (cf. Jews’ denial of Jesus as Messiah)
Preoccupation with Christ’s death rather than resurrection (Jews’ denial of Jesus’ resurrection)

The above is only a partial catalog of Jewish traditions found in Roman Catholicism. The sacerdotal (priesthood) and daily sacrificial systems alone strongly implicate the Roman Catholic Church as, not only a front for apostate Judaism, but as a vehicle for converting Christians, without their knowledge, to the very religious system that rejected Jesus Christ. One commentary compares the Roman Catholic teaching on salvation to that preached in Judaism:

“The Catholic perspective on salvation is largely ‘judaized’ Christianity. In the days of the Apostles, many Jewish Christians believed that Christians had to follow all the requirements of the Mosaic Law, e.g., circumcision, the system of offerings, going to a priest to have sins forgiven, making sacrifices as atonement for sins, etc. A system that requires some type of ‘priest’ to act as an intercessor between the layperson and God is known as a sacerdotal system (from the Latin word sacerdote, meaning ‘priest’.)”

In view of the striking parallels between Roman Catholicism and Judaism, it becomes apparent that Roman Catholicism represents, to a remarkable degree, the triumph of the Judaizers. How did it happen that the doctrines, rites and traditions of Judaism crept into the Church at Rome?

MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT: CATHOLIC OR JEWISH

 

[zone]

romans 11 completely destroys this train of though. Paul sais there are Gentiles, who are in, and are hebrews who are still in unbelief. The gentile time will be completed. and all the hebrew, isreal, jews whatever the heck you want to call them will be saved.

But you refuse to look at romans 11.

Dispensationalism 11:31
so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy in 2000+ years (with or without a possible rapture of the gentiles)

Romans 11:31
New International Version(©1984)
so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.

English Standard Version(©2001)
so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

New American Standard Bible(©1995)
so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

International Standard Version(©2008)
so they, too, have now disobeyed. As a result, they may receive mercy because of the mercy shown to you.

GOD'S WORD® Translation(©1995)
In the same way, the Jewish people have also disobeyed so that God may be merciful to them as he was to you.

King James Bible
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

American King James Version
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

American Standard Version
even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.

Bible in Basic English
So in the same way these have gone against the orders of God, so that by the mercy given to you they may now get mercy.

Douay-Rheims Bible
So these also now have not believed, for your mercy, that they also may obtain mercy.

Darby Bible Translation
so these also have now not believed in your mercy, in order that they also may be objects of mercy.

English Revised Version
even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shewn to you they also may now obtain mercy.

Webster's Bible Translation
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Weymouth New Testament
so now they also have been disobedient at a time when you are receiving mercy; so that to them too there may now be mercy.

World English Bible
even so these also have now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they may also obtain mercy.

Young's Literal Translation
so also these now did not believe, that in your kindness they also may find kindness;

 

[zone]

When was both kingdoms ever put back in their land to live in peace?

when they (who believe) came together for the last time under THE KING JESUS CHRIST
the "Land" is the city made without hands, the one Abe wanted.

When was the covenant made

with Abraham, confirmed by Jesus, fulfilled by Jesus.

and in the middle of the covenant

you mean in the middle of the week? it doesn't say anywhere "in the middle of the covenant"

the man who made it .

the Man who 'made the covenant', as you put it. declared desolation on Jersusalem when He declared the Covenant Curses on the Pharisees and foretold the destruction of Jerusalem.

that Man was Jesus.

desecrates the sancuary.

Titus came and destroyed it after the jews Rejected Christ, and continued to sacrifice animals even after Jesus came.

Titus and his men brought banners with their idol and worshipped at the Temple.
hard to say which was more of an abomination.

When has Israel ever lived in peace?

under Joshua, David and Solomon.
a few short periods in between.

they will never have TRUE peace until they become Christians.
then their peace will be like ours: knowing we are now the sons of God who will inherit eternal life with The Lord and King.

all these things were prophesied to happen. Yet it never has. now can you explain why. Or are you going to keep ignoring the questions?

only people who deny Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9 say this has never happened.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When was both kingdoms ever put back in their land to live in peace?

when they (who believe) came together for the last time under THE KING JESUS CHRIST
the "Land" is the city made without hands, the one Abe wanted.

Why did the OT prophets say both Israel and Judah (both kingdoms) and not just one of them. Paul says just jew. why did he not mention both kingdoms? And where do you get that abraham looked for a spiritual. not an earthly kingdom? God showed him the land he promised him. He did not take him to heaven to show him a spiritual land called canaan.

Sorry Zone this does not answer. I was not sent to the gentiles because I was practicing paganism and playing the harlot. Were you?

