Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
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Nah. Many of us believe that the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" of him (per 2Th2:9a) starts way back at Daniel 11:36, where that text states, "And the king shall do according to his will" [i.e. regime-change language used elsewhere in Daniel, to refer to a new leader, in the text]... Compare the wording of the rest of that verse with what we also read about him in 2Th2 as well--same description.
(And Paul is ALSO covering the entire "7 year period" in that chapter, not merely the 3.5 yrs that many suppose he is only covering there, per v.4b!).
The MID-point of the "7 year period" only being begun to be spoken of in Daniel 12:1 (well after the 11:36 point in the chronology, which is its START--the START of the 7-yr period).
Other related passages ALSO show this same "beginning--middle--end" points of the 7-yr period (and re: him / the AC / man of sin / etc being the main character of that whole time period, so to speak...), meaning, the 7-yr period will not "be present" until/unless he also is present (in his role--I don't mean, like, existing at all... I'm pretty sure he'll start out his life as a baby just like everyone else, but I'm not speaking to that point in time... but the point in time being addressed in scripture, regarding this person... in his role, as such).
I think it's a mistake to think that just because Rev13:4b-5 mentions the "42 months," that this means he will only exist in his role for that amount of time (and starting there).
(And Paul is ALSO covering the entire "7 year period" in that chapter, not merely the 3.5 yrs that many suppose he is only covering there, per v.4b!).
The MID-point of the "7 year period" only being begun to be spoken of in Daniel 12:1 (well after the 11:36 point in the chronology, which is its START--the START of the 7-yr period).
Other related passages ALSO show this same "beginning--middle--end" points of the 7-yr period (and re: him / the AC / man of sin / etc being the main character of that whole time period, so to speak...), meaning, the 7-yr period will not "be present" until/unless he also is present (in his role--I don't mean, like, existing at all... I'm pretty sure he'll start out his life as a baby just like everyone else, but I'm not speaking to that point in time... but the point in time being addressed in scripture, regarding this person... in his role, as such).
I think it's a mistake to think that just because Rev13:4b-5 mentions the "42 months," that this means he will only exist in his role for that amount of time (and starting there).
^ EDIT to ADD:
I think it's a mistake to think that just because Rev13:4b-5 mentions the "42 months," that this means he will only exist in his role for that amount of time (and starting there). Nope, don't think so.
The emphasis there is on, "and POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM to..." (at that point in the chronology--not that he wasn't already existing on the earth in that role [AC / man of sin] in the FIRST HALF... which other passages show us is indeed the case)
I think it's a mistake to think that just because Rev13:4b-5 mentions the "42 months," that this means he will only exist in his role for that amount of time (and starting there). Nope, don't think so.
The emphasis there is on, "and POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM to..." (at that point in the chronology--not that he wasn't already existing on the earth in that role [AC / man of sin] in the FIRST HALF... which other passages show us is indeed the case)
When is the Church raised and removed to heaven?
If the tribulations believers are raised post tribulation, who are they reigning over with Christ? There is no-one left to populate the earth for the Millennium.
Who are the Tribulation believers? Are they "in Christ" and therefore part of the Church, or are the Jewish believers and part of Israel?
If the tribulations believers are raised post tribulation, who are they reigning over with Christ? There is no-one left to populate the earth for the Millennium.
Who are the Tribulation believers? Are they "in Christ" and therefore part of the Church, or are the Jewish believers and part of Israel?
Here is what you said.
You really don't know?
Is that why you ask?
Jesus once met someone like you...
“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
John 3:9-10
The religious always fail to grasp what the spiritual cherish and understand.
The Tribulation... (according to strait and narrow media)
Will be, seven years.
Did you say 'seven years'?
You really don't know?
Is that why you ask?
Jesus once met someone like you...
“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
John 3:9-10
The religious always fail to grasp what the spiritual cherish and understand.
The Tribulation... (according to strait and narrow media)
Will be, seven years.
Did you say 'seven years'?
