Eastern Orthodoxy is not Talmud Pharisaism (Mishnaism).

Scotth1960 · Aug 29, 2011

Dear friend, I have not mocked or criticized anyone. I have been fair and balanced.
I merely disagreed. Disagreeing is not mocking or criticizing. I have always been fair with everyone. In Erie Scott
PS If anything I say comes across as mocking, I do not intend it. I am not perfect. Perhaps I will fail to make my intentions clearly understood. If so, I sincerely apologize. God bless all of you: truly!

Strangelove · Aug 30, 2011

Anyway...we were here:

You trust MEN enough to risk NECROMANCY.

Why not just NOT risk it? It is an abomination to the Lord, and theres a good chance that you practice this abomination.

There is no command to pray to saints. Therefore we dont need to.

By doing so, and trying to ensnare others ito yor sect that practices this, is to bring people into danger.

All from a matter of trust of MEN.

(Deuteronomy 18:10) There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,

(Deuteronomy 18:11) Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

(Deuteronomy 18:12) For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Scotty has still failed to provide answers.

Consumed · Aug 30, 2011

This is and has been my favorite thread to read 

Scotth1960 · Aug 30, 2011

Strangelove said:

Here's the answers, Strangelove:

"Catholic Answers Forums forums.catholic.com

"How is praying to the saints not necromancy?

"Reference to Deut. 18:11 and the story of Saul calling on Samuel (1 Samuel 28:15). Thanks for your insights.

Answer:
"Very simple. Necromancy is practiced by what we would call "witch doctors" or "satanist" where the practitioner tries to summon the spirit of a deceased person, either an apparition or ghost, or to raise them bodily, for the purpose of trying to gain insight or prophesy the future.
"I don't know of any prayer to a saint that comes close to doing what the above suggests."

Answer:
"Prayer to saints is exactly the same thing as asking our fellow Christians to pray for us ....
"Necromancy is summoning spirits of the dead to obtain knowledge that is beyond us, or influencing events by some (presumed) supernatural power."

God bless your Mr. Strangelove. Amen.

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Consumed · Aug 30, 2011

I suppose that leaves the question which saints were the first church praying to then, St Elijah, St Jeremiah, St Samuel????

Just a question

Scotth1960 · Aug 30, 2011

Consumed said:

Dear Consumed.
Protestantism has a problem with the idea of saints. It teaches such that the priesthood of all believers. It tends to make a saint out of oneself, with "blessed assurance" of salvation, "("Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine ...." emphasis added), but is rugged individualism, in need of the intercessions of no others, or few others. It's all personal prayer by oneself alone to God. It has no concept of "the communion of saints", or, at least, doesn't take that concept seriously. And it also tends to raise the Protestant Reformers above the other Christians (the Church Fathers) who happened 1500 years before the Reformation. It has a concept of the NT saints, but after the NT era, it waits 1500 years to have any "Protestant saints" (Reformers).
Were there no saints between 100 AD and 1483 AD with the birth of Martin Luther?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

zone · Aug 30, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

Dear Consumed.
Protestantism has a problem with the idea of saints. It teaches such that the priesthood of all believers. It tends to make a saint out of oneself, with "blessed assurance" of salvation, "("Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine ...." emphasis added), but is rugged individualism, in need of the intercessions of no others, or few others. It's all personal prayer by oneself alone to God. It has no concept of "the communion of saints", or, at least, doesn't take that concept seriously. And it also tends to raise the Protestant Reformers above the other Christians (the Church Fathers) who happened 1500 years before the Reformation. It has a concept of the NT saints, but after the NT era, it waits 1500 years to have any "Protestant saints" (Reformers).
Were there no saints between 100 AD and 1483 AD with the birth of Martin Luther?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

ONE MEDIATOR.