When was the covenant made

with Abraham, confirmed by Jesus, fulfilled by Jesus.

Wrong covenant. The covenant spoken of by Gabriel was a future covenant. which would happen AFTER the temple was destroyed. Not a past covenant which was already made. Not to mention, There was no temple in Abrahams day.. Try again??

and in the middle of the covenant

you mean in the middle of the week? it doesn't say anywhere "in the middle of the covenant"

A covenant made for one week. and in the middle of the week he will abominate the temple. what other week is there??

the man who made it .

the Man who 'made the covenant', as you put it. declared desolation on Jersusalem when He declared the Covenant Curses on the Pharisees and foretold the destruction of Jerusalem.

that Man was Jesus.

1. Can't be jesus, The one who makes the covenant desecrates the temple by committing the abomination. Jesus spoke of him and said to watch for him, and when you see him you better run. So how could this be Jesus??

2. The man makes a covenent AFTER the temple is destroyed. Not before. Your time line is off.

desecrates the sancuary.

Titus came and destroyed it after the jews Rejected Christ, and continued to sacrifice animals even after Jesus came.

Titus and his men brought banners with their idol and worshipped at the Temple.
hard to say which was more of an abomination.

yet this happened during the destruction. Gabiriel said it would occur after. in fact in the middle of the week. When was the week?? (7 years)

When has Israel ever lived in peace?

under Joshua, David and Solomon.
a few short periods in between.

they will never have TRUE peace until they become Christians.
then their peace will be like ours: knowing we are now the sons of God who will inherit eternal life with The Lord and King.

Ah but this aint what God promised. He promised to being them back to their land. (the church was never promised land) He promised they all would be saved. he promised he would destroy their enemies (has not happened) He promised there land would produce more than enough food because of rain. never happened. He promised they all would be saved, and no more would they have to go to their neighbor to teach them about God. because they all know the truth. Again has not happened.

And your right. they never had peace after they returned from exile to babylon. So this could not be the context of the OT prophets who claimed they would return after being punished by babylon, Babylon could not have been the nation. because Israel never had peace.

all these things were prophesied to happen. Yet it never has. now can you explain why. Or are you going to keep ignoring the questions?

only people who deny Jesus fulfilled Daniel 9 say this has never happened.

As I just showed you. It never did. You taking prophesy out of context and trying to spiritualize it does not mean it happened.

But thanks for at least answering. I give you credit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dispensationalism 11:31
so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may receive mercy in 2000+ years (with or without a possible rapture of the gentiles)

Romans 11:31
New International Version(©1984)
so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.

English Standard Version(©2001)
so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

New American Standard Bible(©1995)
so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

International Standard Version(©2008)
so they, too, have now disobeyed. As a result, they may receive mercy because of the mercy shown to you.

GOD'S WORD® Translation(©1995)
In the same way, the Jewish people have also disobeyed so that God may be merciful to them as he was to you.

King James Bible
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

American King James Version
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

American Standard Version
even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy.

Bible in Basic English
So in the same way these have gone against the orders of God, so that by the mercy given to you they may now get mercy.

Douay-Rheims Bible
So these also now have not believed, for your mercy, that they also may obtain mercy.

Darby Bible Translation
so these also have now not believed in your mercy, in order that they also may be objects of mercy.

English Revised Version
even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shewn to you they also may now obtain mercy.

Webster's Bible Translation
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Weymouth New Testament
so now they also have been disobedient at a time when you are receiving mercy; so that to them too there may now be mercy.

World English Bible
even so these also have now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they may also obtain mercy.

Young's Literal Translation
so also these now did not believe, that in your kindness they also may find kindness;

Why do you do this? People who teach falsly do this to make their false beliefs come true. You do not take one verse out of a passage to form a belief or doctrine. You take context of the whole passage to make a doctrine,

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[h]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

1. Why did paul call them enemies because of the gospel if they are saved, and it is spiritual israel and not physical?
2. Why did paul separate isreal and gentile?
3. When did the time of the gentiles come to an end?
4. When were these isrealites, who are our enemies at this time, saved so that ALL israel would be saved as promised?

Why are you misisng out on the mystery that says although Israel has been cut off because of unbelief, and gentiles have been grafted in (the church) that Paul makes it clear. when the gentile time has come to an end, Israel will be grafted back in??

and ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED>

 

[zone]

Why do you do this? People who teach falsly do this to make their false beliefs come true. You do not take one verse out of a passage to form a belief or doctrine. You take context of the whole passage to make a doctrine,

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,[g] as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[h]

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

1. Why did paul call them enemies because of the gospel if they are saved, and it is spiritual israel and not physical?
2. Why did paul separate isreal and gentile?
3. When did the time of the gentiles come to an end?
4. When were these isrealites, who are our enemies at this time, saved so that ALL israel would be saved as promised?