Right. But they are not THE ONLY ONES who "reign" with Christ. (See Rev5:9-10 / 1:5-6 / 2:26-27).
The ones being spoken of in 20:4b (you are quoting) are simply the last ones to be *killed / martyred / beheaded* [in 2nd HALF of Trib] (and resurrected in time FOR the MK age);
The ones in 20:4a are "still-living" persons (who don't need to be "bodily resurrected"), and THESE correspond with the ones spoken of in Daniel 7:22b, "and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." (the underlined portion being parallel language to that of Rev20:4a).
This is NOT the case.
Whether you are speaking of OT saints OR "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23)... either way... neither of these is resurrected "POST-MILLENNIAL," as you suggest, here (or even, if you are suggesting others in this thread hold such a view... I've not seen anyone. So perhaps this IS *your* view...?)
I disagree that Scripture speaks of either of these as being resurrected "AFTER THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM".
I know that some folks want to suggest (incorrectly so) that the phrase "IN the LAST DAY" refers to "ON the last 24-hour day" [ever; b/f the NH&NE/eternity]... as though it is saying "the last [24-hr] day of the world," or such like. But it doesn't mean that.
Well, for one thing... both the OT saints AND the Trib saints who die in the Trib [7yrs], will be resurrected at the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (which is what Matt8:11 and its parallel speaks to, as well as Matt12:32's "the age [singular] to come").
The ones being spoken of in 20:4b (you are quoting) are simply the last ones to be *killed / martyred / beheaded* [in 2nd HALF of Trib] (and resurrected in time FOR the MK age);
The ones in 20:4a are "still-living" persons (who don't need to be "bodily resurrected"), and THESE correspond with the ones spoken of in Daniel 7:22b, "and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." (the underlined portion being parallel language to that of Rev20:4a).
This is NOT the case.
Whether you are speaking of OT saints OR "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23)... either way... neither of these is resurrected "POST-MILLENNIAL," as you suggest, here (or even, if you are suggesting others in this thread hold such a view... I've not seen anyone. So perhaps this IS *your* view...?)
I disagree that Scripture speaks of either of these as being resurrected "AFTER THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM".
I know that some folks want to suggest (incorrectly so) that the phrase "IN the LAST DAY" refers to "ON the last 24-hour day" [ever; b/f the NH&NE/eternity]... as though it is saying "the last [24-hr] day of the world," or such like. But it doesn't mean that.
Well, for one thing... both the OT saints AND the Trib saints who die in the Trib [7yrs], will be resurrected at the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19), FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age (which is what Matt8:11 and its parallel speaks to, as well as Matt12:32's "the age [singular] to come").
The Tribulation believers are those that underwent the Great Tribulation.
They are raised at the end of the Great Tribulation. This is the first resurrection.
They only join with Jesus for a thousand year reign on earth.
I think the text explains what happens after the thousand year reign of Jesus.
Revelation 20:7-9
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come
out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather
them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came
up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city,
and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
After that Satan is thrown into the lake of fire.
Then we have the second resurrection.
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened;
and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things
which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
So the nations of the earth are still there all the way through.
Are the Tribulation saints Jew or Gentile believers?
The text does not specify probably a mixture of Gentile and Jew.
They are raised at the end of the Great Tribulation. This is the first resurrection.
They only join with Jesus for a thousand year reign on earth.
I think the text explains what happens after the thousand year reign of Jesus.
Revelation 20:7-9
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come
out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather
them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came
up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city,
and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
After that Satan is thrown into the lake of fire.
Then we have the second resurrection.
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened;
and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things
which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
So the nations of the earth are still there all the way through.
Are the Tribulation saints Jew or Gentile believers?
The text does not specify probably a mixture of Gentile and Jew.
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There are two resurrections in the text (Revelation chapter 20)
The first resurrection of tribulation saints is below.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the First Resurrection...
The first resurrection that you can see above precedes the millennial reign of Jesus.
The second resurrection is for those who have died previous to the Tribulation.
