Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Inquisitor]

You wouldn't be Catholic by any chance would you?

Not saying that is a bad thing but it would explain some of your thinking.

Inquisitors are contracted to conduct an Inquisition.

Inquisitors have no favorites of course and will work for any church.

The text (Rev 20) tells you the timeline of the end times.

 

[Inquisitor]

He is only here to confuse things and prevent those who want to gain truth from doing so...

Don't quote scripture here.

How does discussing a text on eschatology prevent others from obtaining the truth?

Revelation 20:4
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because
of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark
on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

You certainly have a problem with the verses above.

 

[Inquisitor]

Then who are the nations in Rev.19 that Jesus is pouring out His indignation on? The following is just prior to the beginning of the Millennium. Do you think Jesus is doing all this (Rev.19:11-21) from heaven?

Revelation 19:19
And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against

I do not deny the martyred trib saints will be raised at the Second Coming as part of the First Resurrection.

Chapter nineteen is the overview of the end times.

Chapter twenty is the finer detail and the timing within that overview.

The tribulation saints are important to the Lord and they reign with Christ
for a thousand years. Do you have a problem with that?

 

[Inquisitor]

He's suggesting the [faulty] idea of a "general resurrection" (except for the 3.5-yr [second half of Trib] beheaded martyrs ALONE); at which time "judgment OF ALL" takes place at the GWTj.



Supposedly that "believers"/saints (of all times--EXCEPT the final 3.5 yrs) WILL BE SUSCEPTIBLE TO "the second death / lake of fire" based on their works...

... and prolly after THAT, they get to spend eternity climbing up and down some ladder of "payment" for their sins... or faults... and eventually be "released" (the "length of time" depending on the level of their "works"). Not the first time I've heard such an explanation.

The GWTJ is after the end of the millennium.

The book of life is opened and if your name is written in there, then you go upstairs.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

No works no salvation.

Paul states you were created for good works.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
so that we would walk in them.

How could anyone claim to be a Christian without some level of good works?

 

[Genez]

Satan is restrained for a thousand years and then released.

The timing of Satan's release is at the end of the millennium.

Revelation 20:7-8
When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out
to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog...

You can not lock onto a thought.
You only lock onto a word that catches your attention... and then go any way which may, as you may.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? ​

And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the ​

proper time.​

​

For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now restrains will ​

continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. (taken away by the Rapture)​

2 Thessalonians 2:5-7

 

[sawdust]

Chapter nineteen is the overview of the end times.

Chapter twenty is the finer detail and the timing within that overview.

The tribulation saints are important to the Lord and they reign with Christ
for a thousand years. Do you have a problem with that?

I don't have a problem with the tribulation saints reigning with Christ. I have a problem with Christ establishing His rule on earth without actually coming to earth.

 

[sawdust]

The GWTJ is after the end of the millennium.

The book of life is opened and if your name is written in there, then you go upstairs.

Revelation 20:15
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

No works no salvation.

Paul states you were created for good works.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand
so that we would walk in them.

How could anyone claim to be a Christian without some level of good works?

Christians stand before the judgement seat of Christ not the Great White Throne and we go to be with the Lord upon death. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

 

[Musicmaster]

I don't have a problem with the tribulation saints reigning with Christ. I have a problem with Christ establishing His rule on earth without actually coming to earth.

What you're saying is confusing, because we are given the very image of Christ standing on that mountain immediately beside the ancient city of Jerusalem:

Revelation 14:1-4
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Those out there whom I've run across at other times, and who habitually spiritualize scripture into making it say what they want, they claim the Lamb is standing on the Zion in Heaven. The problem with that transplanting the imagery into Heaven is that John saw the Lamb on that mountain on earth because he then shifts focus into Heaven, from where the voice comes. The language gives ample indication that the placement of the two are not one and the same. There's Mt Zion, and then there's the voice from another place.

The 144,000 will minister on this earth, not in Heaven. What would be the purpose of that, I have often asked?

We also have Zecheriah 14:4, with Christ standing on the Mount of Olives, which is right there next to the ancient city of Jerusalem. That's not speaking of the time of His earthly ministry.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Zechariah 14:1-4
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

None of that has happened yet. but will in the near future.

MM

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

sawdust said:
I don't have a problem with the tribulation saints reigning with Christ. I have a problem with Christ establishing His rule on earth without actually coming to earth.

What you're saying is confusing, because we are given the very image of Christ standing on that mountain immediately beside the ancient city of Jerusalem:

"sawdust" isn't saying that he himself holds such a view.

"sawdust" is perceiving that "Inquisitor" does hold such a view, and is addressing that matter with him, in that post you've quoted of his.

 

[Musicmaster]

"sawdust" isn't saying that he himself holds such a view.

"sawdust" is perceiving that "Inquisitor" does hold such a view, and is addressing that matter with him, in that post you've quoted of his.

Yeah, I should have stipulated that I was speaking generally.

MM

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yeah, I should have stipulated that I was speaking generally.

Okay, got ya.



Another problem with "Inquisitor's" view, is the following verse (and passage) about the "5th Seal" martyrs (those "killed" in the FIRST half of the trib, just as Matt24:9 speaks of ['kill']... because the "Seals" ARE "the beginning of birth PANGS").

Rev6:11 says (of the 5th Seal martyrs) - "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."



...which verse "Inquisitor" would have to change (to correspond with his view), to say instead:

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled, and oh yeah, [AND rest yet] ALSO for a thousand years additional to that also, clear till the GWTj time-slot."


