Question about Communion
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Hey @Omegatime
I agree with you that the bread used with Jesus and the disciples in that first 'communion' was surely with unleavened bread, I would think that making an issue of it would be putting oneself back under the old covenant. However, I think most fellowships do use unleavened forms of 'bread'. Although, I'm honestly hard-pressed to call some of those hard little chips that are used today, bread. But the service is for remembrance, and I don't think Jesus gave any instructions on the elements. Just that we know it was unleavened because that was the old covenant law of the Passover meal.
Anyway, I can surely understand your point.
God bless,
Ted
I agree with you that the bread used with Jesus and the disciples in that first 'communion' was surely with unleavened bread, I would think that making an issue of it would be putting oneself back under the old covenant. However, I think most fellowships do use unleavened forms of 'bread'. Although, I'm honestly hard-pressed to call some of those hard little chips that are used today, bread. But the service is for remembrance, and I don't think Jesus gave any instructions on the elements. Just that we know it was unleavened because that was the old covenant law of the Passover meal.
Anyway, I can surely understand your point.
God bless,
Ted
Really? Even though Christ said it was under the New Covenant? And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the New Testament, [COVENANT] which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:26-28)
How do you manage to get yourself so confused? The New Covenant is being established right here, and there is no question that Christ took unleavened bread. He was observing His last Passover on earth, and He would be the first to meticulously follow what is written.
But Christ already anticipated His crucifixion (His broken body) and His shed blood on the cross. "It is finished" put an end to the Old Covenant and established the New Covenant. But God and Christ already saw everything as being fulfilled long before it happened.
The words "testament" and "covenant" are used interchangeably in the NT for the Greek diatheke.
How do you manage to get yourself so confused? The New Covenant is being established right here, and there is no question that Christ took unleavened bread. He was observing His last Passover on earth, and He would be the first to meticulously follow what is written.
But Christ already anticipated His crucifixion (His broken body) and His shed blood on the cross. "It is finished" put an end to the Old Covenant and established the New Covenant. But God and Christ already saw everything as being fulfilled long before it happened.
The words "testament" and "covenant" are used interchangeably in the NT for the Greek diatheke.
Hey @Nehemiah6
Well, I'm just saying how I see it. That Jesus didn't make any issue about the bread in all of this. We just know that it would have been unleavened bread. Now, I'm talking about Jesus here. Yes, I know that under the old law the Jew was supposed to eat unleavened bread at the meal for which he was sacrificing his lamb. We are also supposed to have bitter herbs and a few other things for the Passover meal, if that's what you want the communion to be about. But Jesus didn't say anything about the bread. He did however say, that the ceremony or ordinance as some will call it, is for remembrance. Now is it your position then that any such ceremony, to properly remember the Lord and what he has done for us, can only be valid if one is using unleavened bread for the elements?
God bless,
Ted
Well, I'm just saying how I see it. That Jesus didn't make any issue about the bread in all of this. We just know that it would have been unleavened bread. Now, I'm talking about Jesus here. Yes, I know that under the old law the Jew was supposed to eat unleavened bread at the meal for which he was sacrificing his lamb. We are also supposed to have bitter herbs and a few other things for the Passover meal, if that's what you want the communion to be about. But Jesus didn't say anything about the bread. He did however say, that the ceremony or ordinance as some will call it, is for remembrance. Now is it your position then that any such ceremony, to properly remember the Lord and what he has done for us, can only be valid if one is using unleavened bread for the elements?
God bless,
Ted
Yes. More than true, but obviously not for you. According to you I am dishonest and do not post the truth, but according to Scripture I am the opposite. In fact I should not even be bothering to respond to your hostile posts which controvert the truth.