Revelation 20:13-14
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead
who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death,
the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life,
he was thrown into the lake of fire.
We can clearly see the two resurrections in Revelation 20.
The distinction is between the millennial reign and Christs reign for eternity on the new earth.
The first resurrection of tribulation saints is below.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the First Resurrection...
The first resurrection that you can see above precedes the millennial reign of Jesus.
The second resurrection is for those who have died previous to the Tribulation.
Revelation 20:13-14
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead
who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death,
the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life,
he was thrown into the lake of fire.
We can clearly see the two resurrections in Revelation 20.
The distinction is between the millennial reign and Christs reign for eternity on the new earth.
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If the text states the antichrist reigns over all for 3.5 years, then that is what the text states.
The book of Revelation never mentions a seven year period of time.
You have sourced the seven year time span from an interpretation of the book of Daniel.
Does the book of Daniel mention a seven year tribulation?
It does not mention a seven year tribulation.
The book of Revelation never mentions a seven year period of time.
You have sourced the seven year time span from an interpretation of the book of Daniel.
Does the book of Daniel mention a seven year tribulation?
It does not mention a seven year tribulation.
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I know I've stated this before, but I'll say it again here:
[a few brief points, coz I don't have a lot of time for typing right now]
--Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 = "[TO SHEW unto..] ...things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not "soon [adverb]");
--"the beginning of birth PANGS" = "the SEALS [1-5 at least]"... and Lk21:12 states that the 70ad events (in vv.12-24a,b) must take place "BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth pangs that vv.8-11 just listed (this is the "SEQUENCE" issues in the Olivet Discourse that many miss); this AGREES with the SEQUENCE also between Matt22:7 [70ad events] and 22:8 ["THEN SAITH HE to his servants..." AFTER the 70ad events... i.e. in the 95ad writing of Rev... 1:1 / 7:3 (the "144,000 servants of our God"--these have not yet existed on the earth, in their role shown in Rev);
--when viewing the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (that 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 is speaking of), noting that THAT time-period is SHOWN to BEGIN at 4:1 [and 6:2 upon the earth, unfolding] (and END at His Second Coming to the earth Rev19), one can PRECISELY TRACE OUT exactly "2520 days" AS ON A "CALENDAR" (specific calendar-date to specific calendar-date to specific calendar-date... and yes, ON A CALENDAR);
...for one small example, Rev8:1-5 is describing what takes place ON ONLY ONE SPECIFIC CALENDAR-DATE... and in that "future," specific, LIMITED time-period (what we call "the Trib"), the 144,000 "SERVANTS of our God" (of one nation: Israel) will be among the first to "UNDERSTAND" these very things (they will have come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... so I'm not saying these are UNSAVED [/unbelieving] of Israel).
Once one sees it, one cannot UNSEE it (meaning, the ENTIRE "7 year period" MAPPED OUT on the CALENDAR, in Revelation!... Not just this one "example" I supplied.)
It just so happens to AGREE with Dan9:27:a,b,c[,26b]... "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"; but ALSO with the "beginning... middle... end" (in the same way) as all OTHER passages covering this Subject.
[a few brief points, coz I don't have a lot of time for typing right now]
--Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 = "[TO SHEW unto..] ...things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not "soon [adverb]");
--"the beginning of birth PANGS" = "the SEALS [1-5 at least]"... and Lk21:12 states that the 70ad events (in vv.12-24a,b) must take place "BEFORE ALL THESE" beginning of birth pangs that vv.8-11 just listed (this is the "SEQUENCE" issues in the Olivet Discourse that many miss); this AGREES with the SEQUENCE also between Matt22:7 [70ad events] and 22:8 ["THEN SAITH HE to his servants..." AFTER the 70ad events... i.e. in the 95ad writing of Rev... 1:1 / 7:3 (the "144,000 servants of our God"--these have not yet existed on the earth, in their role shown in Rev);
--when viewing the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (that 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 is speaking of), noting that THAT time-period is SHOWN to BEGIN at 4:1 [and 6:2 upon the earth, unfolding] (and END at His Second Coming to the earth Rev19), one can PRECISELY TRACE OUT exactly "2520 days" AS ON A "CALENDAR" (specific calendar-date to specific calendar-date to specific calendar-date... and yes, ON A CALENDAR);
...for one small example, Rev8:1-5 is describing what takes place ON ONLY ONE SPECIFIC CALENDAR-DATE... and in that "future," specific, LIMITED time-period (what we call "the Trib"), the 144,000 "SERVANTS of our God" (of one nation: Israel) will be among the first to "UNDERSTAND" these very things (they will have come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture"... so I'm not saying these are UNSAVED [/unbelieving] of Israel).