Why are you misisng out on the mystery that says although Israel has been cut off because of unbelief, and gentiles have been grafted in (the church) that Paul makes it clear. when the gentile time has come to an end, Israel will be grafted back in??

and ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED>

Paul is quoting someone:

as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Isaiah 59:20
"The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins," declares the LORD. (NIV)

"The Redeemer will come to Jerusalem to buy back those in Israel who have turned from their sins," says the LORD (NLT)

“And a Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the LORD (ESV)

"A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD. (NASB)

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. (KJV)

John 12
The Triumphal Entry
12The next day the large crowd that had come to the feast heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem. 13So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!” 14And Jesus found a young donkey and sat on it, just as it is written,

15 “Fear not, daughter of Zion;
behold, your king is coming,
sitting on a donkey’s colt!”

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Matthew 21:5 "Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'

Matthew 2:2 and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

Matthew 21:5 "Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'"

Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Psalm 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker; let the people of Zion be glad in their King.

Acts 2
36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Matthew 3:6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Mark 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Luke 3:10 "What should we do then?" the crowd asked.

Luke 24:47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Acts 5:31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:15 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,

Acts 8:16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Acts 10:45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

Acts 10:48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Acts 13:38 "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Instead of complaining about having to do some real work, for once, in support of a position you believe in, quit whining and present the evidence in an organized coherent manner so we can properly evaluate it.

What would satisfy you as proof?

Even if I quoted talmudic jews themselves admitting they control the worlds media would that do any good?

Even if I quoted the talmud saying its acceptable for jews to lie and cheat and steal from gentiles and that they must bring the world to its knees or destroy those who oppose..... would that prove anything to you?

Even if I outlined the dominant power of the Rothschild financial empire what would that mean to you? Lolz...even a Rothschild admitting he controls the worlds finances wouldnt make any difference to you would it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Paul is quoting someone:

as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Isaiah 59:20
"The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins," declares the LORD. (NIV)

"The Redeemer will come to Jerusalem to buy back those in Israel who have turned from their sins," says the LORD (NLT)

“And a Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the LORD (ESV)

"A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD. (NASB)

And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. (KJV)

John 12
The Triumphal Entry
12The next day the large crowd that had come to the feast heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem. 13So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!” 14And Jesus found a young donkey and sat on it, just as it is written,

15 “Fear not, daughter of Zion;
behold, your king is coming,
sitting on a donkey’s colt!”

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Matthew 21:5 "Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'

Matthew 2:2 and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

Matthew 21:5 "Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.'"

Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

Psalm 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker; let the people of Zion be glad in their King.

Acts 2
36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Matthew 3:6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

Mark 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

Luke 3:10 "What should we do then?" the crowd asked.

Luke 24:47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Acts 5:31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:15 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,

Acts 8:16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Acts 10:45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.

Acts 10:48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Acts 13:38 "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

there you go again.

I repeat myself. you did not answer the question Zone. Your beating around the bush! Here I will repost everything, and leave out the quote you just co0mmented on, Which has NOTHING to do with the questions I asked!

Why do you do this? People who teach falsly do this to make their false beliefs come true. You do not take one verse out of a passage to form a belief or doctrine. You take context of the whole passage to make a doctrine,

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

1. Why did paul call them enemies because of the gospel if they are saved, and it is spiritual israel and not physical?
2. Why did paul separate isreal and gentile?
3. When did the time of the gentiles come to an end?
4. When were these isrealites, who are our enemies at this time, saved so that ALL israel would be saved as promised?

Why are you missng out on the mystery that says although Israel has been cut off because of unbelief, and gentiles have been grafted in (the church) that Paul makes it clear. when the gentile time has come to an end, Israel will be grafted back in??

and ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED

 

[Strangelove]

Instead of complaining about having to do some real work, for once, in support of a position you believe in, quit whining and present the evidence in an organized coherent manner so we can properly evaluate it.

So now you want evidence.....not proof?

What evidence would satisfy you?

Why dont you investigate it for yourself. Do some homework. Most of the stuff you've been told by the establishment is a lie. You probably believe 100% in some of the biggest lies ever foisted in mankind. Stuff that you couldnt give me any proof for. Nada.

I'll tell you what...you gimme proof that the Earth spins on its axis and I'll give you whatever evidence you want concerning the synagogue of satan. Should be easy enough right?