THE CORRUPT DOCTRINE OF THE PHARISEES & SADDUCEES
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees... Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. (Mt 16:6-12)
THE CORRUPTION OF CHRISTENDOM WITH FALSE DOCTRINES
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. (Mt 13:33) Has Christendom been corrupted wirh false doctrines>
1 COR 5: MALICE AND WICKEDNESS AMONG CHRISTIANS IS LEAVEN
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
THE CORRUPT DOCTRINE OF THE PHARISEES & SADDUCEES
Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees... Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. (Mt 16:6-12)
THE CORRUPTION OF CHRISTENDOM WITH FALSE DOCTRINES
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. (Mt 13:33) Has Christendom been corrupted wirh false doctrines>
1 COR 5: MALICE AND WICKEDNESS AMONG CHRISTIANS IS LEAVEN
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Help for the scripturally inept.
There are hundreds of species of yeast. Passover prohibition only applies to yeast which is a product of one of the following five grains: wheat, barley, oat, spelt, or rye. Yeast which is the product of grapes, or its sugars, is not considered leavened (chametz).
The unleavened BREAD represents Christ' body. The WINE His blood.
There are hundreds of species of yeast. Passover prohibition only applies to yeast which is a product of one of the following five grains: wheat, barley, oat, spelt, or rye. Yeast which is the product of grapes, or its sugars, is not considered leavened (chametz).
The unleavened BREAD represents Christ' body. The WINE His blood.
Not true according to Scripture. In Matthew 13:33, JESUS said, "The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." According to you, the kingdom of heaven being compared to leaven means it is sinful and corrupt. Likewise in Luke 13:20-21~ Again He (JESUS) asked, “To what can I compare the kingdom of God? It is like leaven that a woman took and mixed into three measures of flour, until all of it was leavened.” You contradict the words of Jesus. In Leviticus 23:17, the feast of Pentecost is to be celebrated with leaven-baked bread. Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD. Are these first fruits unto the Lord also sinful and corrupt according to you? Or will you acknowledge your error, tender an apology, and withdraw your hostility? One can always hope... even though you have steadfastly refused to apologize to me for all your hostility and bearing of false witness.
1 Corinthians 11:21
For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of [others;] and one is hungry and another is drunk.
Clearly they were drinking wine during the time of the apostles, because some were getting drunk.
Paul's admonishment was not that it should be fresh grape juice instead of wine, which is natural, but that they were thinking only of themselves, not sharing.
This also shows us that it is not a mere sip and nibble, but a fellowship supper - because some were going hungry, and it should not be so.
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some interesting discussion on this topic here, with references -
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/wine-during-passover-lords-supper-rpw.7659/
https://www.puritanboard.com/threads/wine-during-passover-lords-supper-rpw.7659/
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Why does Christ make wine from water in John 2, if wine represents sin, owing to the involvement of yeast in its creation?
The argument for strict grape juice at the Passover meal is both unhistorical and unpersuasive. The Jews had a tradition of four cups of wine at the Seder at least a century before Christ, each in remberance of the four promises of Exodus 6:6-7 - - I will bring you out, I will rid you of your bondage, I will redeem you, and I will make you my people and I will be your God. It is the fourth cup, after the meal, that Christ says remember - declaring Himself God.
and there is also historical evidence that the phrase "fruit of the vine" was used in their tradition as reference purely to wine, purely to wine when used in liturgy.
If we accept this we see Christ directly identifying Himself with YHWH, tying the two covenants together by a promise - but if we reject it, we divorce scripture from scripture, imposing a modern strict abstinence on the text that simply isn't there, one which none of the Jews of the first church would have agreed with, and which none of the church fathers ever held.
just my opinion
The argument for strict grape juice at the Passover meal is both unhistorical and unpersuasive. The Jews had a tradition of four cups of wine at the Seder at least a century before Christ, each in remberance of the four promises of Exodus 6:6-7 - - I will bring you out, I will rid you of your bondage, I will redeem you, and I will make you my people and I will be your God. It is the fourth cup, after the meal, that Christ says remember - declaring Himself God.
and there is also historical evidence that the phrase "fruit of the vine" was used in their tradition as reference purely to wine, purely to wine when used in liturgy.
