Gods will vs mans free will
- Thread starter jacko
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
2 Corinthians 4:4 plus, I wonder how when someone is blind to something, which, let's face it, means they cannot see it at all, or comprehend it, and finds the message connected to it foolishness, and is hostile in their minds toward the One True God behind it all, and loves evil, and suppresses truth, and cannot come to God on his own, being a slave of sin and unable to submit to God's law... I wonder how these people who push "free will" think such a person suddenly decides to throw over their very human nature and choose something he cannot even receive... some say without any help from God at all.
Let's really think about this statement, deeply. The Muslim who was born into a generation of Muslims who lives in Saudi Arabia, how does that person come to Christ on his own w/o the spirit opening his heart.
Let's flip the script, is there anything they can say for You to profess Allah is the name of the living God? I don't think so. Therefore, I think only through our lord God and through his grace can the seed take root.
That is exactly right and aligns with what Scripture teaches on the matter:
No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
But that is not what some here say, or believe. They think the natural
man can choose to believe these things with no help from God at all.
And worse! They make God out to be a tyrant if and when He acts unilaterally in
a person's life, claiming He is kidnapping people against their will, and also say
God is unfair if He reveals Himself in one way to one person and does not do the
exact same thing for everybody else. Obviously these people have either not read
the Bible, or have not comprehended with any degree of intelligence what it is they read.
No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
But that is not what some here say, or believe. They think the natural
man can choose to believe these things with no help from God at all.
And worse! They make God out to be a tyrant if and when He acts unilaterally in
a person's life, claiming He is kidnapping people against their will, and also say
God is unfair if He reveals Himself in one way to one person and does not do the
exact same thing for everybody else. Obviously these people have either not read
the Bible, or have not comprehended with any degree of intelligence what it is they read.
Unfallen Adam chose to sin (albeit with extenuating circumstances), Eve was deceived and "fell to her death" while unfallen.
And then BOTH of them CHOSE of their own free will to confess their sin before God and receive His gift of salvation.
So goes the unbiblical theories of the hyper-Calvinists right down the drain.
Furthermore, all who follow them are saved in precisely the same way. Confession, repentance and consequently receiving their salvation and acquittal from God.
Oh and BTW.......who was it in Genesis 3 that DID NOT confess their sin? And still won't? Like just refusing no no no.
Who was it that Eve pointed to as blameworthy during the trial? What was Gods judgement on this entity?
And then BOTH of them CHOSE of their own free will to confess their sin before God and receive His gift of salvation.
So goes the unbiblical theories of the hyper-Calvinists right down the drain.
Furthermore, all who follow them are saved in precisely the same way. Confession, repentance and consequently receiving their salvation and acquittal from God.
Oh and BTW.......who was it in Genesis 3 that DID NOT confess their sin? And still won't? Like just refusing no no no.
Who was it that Eve pointed to as blameworthy during the trial? What was Gods judgement on this entity?
It makes sense because even without a biblical basis for it. Like if you believe something is true for generations and generations, you are NOT going to be change your mind on something as integral to your being as God.
For the Muslims are as passionate and some even MORE fanatical about their false profit Mohamed and Allah.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
No, they do not, but...
Rom 2: 10-16:
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. Rom 2: 26-29:
Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
-
1
- Show all
No, they do not, but...
Rom 2: 10-16:
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 2: 26-29:
Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 2: 10-16:
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.Rom 2: 26-29:
Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Hmm...It didn't work like that when God rescued the ancient Israelites from Egypt. In fact, after Moses confronted Pharaoh for the fist time, and Pharaoh responded by turning up the heat on his slaves, the Jews wanted nothing to do with being rescued. BUT...as you probably know, God that unjust tyrant"forced" the rescue mission on them anyhow.
Salvation is not about man making a choice; but rather God making a choice to redeem a people for himself thereby making good on his promise to Abraham. God does not elect to save any sinner on the basis of any merit in the sinner (e.g. his good choice); but rather for his own sake, purpose and glory he saves his chosen people.
Salvation is not about man making a choice; but rather God making a choice to redeem a people for himself thereby making good on his promise to Abraham. God does not elect to save any sinner on the basis of any merit in the sinner (e.g. his good choice); but rather for his own sake, purpose and glory he saves his chosen people.
-
1
- Show all
So God judges men according to the gospel, which not everyone has heard. That is what I suspected.
In Gen 3:15:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
We see that Adam and Eve received a promise from the Lord that led them to forgiveness and life by the faith that was probably given to them when they believed the word of the lord.
Abraham too received the gospel as seen in Gal 3:6-11, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Faith is what outshines the keeping of the law, whereby even those of old, who were given a limited revelation, could cleave to that word of the Lord, finding forgiveness and obedience to the Lord's Spirit unto salvation.
