Eastern Orthodoxy is not Talmud Pharisaism (Mishnaism).

[eternally-gratefull]

My My Scott. You should study the truth.

and not listen to men who tell you things. You might find out

what they tell you is wrong.

Dear eternallygratefull:

I might also find out what you tell me is wrong, correct?

But I am sure that the Orthodox are not wrong.

The Orthodox Church is what it says, and says what it is: Orthodox:

Right belief.

How do I know that what you tell me is not wrong? You are a man. If

I listen to you, I would be listening to a man. Your logic is faulty.

It is not listening to men that is wrong. It is listening to "traditions of

men". Some men, however, should be listened too, as they are in the

apostolic succession from Christ (the one true Church [EOC]), and they

teach the true apostolic traditions of Christ (2 Thess. 2:15). The

Church (1 Tim. 3:15), not the "traditions of men", is the "pillar and

ground of the Truth". God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Dear eternallygratefull:

As for your Greek citation, I am not a native speaker of Greek, so I

would call on Cleante from Greece to clarify this matter. He would

know better than either you, or me, or Liddell, what eis means in this

verse from Paul's epistle to Timothy. I am not impressed by people

who try to disprove the Apostolic Traditions of the One Church. They

prove the follow of their ways 38,000 and more times over. Some day,

Protestantism, may divided even further into 50,000 different

denominations. But for the grace of God, it could splinter and schism

(divide) into 100,000 different man-made denominations worldwide.

Or 200,000. There is theoretically nothing at all except the Holy Spirit

to prevent further Protestant heresies and chaos and schisms and sects

and religions of men and cults. Not all people listen to the Holy Spirit,

or know Him. Not all people learn "the way, the truth, and the life".

Not all people have received answers from the only One Who can give

right answers, the All-Holy Spirit of Christ Who proceedeth from the

Father (John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:13). God save us all and

bring us to a saving knowledge of the truth. Amen. In Erie PA USA

August 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington


The greek word used is εἷς, It is used twice. One God and One

mediator.

It says one mediator. Does it mean there can be only one mediator?

Dear eternallygratefull:

Or can it mean only one mediator, but many intercessors through the

one mediator? What is the use of intercessory prayer if St. James 5:16

is false. It does say we should pray for each other, and that is a form

of mediation for each other, intercession that is. ISTM, there is not

much difference between mediation and intercession. I don't know. I

could be wrong. Perhaps Cleante, our Greek Orthodox friend, can

explain this for us: Cleante, is there is a difference between a mediator

and an intercessor?

In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

ΕἿΣ, μίᾱ, ἕν; gen. ἑνός, μιᾶς, ἑνός:—Ep. lengthd. ἕεις:—Ep. fem. ἴᾰ,

gen. ἰῆς; dat. ἰῇ; a neut. dat. (ἰῷ κίον ἤματ&#953 also occurs in Il. (The

orig. form was prob.ἝΝΣ, cf. Lat. un-us. The fem. μία points to a

second Root, cf. οἶος with μόνος.)

1. one, Hom., etc.; εἷς οἶος, μία οἴη a single one, one alone, Id.;

εἷσμόνος Hdt.

Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon : Abridged from Liddell and Scott's Greek-

English lexicon (231). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems,

Inc.

1. Are you ever going to learn how to quote and post properly? I can't make heads or tails of whatever it is you were saying.

2. I gave you the greek defenition of the word. which proves it is used as "One"

So your going to argue with facts only because your church (men) say it is so??

 

[Strangelove]

Dear Strangelove!
You don't ask anyone to pray for you, and you don't pray for anyone?
Is James 5:16 in the Bible? Yes.
"Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." James 5:16 NKJV

Scotty.....where does it say we ask others for prayers?

God bless you, dear Mr. Strangelove! In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Are you saying Saint Paul is not alive with God? Neither are Saint Matthew, Saint Mark, Saint Luke, Saint John, Saint James, Saint Jude, Saint Peter?
So most of the people mentioned as Christians in the NT, are, according to Strangelove, not alive in heaven. How do you know that?
How do you know Basil is not alive with God?

I dont know what state Basil is in. Neither do you!

THATS THE POINT BABE!!

You could be talking to a DEAD MAN. Why are you risking this ABOMINATION on the strength of the words of a bunch of puffed up pharisaic dudes in hats?

 

[Scotth1960]

1. Are you ever going to learn how to quote and post properly? I can't make heads or tails of whatever it is you were saying.

2. I gave you the greek defenition of the word. which proves it is used as "One"

So your going to argue with facts only because your church (men) say it is so??