If we accept this we see Christ directly identifying Himself with YHWH, tying the two covenants together by a promise - but if we reject it, we divorce scripture from scripture, imposing a modern strict abstinence on the text that simply isn't there, one which none of the Jews of the first church would have agreed with, and which none of the church fathers ever held.
just my opinion
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Yes, the fellowship supper was observed BEFORE the Lord's Supper, and they were indeed getting drunk. But had these Gentiles followed the ancient Jewish (and pagan) custom of mingling wine with water they would not have gotten drunk. The ratio could be as much as 20:1 (water to wine) to as little as 3:1. Clearly the Corinthians were violating Christian love for the brethren and being very carnal (and Paul had already addressed that). They also spilled over into tongues-speaking for display rather than edification.
We don't really know what kind of wine this was but it certainly excluded yeast. It was simply water -----> wine within seconds.
Nazarites and priests were forbidden to drink wine or strong drink because they were separated unto God for service. Even Samson's mother was forbidden to drink before his birth. John the Baptist was also forbidden. When Christ's enemies accused Him of being a wine-bibber, that was a false acccusation.
Christ would not violate His own teachings in the OT regarding wine and strong drink. So that should settle the matter. Strong drink would be similar to whisky etc.
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Prov 20:1) It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. (Prov 31:4-6 and Christians are kings and priests). Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!... Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: (Isa 5:11.22) But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. (Isa 28:7)
Nazarites and priests were forbidden to drink wine or strong drink because they were separated unto God for service. Even Samson's mother was forbidden to drink before his birth. John the Baptist was also forbidden. When Christ's enemies accused Him of being a wine-bibber, that was a false acccusation.
Christ would not violate His own teachings in the OT regarding wine and strong drink. So that should settle the matter. Strong drink would be similar to whisky etc.
Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Prov 20:1) It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. (Prov 31:4-6 and Christians are kings and priests). Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!... Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: (Isa 5:11.22) But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. (Isa 28:7)
I already did provide Scripture which proves @Nehemiah6 wrong. Right on this page, even. See post number 29.
You seem to be misunderstanding the nature of parables. Parables are like pictures. The entire picture tells the story, but in describing a picture using words one must start with some particular aspects of the picture and then add others. When Jesus says that the kingdom of God is like [this picture], He does not intend us to assume that the first element of the picture is the only thing that represents the kingdom in the picture. The entire picture represents the kingdom and how it works.
These parables are equivalent:
"The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."
"The kingdom of heaven is like a woman who took leaven and hid it in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."
"The kingdom of heaven is like three measures of meal in which a woman hid leaven, till the whole was leavened."
"The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and his in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."
It is a picture revealing a particular dynamic that occurs in the Kingdom of God: that a woman (the harlot, false religion) will insinuate into the three measures of meal (the church) leaven (hypocrisy) until eventually the whole church becomes leavened (hypocritical). "When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?" Lu. 18:18
"That day of the Lord will not come until a great falling away comes first. and the son of perdition sits in the temple of God, the church, pretending to be God." 2 Thess. 2:3-4
"A little leaven leavens the whole lump." 1 Cor. 5:6; Gal. 5:9
These parables are equivalent:
"The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."
"The kingdom of heaven is like a woman who took leaven and hid it in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."
"The kingdom of heaven is like three measures of meal in which a woman hid leaven, till the whole was leavened."
"The kingdom of heaven is like leaven which a woman took and his in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened."
It is a picture revealing a particular dynamic that occurs in the Kingdom of God: that a woman (the harlot, false religion) will insinuate into the three measures of meal (the church) leaven (hypocrisy) until eventually the whole church becomes leavened (hypocritical). "When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth?" Lu. 18:18
"That day of the Lord will not come until a great falling away comes first. and the son of perdition sits in the temple of God, the church, pretending to be God." 2 Thess. 2:3-4
"A little leaven leavens the whole lump." 1 Cor. 5:6; Gal. 5:9
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