Lets see how easy it is for you to give me proof on summink you absolutely believe without any doubt.

 

[Strangelove]

there you go again.

I repeat myself. you did not answer the question Zone. Your beating around the bush! Here I will repost everything, and leave out the quote you just co0mmented on, Which has NOTHING to do with the questions I asked!

Why do you do this? People who teach falsly do this to make their false beliefs come true. You do not take one verse out of a passage to form a belief or doctrine. You take context of the whole passage to make a doctrine,

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved,

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

1. Why did paul call them enemies because of the gospel if they are saved, and it is spiritual israel and not physical?
2. Why did paul separate isreal and gentile?
3. When did the time of the gentiles come to an end?
4. When were these isrealites, who are our enemies at this time, saved so that ALL israel would be saved as promised?

Why are you missng out on the mystery that says although Israel has been cut off because of unbelief, and gentiles have been grafted in (the church) that Paul makes it clear. when the gentile time has come to an end, Israel will be grafted back in??

and ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED

Dude..the fullness of the gentiles came in.

The mystery was that the division between Jew and Gentile was to be BROKEN DOWN.

Why dont you try reading some non-dispy scholars.

BARNES

Rom 11:25
Ignorant of this mystery - The word “mystery” means properly what is “concealed, hidden, or unknown.” And it especially refers, in the New Testament, to the truths or doctrines which God had reserved to himself, or had not before communicated. It does not mean, as with us often, that there was anything unintelligible or inscrutible in the nature of the doctrine itself, for it was commonly perfectly plain when it was made known. Thus, the doctrine, that the division between the Jews and the Gentiles was to be broken down, is called a mystery, because it had been, to the times of the apostles, concealed, and was then revealed fully for the first time; Rom_16:25; Col_1:26-27; compare 1Co_15:51; Mar_4:11; Eph_1:9; Eph_3:3. Thus, the doctrine which the apostle was stating was one that until then had been concealed, or had not been made known. It does not mean that there was anything unintelligible or incomprehensive in it, but until then it had not been made known.
Lest ye should be wise in your own conceits - Paul communicated the truth in regard to this, lest they should attempt to inquire into it; should speculate about the reason why God had rejected the Jews; and should he elated with the belief that they had, by their own skill and genius, ascertained the cause. Rather than leave them to vain speculations and self-gratulation, he chose to cut short all inquiry, by stating the truth about; their present and future state.
Blindness - Or hardness; see Rom_11:7.
In part - Not totally, or entirely. They are not absolutely or completely blinded. This is a qualifying expression; but it does not denote what part or portion, or for what time it is to continue. It means that the blindness in respect to the whole nation was only partial. Some were then enlightened, and had become Christians; and many more would he.
To Israel - To the Jews.
Until the fulness of the Gentiles ... - The word “fulness” in relation to the Jews is used in Rom_11:12. It means until the abundance or the great multitude of the Gentiles shall be converted. The word is not used elsewhere in respect to the Gentiles; and it is difficult to fix its meaning definitely. It doubtless refers to the future spread of the Gospel among the nations; to the time when it may be said that the great mass, the abundance of the nations, shall be converted to God. At present, they are, as they were in the times of the apostle, idolators, so that the mass of mankind are far from God. But the Scriptures have spoken of a time when the gospel shall spread and prevail among the nations of the earth; and to this the apostle refers. He does not say, however, that the Jews may not be converted until all the Gentiles become Christians; for he expressly supposes Rom_11:12-15 that the conversion of the Jews will have an important influence in extending the gospel among the Gentiles. Probably the meaning is, that this blindness is to continue until great numbers of the Gentiles shall be converted; until the gospel shall be extensively spread; and then the conversion of the Jews will be a part of the rapid spread of the gospel, and will be among the most efficient and important aids in completing the work. If this is the case, then Christians may labor still for their conversion. They may seek that in connection with the effort to convert the pagan; and they may toil with the expectation that the conversion of the Jews and Gentiles will not be separate, independent, and distinct events; but will be inter-mingled, and will be perhaps simultaneous. The word “fulness” may denote such a general turning to God, without affirming that each individual shall be thus converted to the Christian faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dude..the fullness of the gentiles came in.

The mystery was that the division between Jew and Gentile was to be BROKEN DOWN.

Why dont you try reading some non-dispy scholars.

Nice try,

So Has the blindness been removed from Isreal? I think we all wopuld agree that they are still blinded.

hardening has happened to Israel until the (AP)fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

If Isreal is still hardened. Whan how can the fullness of the gentiles be completed?

You don't make sense. Well except maybe to yourself.