Dear EG, How do you know it's the facts? Is it so because you, or because Liddell says so?
Why do you trust Liddell? Is Liddell a native Greek-speaker? Was he born in Greece? Do not the Greeks know their own language better than non-Greeks?
Also, can something be true if it is not believed in the early Church? Can you find a passage from the early fathers of the church that says there can be no intercessors other than Christ? How do the church fathers interpret the "one mediator" passage in St. Paul?
Does the definition in Greek mean "one" or "one only"? Why do you assume that it means one only? Are there not other intercessors in the book of Revelation, the 24 elders? Of course, Christ is indeed the chief Mediator, the one mediator Who counts with the Father. All other intercessors are through, with, and in Him. He is the Sovereign LORD. It is His mediatorship that counts with God. That doesn't mean or exclude there are other people who pray to God through Christ. If there are not other people who pray, then James 5:16 makes no sense. And Christ commands people to pray, to intercede with God the Father, praying, "Our Father Who art in heaven ..." What do you say about that?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Scotth1960]

Scotty.....where does it say we ask others for prayers?


I dont know what state Basil is in. Neither do you!

THATS THE POINT BABE!!

You could be talking to a DEAD MAN. Why are you risking this ABOMINATION on the strength of the words of a bunch of puffed up pharisaic dudes in hats?

Dear SL,
Why do you keep talking about Basil, and ignore what I said about St. Andrew, St. Peter, St. Paul, St. John, St. Matthew? Your whole language is one of mockery and ad hominem. You fail greatly to use proper English, and to speak properly and correctly. You show the untruthfulness of your "arguments" because you merely label some things as "pharisaic" and don't offer any proof. I guess you think things are so because you say they are so. I go with the Bible. The Bible says the Church is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). And the facts are, the early Church was Greek-speaking. The facts are, the Latin Church fell into heresy with FILIOQUE. The facts are, the Greek Orthodox Church stood up for Christ in John 15:26. The controversy over John 15:26 proves the EOC is the True Church.
God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
PS Why are you afraid or hateful against men in hats with beards? Weird!
Why is everyone who disagrees with you a pharisee? I'm exaggerating with a point. It seems you act like all non-Strangelove partisans are pharisees. Or maybe you think that all Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics are Pharisees, while all or most Protestants are biblical Christians. You probably would say most Protestants are okay because they, most of them, only have 2 only sacraments, baptism and communion. But then, I can't speak for you, so you will have to say for yourself who you think the true Christians are.

 

[Scotth1960]

Strangelove, Where does it say that we don't ask others for prayers. And please stop using ad hominem childish words like "babe", and calling people men in hats who are pharisees.
Your words are without basis in fact, love, and truth. It's all predicated on prejudice. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Scotty.....where does it say we ask others for prayers?

I dont know what state Basil is in. Neither do you!

THATS THE POINT BABE!!

You could be talking to a DEAD MAN. Why are you risking this ABOMINATION on the strength of the words of a bunch of puffed up pharisaic dudes in hats?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dear EG, How do you know it's the facts? Is it so because you, or because Liddell says so?

It is fact because in many greek manuscripts which we have in our hands today (which were found by many wonderful documents which contain the greek word which could only be interpreted as one. It is not just him. MANY MANY people have found these same documents and all agree. So we just discard them?

Why do you trust Liddell? Is Liddell a native Greek-speaker? Was he born in Greece? Do not the Greeks know their own language better than non-Greeks?

The koine greek is not a used language today. anymore than "old english" is used. so who do we go to to understand old english? Experts in the language who have studied it, or our own personal interpretation? A modern greek speaker may or may not use the same slang as they used 2000 years ago. and would not be a good "expert" because he would try to interpret it the way he says it. not the way they did. Look at the english word tongue? How many people speak that way today? How do we interpret it? Like some churches do as a language of God? or as they did back when it was used. as language??

Also, can something be true if it is not believed in the early Church?

How can I know what they believed in the early church? the roman church admited they destroyed all documents and books written by anyone they considered a heretic. so how would I know if they did not destroy books and writings which showed the opposite of what you believe and shows what I believe.

Can you find a passage from the early fathers of the church that says there can be no intercessors other than Christ? How do the church fathers interpret the "one mediator" passage in St. Paul?

How would I know there were these things and they were destroyed? I can't know. thats why I don't follow men. I follow GOD.