-
1
- Show all
That's great. Perhaps those who disagree, you know, those who say such things as it is unfair of God to reveal Himself one way to one person and not do the exact same thing for everyone else, or, God is a rapist and a scheming tyrant and kidnapping people against their will to act unilaterally, which obviously God does act unilaterally, and does treat different people differently... honestly I am not sure where such people get off judging God such ways, for it really seems to border on blasphemy to me yet these people, who claim to be Christians, have made and or agreed with such statements repeatedly. It seems they really do think that being saved by God makes saved people victims of a hoax.
Count yourself fortunate if you have not had to deal with any of that level of hatred for believing God is good and gracious to save.
Count yourself fortunate if you have not had to deal with any of that level of hatred for believing God is good and gracious to save.
Perhaps they did not, but they did exercise their free will when they refused to heed Joshua and Caleb and listened to the other ten spies sent into the promised land. When they had a golden calf made and worshiped it. When they refused to look at the serpent that Moses put upon his staff, or when they tried to gather more than a days worth of manna, or when they stuffed themselves with quail meat; even as they beheld the Lord's miracles wrought through Moses.
Paul tells us of how Pharaoh's heart was hardened by the Lord and Paul responds to this very question, by showing how the Lord bare with much long suffering regarding Pharaoh's sins, withholding judgement in order to show his power and declare his name to the world's nations of that time. (See Rom 9: 17-23)
Paul tells us of how Pharaoh's heart was hardened by the Lord and Paul responds to this very question, by showing how the Lord bare with much long suffering regarding Pharaoh's sins, withholding judgement in order to show his power and declare his name to the world's nations of that time. (See Rom 9: 17-23)
-
1
- Show all
Jesus rescued you. Jesus saved you.
Jesus chose you before the foundation of the world.
You were like the rest of the lost. We all were. Dead in our sin, until He quickened us.
You describe that quickening as the Holy Spirit opening your eyes to the Truth of the Gospel.
I’m fine with that description, as long as you fully understand YOU did NOTHING to save yourself. It wasn’t your choice that saved you.
It was Jesus that saved you. Please do not take away from His Glory.
Jesus chose you before the foundation of the world.
You were like the rest of the lost. We all were. Dead in our sin, until He quickened us.
You describe that quickening as the Holy Spirit opening your eyes to the Truth of the Gospel.
I’m fine with that description, as long as you fully understand YOU did NOTHING to save yourself. It wasn’t your choice that saved you.
It was Jesus that saved you. Please do not take away from His Glory.
-
1
- Show all
I love the Exodus story and much of what leads up to it... Jacob and Rachel and Leah and his twelve sons... how the Hebrew people ended up in Egypt, all about Joseph etc. And in reading through the ten plagues, we do see that Pharaoh hardened his own heart multiple times before God hardened it. In fact you could say that God simply hardened it further. It is God who opens and closes people's hearts, though. “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” People do it to themselves, also, but make no mistake about it, nobody is born with a heart turned to God. There are none righteous, all have turned away. To hear some speak? Yikes. Such Scriptural truths do not apply to them. They kick and scream against what the Bible says of the natural man. And they hate those that tell the truth about such matters.
That's hard for me to hear from you, whom I look up to and who has always been a beacon of light for God's grace and love here at Christian chat. I suspect I missed some of what has been going on and for that I'm truly sorry! The Lord continue to hold you close to his heart, living and walking in you while sharing his wisdom, which has been obvious to many of us who've had the honor of your comments and insights. PTL! in Jesus' name, our God and King, both now and forever!
-
1
- Show all
You have got to be kidding. Not only did they have the free will to walk away, they had the free will to want to go back. Yes, God took it upon Himself to make sure that they couldn't. But that hardly affects the fact of their free will.
Free will reigns supreme in God's creation order. It is sacrosanct.
Satan's lie is that is free will does not exist, therefore true life does not exist. Therefore God is a cosmic tyrant and evil. Therefore God cannot and does not judge sin. Therefore there is no resurrection. Therefore the Gods free will offer of salvation is bogus, God is peddling a fraud and God is a deceiver.
This is by no means an exhaustive list of Satan's lies that he is "merchandising".
I hope you see where this is going as it relates to your horrifically malevolent theories.
Free will reigns supreme in God's creation order. It is sacrosanct.
Satan's lie is that is free will does not exist, therefore true life does not exist. Therefore God is a cosmic tyrant and evil. Therefore God cannot and does not judge sin. Therefore there is no resurrection. Therefore the Gods free will offer of salvation is bogus, God is peddling a fraud and God is a deceiver.
This is by no means an exhaustive list of Satan's lies that he is "merchandising".
I hope you see where this is going as it relates to your horrifically malevolent theories.
-
1
- Show all