Scotth1960 · Aug 30, 2011

zone said:

The Greek word for "one" in this verse is "eis", not "mono". So that does not exclude the possibility of other intercessors before God. Look at the book of Revelation; the 24 elders all pray before the throne of God. It is not only Christ praying to God the Father to mediate for us; it is the whole Church in heaven that is praying in heaven for the whole church on earth.
Protestantism disagrees. It's one mediator and one Christian: oneself. Every man/woman comes to God by himself/herself. It is strange that Protestants even have any preachers, with the implications of their individualist doctrine.

Strangelove · Aug 30, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

Talking to fellow LIVING human beings is fine.

Talking to dead people is not. If it doesn't fit NECROMANCY then it definately fits CONSULTING FAMILIAR SPIRITS.

Why not just NOT risk it? It is an abomination to the Lord, and theres a good chance that you practice this abomination.

Again I reiterate. you DONT KNOW you are praying to saints. For all you know they are dead people. Uoi even admit this so I ask again why are you praying to dead people?

Strangelove · Aug 30, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

Soctt...you dont know who's up there praying to God so trying to consult with them is risky business.

An abomination in fact.

Unless you have the godlike ability to know who the saints are? Do you?

zone · Aug 30, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1520. heis
one

Original Word: εἷς, μία, ἕν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: heis
Phonetic Spelling: (hice)
Short Definition: one
Definition: one.

agreement (1), alike* (1), alone (3), common (1), detail (1), first (9), individual (2), individually* (1), lone (1), man (1), nothing* (1), one (282), one another (1), one man (2), one thing (5), one* (2), person (1), single (1), smallest (1), someone (2), thirty-nine* (1), unity (1).

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

3762. oudeis and outheis, oudemia,
no one, none

Original Word: οὐδείς, οὐδεμία, οὐδέν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: oudeis and outheis, oudemia, ouden and outhen
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-dice')
Short Definition: no one, none, nothing
Definition: no one, none, nothing.

3762 oudeís (from 3756 /ou "no, not" and 1520 /heís, "one") – properly, not one; no one, nothing.

3762 /oudeís ("no one, nothing at all") is a powerful negating conjunction. It rules out by definition, i.e. "shuts the door" objectively and leaves no exceptions. 3762 (oudeís) is deductive in force so it excludes every (any) example that is included withing the premise (supposition).

[3762 /oudeís ("not one, none") categorically excludes, declaring as a fact that no valid example exists.]

Scotth1960 · Aug 30, 2011

Strangelove said:

Do you believe that to be "absent with the body is to be present with the LORD?
" Are you saying the Virgin Mary, St. Andrew, St. Peter, St. John, St. Paul, St. Matthew, and so on, are not present with the Lord? Why do you call them dead? The part that lives forever is the soul-spirit. The body is only temporarily dead.
What do you do with the 24 elders in Revelation? Are they not alive?
Don't they intercede?
You haven't proved this is necromancy. You ignored what Catholic Answers said. And what they said was correct. Because both Catholics and Orthodox understand and get this doctrine right.
For the Protestant, the only one who intercedes with him with God besides Jesus Christ is the individual himself. It is not logical then to ask the living to pray for you, if all you need is yourself and God. If the living can pray for you, then the departed saints can pray, because they are alive in God. Death is a temporary state and is not a barrier for believers. The saints in heaven are alive with God. A saint is more than his body.

Scotth1960 · Aug 30, 2011

zone said:

Dear friend,
"For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel." 1 Cor. 4:15 RSV CE Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition

If our fathers through the Gospel are not allowed to pray for (intercede for) us before Christ, because Christ is the only one to pray for us, then why did Christ command His Church to pray, "Our Father Who art in heaven ....?" If the Church can pray as Christ said, can the Church not pray for each other? (cf. James). Why does death present a barrier to prayer? Why can't the departed saints pray for the living? On what basis do you say that they can no longer pray, since they are dead? Don't you believe the souls of the saints are with the Lord in heaven?
God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Strangelove · Aug 30, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