Does the definition in Greek mean "one" or "one only"? Why do you assume that it means one only? Are there not other intercessors in the book of Revelation, the 24 elders? Of course, Christ is indeed the chief Mediator, the one mediator Who counts with the Father. All other intercessors are through, with, and in Him. He is the Sovereign LORD. It is His mediatorship that counts with God. That doesn't mean or exclude there are other people who pray to God through Christ. If there are not other people who pray, then James 5:16 makes no sense. And Christ commands people to pray, to intercede with God the Father, praying, "Our Father Who art in heaven ..." What do you say about that?
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

A mediator is one who HAS THE POWER to mediate a major difference between two parties. God has a debt out against us, It is called sin. Christ is the ONLY One capable of mediating between us and God when we sin. HE PAID THE PRICE. No man, alive or dead, can mediate between God and us pertaining to sin.

I can pray that God helps someone change. I can pray that God heals someone, or anything other than sin. Like the 24 elders did. But NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT OR POWER TO MEDIATE BETWEEN ME AND GOD CONCERNING MY SIN? Only Christ can.

A sinner, who needs a mediator him or herself, can not mediate on my behalf. Saying they can is like saying a person charged with murder and on trial himself can mediate between a judge and another murderer on trial. Aint gonna happen! The judge wont even listen to him!

 

[Grandpa]

Also, can something be true if it is not believed in the early Church? Can you find a passage from the early fathers of the church that says there can be no intercessors other than Christ? How do the church fathers interpret the "one mediator" passage in St. Paul?
Does the definition in Greek mean "one" or "one only"? Why do you assume that it means one only? Are there not other intercessors in the book of Revelation, the 24 elders? Of course, Christ is indeed the chief Mediator, the one mediator Who counts with the Father.

I can only think of one time in the bible where dead people are talked to. Saul used a witch to talk to Samuel when Samuel was dead. Saul and the witch- bad guys, alive, talking to dead guys. Samuel-good guy, dead.

If the early church believed they should talk to dead people then they were incorrect. Why would it be considered witchcraft and banned from the land in one instance but then ok in another? Do you think idolatry and witchcraft are ok if it is done by the early church fathers?? If you say yes along with your church fathers I suggest you get another "interpretation"...

 

[Scotth1960]

It is fact because in many greek manuscripts which we have in our hands today (which were found by many wonderful documents which contain the greek word which could only be interpreted as one. It is not just him. MANY MANY people have found these same documents and all agree. So we just discard them?
The koine greek is not a used language today. anymore than "old english" is used. so who do we go to to understand old english? Experts in the language who have studied it, or our own personal interpretation? A modern greek speaker may or may not use the same slang as they used 2000 years ago. and would not be a good "expert" because he would try to interpret it the way he says it. not the way they did. Look at the english word tongue? How many people speak that way today? How do we interpret it? Like some churches do as a language of God? or as they did back when it was used. as language??


How can I know what they believed in the early church? the roman church admited they destroyed all documents and books written by anyone they considered a heretic. so how would I know if they did not destroy books and writings which showed the opposite of what you believe and shows what I believe.

How would I know there were these things and they were destroyed? I can't know. thats why I don't follow men. I follow GOD.

A mediator is one who HAS THE POWER to mediate a major difference between two parties. God has a debt out against us, It is called sin. Christ is the ONLY One capable of mediating between us and God when we sin. HE PAID THE PRICE. No man, alive or dead, can mediate between God and us pertaining to sin.

I can pray that God helps someone change. I can pray that God heals someone, or anything other than sin. Like the 24 elders did. But NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT OR POWER TO MEDIATE BETWEEN ME AND GOD CONCERNING MY SIN? Only Christ can.

Dear EG,
That is true. I was saying that. Ultimately, only God can forgive sin. But God commands His Church to forgive sin too. And if we want to be forgiven, we must forgive. But God has the final word about who is forgiven. It seems He can base its, along with His shed blood, on how we forgive. God forgive us all. I forgive anyone who trespasses against me. I don't take things personally. I am only human true. So I have feelings, and I don't like it when people use ad hominem arguments against me or more important against the Church. It's just not right. God bless you. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington




A sinner, who needs a mediator him or herself, can not mediate on my behalf. Saying they can is like saying a person charged with murder and on trial himself can mediate between a judge and another murderer on trial. Aint gonna happen! The judge wont even listen to him!

 

[Katy-follower]

The men he condemned had ZERO WORKS> which proved they had ZERO FAITH. Yes. James said faith without works is dead.

Just to add to this....

When you have faith alone, you naturally bear the fruits. The fruits are not forced, they are natural.

When a born again Christian has the HS in their life they naturally start to behave differently, naturally showing the fruits in what they do. They don't force it, they don't do it to boast, they don't do it to earn their way into heaven, as they already have eternal life. They bear the fruits.