Once one sees it, one cannot UNSEE it (meaning, the ENTIRE "7 year period" MAPPED OUT on the CALENDAR, in Revelation!... Not just this one "example" I supplied.)
It just so happens to AGREE with Dan9:27:a,b,c[,26b]... "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]"; but ALSO with the "beginning... middle... end" (in the same way) as all OTHER passages covering this Subject.
... and let me just say (about this part ^ ), the "years" will be factored in the SAME WAY that the previous "69 Weeks" were factored... which is ALSO how the "70 years captivity" (referred to earlier in that same chapter) was factored (based on when each king ruled in relation to the other, etc...), which wasn't OUR kind of "70 years [of 365.25 days, or whatever]," no.
[and no, I'm not saying anything like (as some suggest) the rotation of the globe changing pace... NO!
NOT saying THAT! Just like there wasn't such a "change" when the first "69 Weeks" were factored that way, lol]
[and no, I'm not saying anything like (as some suggest) the rotation of the globe changing pace... NO!
NOT saying THAT! Just like there wasn't such a "change" when the first "69 Weeks" were factored that way, lol]
well, I did, I was saved as a child, and remained so until I was early-12. then my life... I destroyed it. and I gave up on God. for 2-3 years, and then I got saved, and it feels so different. and if you say "see? you feel different, I'm calling you a mormon, we don't need the ''burning in the bosom' to know truth. not to be rude, but that is how it lies.
The phrase "the REST of the dead" (per this context) refers to:
--"and the REMNANT [same Grk word] were *slain*" - 19:21 (i.e. they are UNSAVED / unbelievers--they will NOT be ENTERING the MK age upon His RETURN to the earth Rev19);
--... and this ALSO includes (who the "fowls" are told to "eat the flesh of") what v.18 had just said about "[eat...] AND the flesh of ALL men, free and bond, and small and great." (SAME as Lk17:27,29's wording of: "and destroyed THEM-ALL [G537]"--same time-slot... These will NOT be ENTERING the MK age, because they are NOT SAVED / NOT BELIEVERS). They will be among these "DEAD" which Rev20:5a is speaking SPECIFICALLY about, here (i.e. "the DEAD [/unsaved]").
This verse (20:5a) is NOT speaking about "the rest of the CHRISTIAN dead [i.e. BELIEVERS]"... No!
It's talking about the "REST / REMNANT" who are "SLAIN" [/'destroyed'] at the point in the chronology (b/c they are UNBELIEVING and WILL NOT be permitted ENTRANCE into the MK age).
"the DEAD [/unsaved]".
ALL "saints [/believers]" (who'd DIED prior to that point) will have been "resurrected" PRIOR TO the MK age, and ALL will be present FOR IT / to ENJOY it!
(I'm not saying "all" will necessarily be required to RESIDE there on the earth. [The "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" is NOT "the [invited] GUESTS [PLURAL]"... though both ARE SAVED PERSONS! ]; SOME saints [who came to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] will STILL BE ALIVE at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, and SO will ENTER the MK age IN THEIR MORTAL BODIES)
--"and the REMNANT [same Grk word] were *slain*" - 19:21 (i.e. they are UNSAVED / unbelievers--they will NOT be ENTERING the MK age upon His RETURN to the earth Rev19);
--... and this ALSO includes (who the "fowls" are told to "eat the flesh of") what v.18 had just said about "[eat...] AND the flesh of ALL men, free and bond, and small and great." (SAME as Lk17:27,29's wording of: "and destroyed THEM-ALL [G537]"--same time-slot... These will NOT be ENTERING the MK age, because they are NOT SAVED / NOT BELIEVERS). They will be among these "DEAD" which Rev20:5a is speaking SPECIFICALLY about, here (i.e. "the DEAD [/unsaved]").