Do you believe that to be "absent with the body is to be present with the LORD?
" Are you saying the Virgin Mary, St. Andrew, St. Peter, St. John, St. Paul, St. Matthew, and so on, are not present with the Lord? Why do you call them dead? The part that lives forever is the soul-spirit. The body is only temporarily dead.
What do you do with the 24 elders in Revelation? Are they not alive?
Don't they intercede?
You haven't proved this is necromancy. You ignored what Catholic Answers said. And what they said was correct. Because both Catholics and Orthodox understand and get this doctrine right.
For the Protestant, the only one who intercedes with him with God besides Jesus Christ is the individual himself. It is not logical then to ask the living to pray for you, if all you need is yourself and God. If the living can pray for you, then the departed saints can pray, because they are alive in God. Death is a temporary state and is not a barrier for believers. The saints in heaven are alive with God. A saint is more than his body.

I dont ask the living or the dead to pray for me.

How do you know basil is alive and with God? what about all the other 'saints' your church has proclaimed?

What is they were closet witches?

Scotth1960 · Aug 30, 2011

Strangelove said:

Dear Strangelove!
You don't ask anyone to pray for you, and you don't pray for anyone?
Is James 5:16 in the Bible? Yes.
"Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." James 5:16 NKJV

God bless you, dear Mr. Strangelove! In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Are you saying Saint Paul is not alive with God? Neither are Saint Matthew, Saint Mark, Saint Luke, Saint John, Saint James, Saint Jude, Saint Peter?
So most of the people mentioned as Christians in the NT, are, according to Strangelove, not alive in heaven. How do you know that?
How do you know Basil is not alive with God?

Muskokaman · Aug 30, 2011

Strangelove said:

This was such a heated debate in the time of the reformation and ....apparently it still is today.

Why do you need a man between you and the Lord for intercession this was one of the most hotly debated topics during the reformation period.

I ask you this: Do not both doctrines state, Catholicism and Orthodoxyism in their scriptures

John 14:6 (Whole Chapter)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Going on this platform then would mean there is no need for an intermediary this is why the Catholic church and her allies persecuted reformists in the middle ages because they saw it as an attack on their very authority which they attempted to usurp from the Lord in the first place. That is why it says;
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Scotth1960 · Aug 30, 2011

Muskokaman said:

Luther abandoned the authority of the pope for his own authority. It was all "Self-authority", and private interpretation of relationship with Christ. This does not happen in the Orthodox Church. When asked why he was adding words to the New Testament, Luther stated in his own defense: "It is so because I, Dr. Martin Luther, say it is so!"
John 14:6 does not say, No man cometh unto the Father, except by himself (with no help from anybody else other than Jesus). If that is so, how could anybody baptize anybody else (Matthew 28:19), for that would be interfering in a personal relation of each isolated person with God (?)

eternally-gratefull · Aug 30, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

My My Scott. You should study the truth. and not listen to men who tell you things. You might find out what they tell you is wrong.

The greek word used is εἷς, It is used twice. One God and One mediator.

ΕἿΣ, μίᾱ, ἕν; gen. ἑνός, μιᾶς, ἑνός:—Ep. lengthd. ἕεις:—Ep. fem. ἴᾰ, gen. ἰῆς; dat. ἰῇ; a neut. dat. (ἰῷ κίον ἤματ&#953

also occurs in Il. (The orig. form was prob.ἝΝΣ, cf. Lat. un-us. The fem. μία points to a second Root, cf. οἶος with μόνος.)
1. one, Hom., etc.; εἷς οἶος, μία οἴη a single one, one alone, Id.; εἷσμόνος Hdt.

Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon : Abridged from Liddell and Scott's Greek-English lexicon (231). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Scotth1960 · Aug 30, 2011

eternally-gratefull said:

My My Scott. You should study the truth.

and not listen to men who tell you things. You might find out

what they tell you is wrong.