SO....

Faith without works would be considered strange, because the fruits would be there. If the fruits aren't there then is the person really saved?

A regular person who does good deeds every week because they think it is right does not earn their way into heaven.

It's the difference between forcing works and naturally doing works. Ultimately, the works come naturally afterwards.

Scott - Hope this makes sense.

 

[Scotth1960]

I can only think of one time in the bible where dead people are talked to. Saul used a witch to talk to Samuel when Samuel was dead. Saul and the witch- bad guys, alive, talking to dead guys. Samuel-good guy, dead.

If the early church believed they should talk to dead people then they were incorrect. Why would it be considered witchcraft and banned from the land in one instance but then ok in another? Do you think idolatry and witchcraft are ok if it is done by the early church fathers?? If you say yes along with your church fathers I suggest you get another "interpretation"...

Dear Grandpa,
How do you know the saints in heaven are really dead? Is not to be absent from the body are present with the Lord? The saints who have been saved are alive in their souls in heaven. Of course, none of us consult with the dead, we don't ask to receive messages from the saints or have them contact us and tell us things. We only pray they will pray for us. It's a one way conversation between us and God along with their presence in our prayers. That is not necromancy. It's called the communion of saints. The saints are all alive in God in heaven. God bless you. In Erie Scott R. Harrington
PS Idolatry and witchcraft and necromancy are not approved by the Church Fathers. Asking the saints in heaven to pray for us is not any of these things. It's Protestant iconoclastic bigotry and prejudice to think that it is so. Thinking it is so because you think it is so does not make it so!

 

[Strangelove]

Strangelove, Where does it say that we don't ask others for prayers.

I'm sure amandahya has a word for that kind of fallacious argument.

It says no talking to DEAD PEOPLE.

Scott....you didnt answer the question..
You could be talking to a DEAD MAN. Why are you risking this ABOMINATION on the strength of the words of a bunch of puffed up pharisaic dudes in hats?

 

[Katy-follower]

Idolatry? False accusation.

Come on, you can't let that one pass. This is definitely idolatry. Kissing a 'holy icon'. Not allowed. No excuses for it.

I'm not saying this to welcome argument, I'm just trying to get you to see what you're saying.

God's message was simple, but even the simplest things get misunderstood it seems

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dear Grandpa,
How do you know the saints in heaven are really dead? Is not to be absent from the body are present with the Lord? The saints who have been saved are alive in their souls in heaven. Of course, none of us consult with the dead, we don't ask to receive messages from the saints or have them contact us and tell us things. We only pray they will pray for us. It's a one way conversation between us and God along with their presence in our prayers. That is not necromancy. It's called the communion of saints. The saints are all alive in God in heaven. God bless you. In Erie Scott R. Harrington
PS Idolatry and witchcraft and necromancy are not approved by the Church Fathers. Asking the saints in heaven to pray for us is not any of these things. It's Protestant iconoclastic bigotry and prejudice to think that it is so. Thinking it is so because you think it is so does not make it so!

This is a sad sad excuse Scott. Are dead souls who are alive in heaven omnipresent? How can they hear you speak, then someone on the other side of the world? Last I checked only God is omnipresent, or even omniscient. Gabriel did not hear Daniel pray. God did. God sent Gabriel. And Gabriel was even stopped by demonic forces and prevented from Getting to Daniel in a short time. If an angel, who has a heavenly body, can not hear a prayer, or get to earth to deliver a message from God because of demonic forces. How do you expect a dead saint who has not yet been given his heavenly body to do what you say they do. It is impossible. Unless of course, they are God and omnipresent. which last I checked. God did not promise us this when we recieve our heavenly bodies. let alone before.

 

[Strangelove]

Dear Grandpa,
How do you know the saints in heaven are really dead? Is not to be absent from the body are present with the Lord? The saints who have been saved are alive in their souls in heaven. Of course, none of us consult with the dead, we don't ask to receive messages from the saints or have them contact us and tell us things. We only pray they will pray for us. It's a one way conversation between us and God along with their presence in our prayers. That is not necromancy. It's called the communion of saints. The saints are all alive in God in heaven. God bless you. In Erie Scott R. Harrington
PS Idolatry and witchcraft and necromancy are not approved by the Church Fathers. Asking the saints in heaven to pray for us is not any of these things. It's Protestant iconoclastic bigotry and prejudice to think that it is so. Thinking it is so because you think it is so does not make it so!

Question again to Scott...how do you know saint basil is really a saint?

