What Changed?

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PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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So, I guess the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, as well, bore this magical fruit that opened the eyes of all eaters to behold both Good and Evil? :rolleyes:
No. IMHO the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was just some ordinary fruit tree that was declared out of bounds for Adam and Eve. Taking from it was distrust and rebellion towards God, and the practise of distrust and rebellion gave them their first experience of and understanding of good vs. evil. No magical fruit IMO.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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God said they were very good. You say God judged Adam and Eve's created state wrongly. You are judging and correcting God. Such hubris.
I say that a thrice Holy God could not and would not proclaim the naive or ignorant in such a way. You need to prove from scripture that ignorance and naivety are virtues. Give me one text of scripture whereby either of these evils are spoken of in praiseworthy manner. If you can't, I can prove they're not.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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I say that a thrice Holy God could not and would not proclaim the naive or ignorant in such a way. You need to prove from scripture that ignorance and naivety are virtues. Give me one text of scripture whereby either of these evils are spoken of in praiseworthy manner. If you can't, I can prove they're not.
Gen 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Gen 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
What you highlighted does not prove your premise that spiritual ignorance or naivete are virtues in the bible. Most of us know that man was created "very good" until Adam sinned. God did not eject Adam out of the Garden and curse the entire creation because He thought Adam was still "very good after he sinned. :rolleyes:
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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No. IMHO the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was just some ordinary fruit tree that was declared out of bounds for Adam and Eve. Taking from it was distrust and rebellion towards God, and the practise of distrust and rebellion gave them their first experience of and understanding of good vs. evil. No magical fruit IMO.
And so was the Tree of Life declared by God to be "out of bounds" to Adam when God drove his enemy out of the Garden!
 
Dec 20, 2023
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Repentance and baptism.
GEN 6:5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
It is clear that man comes into this world with a sinful nature and cannot please God until his heart has been circumcised. Therefore, the work of the Spirit and hearing/believing God's word is necessary before any repentance would ever be acceptable to God.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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GEN 6:5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
It is clear that man comes into this world with a sinful nature and cannot please God until his heart has been circumcised. Therefore, the work of the Spirit and hearing/believing God's word is necessary before any repentance would ever be acceptable to God.
Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him
with all your heart and with all your soul, and live
.
:)
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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What you highlighted does not prove your premise that spiritual ignorance or naivete are virtues in the bible. Most of us know that man was created "very good" until Adam sinned. God did not eject Adam out of the Garden and curse the entire creation because He thought Adam was still "very good after he sinned. :rolleyes:
It was not my premise that "spiritual ignorance or naivete are virtues in the bible". You made that up and attributed it to me.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
6,723
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They are born with evil inclinations (Gen 6:5).
My granddaughter had been insisting on my attention when I typed my response, and I now see that the word "were" was deleted when I entered my response referring to "the first two people,' who were "very good." Perhaps you were confused since I used the word "born" instead of "created."
Do you think Adam & Eve were created morally astute? Or does your reply apply to them?
 
Dec 18, 2021
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GEN 6:5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
It is clear that man comes into this world with a sinful nature and cannot please God until his heart has been circumcised. Therefore, the work of the Spirit and hearing/believing God's word is necessary before any repentance would ever be acceptable to God.
I think I am in agreement, although I would put repentance between hearing and believing, As repentance is the term used to describe a person who has been in a state of unbelief, and now through the help of God turned to a state of belief. and this belief is what gets him to call out to God to be saved (born again)
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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It was not my premise that "spiritual ignorance or naivete are virtues in the bible". You made that up and attributed it to me.
But you implied it. You said that even though A&E were created ignorant and naive, God declared them "very good". Therefore, if something is very good in God's eyes, then those two attributes that you assigned to A&E must be virtuous.
 

BillyBob

Active member
Dec 20, 2023
385
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43
Texas
I think I am in agreement, although I would put repentance between hearing and believing, As repentance is the term used to describe a person who has been in a state of unbelief, and now through the help of God turned to a state of belief. and this belief is what gets him to call out to God to be saved (born again)
You may be correct! With me, it happened so fast that I could not say for sure. All that I can say: is that my heart was changed and prepared to hear the message in a way that would not have been possible otherwise! :D
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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But you implied it. You said that even though A&E were created ignorant and naive, God declared them "very good". Therefore, if something is very good in God's eyes, then those two attributes that you assigned to A&E must be virtuous.
I didn't say Adam and Eve were created ignorant and naive. You did.

Since God says He created them "very good", and you claim they were created ignorant and naive, it is your burden to explain how ignorant and naive can be very good in God's eyes.
 
Dec 18, 2021
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You may be correct! With me, it happened so fast that I could not say for sure. All that I can say: is that my heart was changed and prepared to hear the message in a way that would not have been possible otherwise! :D
same happened to me, I prayed for week. then a deacon took me back and opened the word to me. And although I already knew what he was saying, it all became clear to me. and although I already repented. I was not sure what it mean, ot what to do.. I just prayed blindly for a month, out of fear.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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I didn't say Adam and Eve were created ignorant and naive. You did.

Since God says He created them "very good", and you claim they were created ignorant and naive, it is your burden to explain how ignorant and naive can be very good in God's eyes.
Now, you're lying. I never claimed that. I know that Adam was "very good" because he had the Spirit of Life living in him...until he sinned.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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I didn't say Adam and Eve were created ignorant and naive. You did.

Since God says He created them "very good", and you claim they were created ignorant and naive, it is your burden to explain how ignorant and naive can be very good in God's eyes.
My bad. I apologize for my error. Neither one of us made that claim!

I asked Mem in a recent post:

So, then with what kind of moral-spiritual nature is everyone born?

And he replied in 267, I believe:

Going by the example of the first two people, either a nature of extreme naivety in trusting others' assertions of morality or, if knowing better having been told better, willfully ignorance. And there's no way of judging who is who without power of discernment, as much as anyone might pretend to know.