NOT! lol

 

[Musicmaster]

Okay, got ya.



Another problem with "Inquisitor's" view, is the following verse (and passage) about the "5th Seal" martyrs (those "killed" in the FIRST half of the trib, just as Matt24:9 speaks of ['kill']... because the "Seals" ARE "the beginning of birth PANGS").

Rev6:11 says (of the 5th Seal martyrs) - "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."



...which verse "Inquisitor" would have to change (to correspond with his view), to say instead:

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled, and oh yeah, [AND rest yet] ALSO for a thousand years additional to that also, clear till the GWTj time-slot."


NOT! lol

Also, observe that they have no crowns on their heads (speaking of the tribulation saints in Ch. 7), but have only palm branches in their hands. There is no reward for those who wait until AFTER the rapture to THEN seek out the Lord, having to persevere unto the end of their lives.

Good stuff in scripture.

MM

 

[sawdust]

What you're saying is confusing, because we are given the very image of Christ standing on that mountain immediately beside the ancient city of Jerusalem:

Revelation 14:1-4
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Those out there whom I've run across at other times, and who habitually spiritualize scripture into making it say what they want, they claim the Lamb is standing on the Zion in Heaven. The problem with that transplanting the imagery into Heaven is that John saw the Lamb on that mountain on earth because he then shifts focus into Heaven, from where the voice comes. The language gives ample indication that the placement of the two are not one and the same. There's Mt Zion, and then there's the voice from another place.

The 144,000 will minister on this earth, not in Heaven. What would be the purpose of that, I have often asked?

We also have Zecheriah 14:4, with Christ standing on the Mount of Olives, which is right there next to the ancient city of Jerusalem. That's not speaking of the time of His earthly ministry.

MM

I agree with what you say, The poster I was responding to believes the Second Coming is at the end of the Millennium which, I find strange as (imo) the Millennium is Christ ruling on Earth from Jerusalem.

I find it difficult how anyone can envisage the Millenium as anything other than Christ on earth except as you say, they spiritualize the passages so it's so heavenly minded, it's no earthly good.

 

[sawdust]

"sawdust" isn't saying that he himself holds such a view.

"sawdust" is perceiving that "Inquisitor" does hold such a view, and is addressing that matter with him, in that post you've quoted of his.

A minor correction if I may.

"sawdust isn't saying she, herself holds such a view"

Normally I don't worry about the correction but I felt it necessary in this thread.

 

[Inquisitor]

I don't have a problem with the tribulation saints reigning with Christ. I have a problem with Christ establishing His rule on earth without actually coming to earth.

So when do you think that Jesus returns?

When Jesus returns that is the time of the new earth.

You can not lock onto a thought.
You only lock onto a word that catches your attention... and then go any way which may, as you may.

Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? ​

And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the ​

proper time.​

​

For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now restrains will ​

continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. (taken away by the Rapture)​

2 Thessalonians 2:5-7

That's a Post-Tribulation return, the man of lawlessness is revealed and destroyed.

Then we are raptured with the dead in Christ.

Yet, we still have the millennial reign of Christ to follow.

So we are in heaven but the unbelievers will inhabit the earth, for another thousand years.

So is Jesus in heaven or does He reign on earth with some unknown camp of saints?

 

[Genez]

That's a Post-Tribulation return, the man of lawlessness is revealed and destroyed.

Then we are raptured with the dead in Christ.

Yet, we still have the millennial reign of Christ to follow.

So we are in heaven but the unbelievers will inhabit the earth, for another thousand years.

So is Jesus in heaven or does He reign on earth with some unknown camp of saints?

Must I join you in your confusion?

Is it mandatory?

What if I refuse to?

 

[sawdust]

So when do you think that Jesus returns?

When Jesus returns that is the time of the new earth.

As I understand it, the next prophetic event is Christ appears in the heavens where His Church meets Him in the air and He removes them to where He is (Resurrection of the Church saints). Then the anti-christ is revealed when he sets up a treaty with Israel which begins the 7year tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation, Christ returns (Second Coming), removing all unbelievers from the earth leaving only believers to enter the Millennium along with resurrecting the tribulation martyrs (and possibly OT Israel believers as well). Then Christ reigns on Earth from Jerusalem, providing perfect world conditions for 1,000 years dealing swiftly with any and all rebellion and/or crime (not that there will be much). During this time Satan is bound but released at the end of the Millennium. He then gathers those who, even though having lived in perfect world conditions are still not happy with the Lord, (showing us clearly evil begins within not from outward circumstances) and the war of Armageddon follows which is put down very swiftly and then comes the end with Satan being thrown into the Lake of Fire, the General resurrection and then this universe is destroyed and the everlasting universe is created.

That's a rough overview as I understand things when you put all the passages together.

I believe Isaiah saw the new earth on this earth (ie.Millennium earth) as it will be one of great peace and prosperity. I don't think he saw the eternal earth as I think how it is made will be different from how this one was made. The new eternal earth will have an in built "everlasting quality" (for lack of a better term) imo.

 

[sawdust]

That's a Post-Tribulation return, the man of lawlessness is revealed and destroyed.

How can that be a return when Paul is saying the Restrainer will be removed?

 

[sawdust]

@Inquisitor

A minor correction to my post of post #378. The war at the end of the Millennium is the "Gog/Magog revolution" not Armageddon as that war takes place at the end of the Tribulation and is when Christ returns and destroys His enemies.