Do you or any other man or institution have the godlike ability to look into a persons heart to know their faith?

 

[Grandpa]

Dear Grandpa,
How do you know the saints in heaven are really dead? Is not to be absent from the body are present with the Lord? The saints who have been saved are alive in their souls in heaven. Of course, none of us consult with the dead, we don't ask to receive messages from the saints or have them contact us and tell us things. We only pray they will pray for us. It's a one way conversation between us and God along with their presence in our prayers. That is not necromancy. It's called the communion of saints. The saints are all alive in God in heaven. God bless you. In Erie Scott R. Harrington
PS Idolatry and witchcraft and necromancy are not approved by the Church Fathers. Asking the saints in heaven to pray for us is not any of these things. It's Protestant iconoclastic bigotry and prejudice to think that it is so. Thinking it is so because you think it is so does not make it so!

Are you a saint Scott? That would put you on equal footing with your church fathers, wouldn't it? So now you can tell the next generation of christians what the bible really means and they have to follow it because you say so, right?

If you say no, you are not a saint, then how are you communing with dead saints and calling it the communion of saints? Wouldn't it be the communion of saints and guys trying to get dead people to talk to God for them?

Circular reasoning doesn't really help me because I think your church fathers may have missed a step or two...

 

[Katy-follower]

Strangelove, Judge not, lest you be judged. God bless you.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

God says numerous times in the bible to "correct, rebuke" and be bold to those who are sinning - correcting is definitely not judging.

Jesus and the apostles were very bold and rebuked and condemned evil. They even openly rebuked people in the church for doing evil, in order to strengthen the church.

2 Timothy 4:2: "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching"

Titus 1:13: This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith"[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Times New Roman, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]Titus 2:15: "Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you"[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Times New Roman, Arial][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Katy-follower]

The honoring of Icons was confirmed as a holy and rightful practice by the Second Council of Nicaea (787)

Shouldn't God be the one to confirm practices?

The Council of Nicaea is of man, not of God. Period.

 

[Katy-follower]

There is also archaeological evidence for this the earliest of which being a Marian fresco found in the Catacombs in Rome where the persecuted Christians under Nero worshiped.

But you are saying that God is a liar, since he says no to all of these religious things...

There is no doubt that many false prophets have risen and there were many idol worshiping religions, even back then.

Ultimately, the bible tells us what we need to know, man does not.

 

[Katy-follower]

You don't get it do you? We kneel in prayer not to the statue itself. Besides all the idols Mosaic priests would have encountered would have been of pagan gods so it would have been easy to spot. Comparing OT pagan idols to modern Christian statuary is comparing apples and oranges.

Santo - you're missing out!

When you have Christ in your life, you feel content and you have a personal relationship with him. It's an amazing feeling. I don't need anything. I don't need paintings or statues, or anything else. I'm content. You've got to give up your statues, pictures and icons, etc, as they just drive a wedge between you and God. They're honestly an ungodly distraction invented by Satan to keep man away from a real relationship with God. The distractions are sins as they go against God's word.


Here's a thought....

Imagine you are in a relationship with someone, but not directly - you go through someone else to communicate with that person and you sit by a photo of them. You don't get close that way and the person feels ignored. In fact, the person will probably dump you. In terms of God - he has set his words in the bible. He wants an "exclusive" relationship with you, where you have enough trust that you don't have to do all of these other things. They are all distractions.


Do you trust that God will catch you? If you do, then that means you will not be putting your trust in your church traditions. To leave all those non biblical traditions behind is saying to God: "I trust you and nothing else" "I won't let anything stand between you and me"

Or

Do you choose traditions of man over God? You can't have both. It's one or the other.

 

[SantoSubito]

Shouldn't God be the one to confirm practices?

The Council of Nicaea is of man, not of God. Period.

God did confirm them when he worked through His Councils to declare the Truth.

Santo - you're missing out!

When you have Christ in your life, you feel content and you have a personal relationship with him. It's an amazing feeling. I don't need anything. I don't need paintings or statues, or anything else. I'm content.

Do we need statuary and art? No, but they are helpful, worship engages all the senses as well as the spirit.

You've got to give up your statues, pictures and icons, etc, as they just drive a wedge between you and God. They're honestly an ungodly distraction invented by Satan to keep man away from a real relationship with God. The distractions are sins as they go against God's word.

For the life of me I can't think of a single situation where a statue or icon has prompted me to do anything but think of God and the wonders he has worked through his holy Saints, after all even the Temple had images.

Let me ask you a question, do you disagree with all uses of images in a church or do you object to the way we use them?