Dear eternallygratefull:

I might also find out what you tell me is wrong, correct?

But I am sure that the Orthodox are not wrong.

The Orthodox Church is what it says, and says what it is: Orthodox:

Right belief.

How do I know that what you tell me is not wrong? You are a man. If

I listen to you, I would be listening to a man. Your logic is faulty.

It is not listening to men that is wrong. It is listening to "traditions of

men". Some men, however, should be listened too, as they are in the

apostolic succession from Christ (the one true Church [EOC]), and they

teach the true apostolic traditions of Christ (2 Thess. 2:15). The

Church (1 Tim. 3:15), not the "traditions of men", is the "pillar and

ground of the Truth". God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Dear eternallygratefull:

As for your Greek citation, I am not a native speaker of Greek, so I

would call on Cleante from Greece to clarify this matter. He would

know better than either you, or me, or Liddell, what eis means in this

verse from Paul's epistle to Timothy. I am not impressed by people

who try to disprove the Apostolic Traditions of the One Church. They

prove the follow of their ways 38,000 and more times over. Some day,

Protestantism, may divided even further into 50,000 different

denominations. But for the grace of God, it could splinter and schism

(divide) into 100,000 different man-made denominations worldwide.

Or 200,000. There is theoretically nothing at all except the Holy Spirit

to prevent further Protestant heresies and chaos and schisms and sects

and religions of men and cults. Not all people listen to the Holy Spirit,

or know Him. Not all people learn "the way, the truth, and the life".

Not all people have received answers from the only One Who can give

right answers, the All-Holy Spirit of Christ Who proceedeth from the

Father (John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:13). God save us all and

bring us to a saving knowledge of the truth. Amen. In Erie PA USA

August 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

The greek word used is εἷς, It is used twice. One God and One

mediator.

It says one mediator. Does it mean there can be only one mediator?

Dear eternallygratefull:

Or can it mean only one mediator, but many intercessors through the

one mediator? What is the use of intercessory prayer if St. James 5:16

is false. It does say we should pray for each other, and that is a form

of mediation for each other, intercession that is. ISTM, there is not

much difference between mediation and intercession. I don't know. I

could be wrong. Perhaps Cleante, our Greek Orthodox friend, can

explain this for us: Cleante, is there is a difference between a mediator

and an intercessor?

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

ΕἿΣ, μίᾱ, ἕν; gen. ἑνός, μιᾶς, ἑνός:—Ep. lengthd. ἕεις:—Ep. fem. ἴᾰ,

gen. ἰῆς; dat. ἰῇ; a neut. dat. (ἰῷ κίον ἤματ&#953

also occurs in Il. (The

orig. form was prob.ἝΝΣ, cf. Lat. un-us. The fem. μία points to a

second Root, cf. οἶος with μόνος.)

1. one, Hom., etc.; εἷς οἶος, μία οἴη a single one, one alone, Id.;

εἷσμόνος Hdt.

Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon : Abridged from Liddell and Scott's Greek-

English lexicon (231). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems,

Inc.

Muskokaman · Aug 30, 2011

Scotth1960 said:

Luther abandoned the authority of the pope because of practices he sanctioned within the church which were NOT of sound doctrine but of the minds of men I.E purgatory, selling of indulgences, etc. etc. etc. and saw no other way than to say SOLA SCRIPTURA because the minds of men in prominent positions in the church were so corrupt that it was obvious even for a blind man to see the heresies being commited by the church in the name of our Lord JESUS CHRIST and the only way for the spirit of the Word not to be lost was to DIVIDE it just as the LORD divided Israel and Judah So it was done to the Catholic Church. This was done so the true message of JESUS CHRIST would not perish but be forever as was spoken.
So far as my quote it was copy and pasted from KJV so I'm not surprised if the book your reading is different than mine!

SELAH

Eastern Orthodoxy is not Talmud Pharisaism (Mishnaism).

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