This verse says there still is a division. Israel is hardened, Gentiles are being filled.

Why do you want to break down the barrier that Paul had in place.

also. Paul spoke of a future event, Not a past already done thing. Why do you want to make it past?

BARNES

Rom 11:25
Ignorant of this mystery - The word “mystery” means properly what is “concealed, hidden, or unknown.” And it especially refers, in the New Testament, to the truths or doctrines which God had reserved to himself, or had not before communicated. It does not mean, as with us often, that there was anything unintelligible or inscrutible in the nature of the doctrine itself, for it was commonly perfectly plain when it was made known. Thus, the doctrine, that the division between the Jews and the Gentiles was to be broken down, is called a mystery, because it had been, to the times of the apostles, concealed, and was then revealed fully for the first time; Rom_16:25; Col_1:26-27; compare 1Co_15:51; Mar_4:11; Eph_1:9; Eph_3:3. Thus, the doctrine which the apostle was stating was one that until then had been concealed, or had not been made known. It does not mean that there was anything unintelligible or incomprehensive in it, but until then it had not been made known.
Lest ye should be wise in your own conceits - Paul communicated the truth in regard to this, lest they should attempt to inquire into it; should speculate about the reason why God had rejected the Jews; and should he elated with the belief that they had, by their own skill and genius, ascertained the cause. Rather than leave them to vain speculations and self-gratulation, he chose to cut short all inquiry, by stating the truth about; their present and future state.
Blindness - Or hardness; see Rom_11:7.
In part - Not totally, or entirely. They are not absolutely or completely blinded. This is a qualifying expression; but it does not denote what part or portion, or for what time it is to continue. It means that the blindness in respect to the whole nation was only partial. Some were then enlightened, and had become Christians; and many more would he.
To Israel - To the Jews.
Until the fulness of the Gentiles ... - The word “fulness” in relation to the Jews is used in Rom_11:12. It means until the abundance or the great multitude of the Gentiles shall be converted. The word is not used elsewhere in respect to the Gentiles; and it is difficult to fix its meaning definitely. It doubtless refers to the future spread of the Gospel among the nations; to the time when it may be said that the great mass, the abundance of the nations, shall be converted to God. At present, they are, as they were in the times of the apostle, idolators, so that the mass of mankind are far from God. But the Scriptures have spoken of a time when the gospel shall spread and prevail among the nations of the earth; and to this the apostle refers. He does not say, however, that the Jews may not be converted until all the Gentiles become Christians; for he expressly supposes Rom_11:12-15 that the conversion of the Jews will have an important influence in extending the gospel among the Gentiles. Probably the meaning is, that this blindness is to continue until great numbers of the Gentiles shall be converted; until the gospel shall be extensively spread; and then the conversion of the Jews will be a part of the rapid spread of the gospel, and will be among the most efficient and important aids in completing the work. If this is the case, then Christians may labor still for their conversion. They may seek that in connection with the effort to convert the pagan; and they may toil with the expectation that the conversion of the Jews and Gentiles will not be separate, independent, and distinct events; but will be inter-mingled, and will be perhaps simultaneous. The word “fulness” may denote such a general turning to God, without affirming that each individual shall be thus converted to the Christian faith.

[/quote]

As I tell scott. Instead of listening to men and being churched. why don't you study for yourself.

Israel is blind. The gentiles (church) is being filled.

when this is complete. ALL Israel will be saved.

It gets NO CLEARER than this

 

[Abiding]

I dont get why you call it a gentile church..and appears you believe the promise to all Israel is
the natural seed. wont debate it, but thats what I observe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I dont get why you call it a gentile church..and appears you believe the promise to all Israel is
the natural seed. wont debate it, but thats what I observe.

Abiding. Where did the church Go to? Israel or the gentiles? Did not God try to give it to Israel bu Israel was hardened and rejected it? So what did God do? He gave it to the gentiles. Who is most of the church made up of?

If the time of Israel ended with Christ. where did the time of the gentiles come into play?

What I am doing is showing that their are two promises.

one to all mankind (through Christ) (spiritual isreal)

and one to the natural seed (Christ has nothing to do with this promise. except to be her king) The promises were being fulfilled long before Christ even came into the picture in bethlehem.

 

[Strangelove]

So Has the blindness been removed from Isreal? I think we all wopuld agree that they are still blinded.

Ok stop right there.

You dont know WHO Israel is.

Who is Israel? How do you know theyre blinded?

I know MODERN JEWS are blinded. And so are muslims and buddhists etc.

But who sayz they are Israel?

Why do you keep making observations about a group of people that you dont even know?