This verse (20:5a) is NOT speaking about "the rest of the CHRISTIAN dead [i.e. BELIEVERS]"... No!
It's talking about the "REST / REMNANT" who are "SLAIN" [/'destroyed'] at the point in the chronology (b/c they are UNBELIEVING and WILL NOT be permitted ENTRANCE into the MK age).
"the DEAD [/unsaved]".
ALL "saints [/believers]" (who'd DIED prior to that point) will have been "resurrected" PRIOR TO the MK age, and ALL will be present FOR IT / to ENJOY it!
(I'm not saying "all" will necessarily be required to RESIDE there on the earth. [The "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" is NOT "the [invited] GUESTS [PLURAL]"... though both ARE SAVED PERSONS!
]; SOME saints [who came to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] will STILL BE ALIVE at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, and SO will ENTER the MK age IN THEIR MORTAL BODIES)
It was indeed a choir. Each voice was a real sound sample that the synthesizer emulated, playing each individual voice, or combinations of voices from each key played. Everything in that sound track is a real instrument or real voice, including electronic violins that more artists are now playing on stage.
MM
MM
The rest of the dead live not again until the 1000 years are over.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is for the saved.
The second is for the unsaved. All will be raised.
Joh 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The first resurrection is for the saved.
The second is for the unsaved. All will be raised.
Joh 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
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I'm not sure where you ever got the idea that the One true God ever gives up on those who are truly saved, but that's not the God of the Bible. I say that on this basis:
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
See that? We? The "we" in that statement is believers, and though one fall into unbelief, yet will the Lord remain, abide faithful BECAUSE He cannot deny Himself. Why? Because once one is a part of HIS body, He is not in the business of cutting off a part of Himself.
You see, it's about faithfulness in the midst of faithlessness. This is the basis for that:
Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
That's the power of salvation...it has an effect that some out there don't like. Some hate to think that they are no longer their own once in Christ because they are then no longer "free moral agents." They are those who prefer a god who is under THEIR control. They want to define a god who acts and reacts in all manner as they see fit.
So, when the TRUE transformation takes place, God always shows His faithfulness, even in the midst of our faithlessness. Does that make sense? So you could NOT have become UNborn again, and UNsealed from Holy Spirit. None of our emotions prove anything in the realm of the eternals.
MM
2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
See that? We? The "we" in that statement is believers, and though one fall into unbelief, yet will the Lord remain, abide faithful BECAUSE He cannot deny Himself. Why? Because once one is a part of HIS body, He is not in the business of cutting off a part of Himself.
You see, it's about faithfulness in the midst of faithlessness. This is the basis for that:
Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
That's the power of salvation...it has an effect that some out there don't like. Some hate to think that they are no longer their own once in Christ because they are then no longer "free moral agents." They are those who prefer a god who is under THEIR control. They want to define a god who acts and reacts in all manner as they see fit.
So, when the TRUE transformation takes place, God always shows His faithfulness, even in the midst of our faithlessness. Does that make sense? So you could NOT have become UNborn again, and UNsealed from Holy Spirit. None of our emotions prove anything in the realm of the eternals.
MM
Dude, the first resurrection is for all the OT saints and the tribulation saints, not the Church. The second resurrection is for all the unsaved dead to be brought before the Great White Throne for final judgement. How you arrived at some of your conclusions I have no idea.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Nobody will be on the earth in the Millennium? Really? You still have not shown that to us.
MM
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Nobody will be on the earth in the Millennium? Really? You still have not shown that to us.
MM