The Coming Tribulation: Many Brethren Are Ignorant About It

[DavyP]

It's surprising how many of my Christian brethren follow a bunch of men of what the future "great tribulation" will be about instead of actually understanding about it per God's written Word.

There is so much sensationalism just dreamed up about it, that it almost reminds me of how some of God's people also love to celebrate things like Halloween with imagining evil spirits, devils, ghosts, etc., dressing up their homes and front yard with such representations, like some sporting gala.

Men's doctrine of a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory is especially responsible for much of this speculative sensationalism about the coming "great tribulation", as it is used as a scare tactic to aid the deceived into accepting their false pre-trib rapture idea, which is nowhere written in God's Word. As a matter of fact, Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 revealed that His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation, not prior to it. Even what Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church reveals it happens on the last day of this world when the future resurrection will happen.

One of the earliest pop pre-trib rapture propaganda was the 1970 book, The Late Great Planet Earth, by pre-trib author Hal Lindsay. A movie was even done in 1978 based on the book, and narrated by Hollywood actor Orson Welles.

Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins wrote the Left Behind book series starting in 1995, which continued to 2007 for a total of 13 books. Movies were made taken from the book series.

All that work by those pre-trib rapture authors sounds fantastic, and very successful, doesn't? Others on that pre-trib rapture doctrine have tried to have similar success with their books and films, but Lindsay and LaHaye's books top them all in popularity and success, generating millions of dollars!

The problem with that is, their stories are mostly fiction, and not truly Bible based.

There is no pre-tribulational rapture idea written in God's Word. Like I stated before, Lord Jesus Christ showed us that His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation (per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

Even at the end of Luke 17 about the first ones 'taken', Jesus' disciples asked Him "Where, Lord?" about where those 'taken' would be taken to, and Jesus showed those are taken to where the fowls eat on a dead carcase. That's not those who remain faithful waiting on Jesus to come that are actually left-behind. The first ones 'taken' per Jesus are those who will be deceived, taken in deception to wheresoever the fowls are. (see Luke 17:37 and compare with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:28). Authors like Tim LaHaye and Hal LIndsay simply failed to read that Luke 17 Scripture closely. They instead just followed a group of religious men who represent a false interpretation of the event of Jesus' future coming and gathering of His Church.

Yet the whole Tim LaHaye series of 13 books is based on the false idea that Christ's servants will be 'taken', and not left-behind.

It's great sensationalism, and sells good, but it is based on a fictional account of Christ's future coming. Just as with Jesus' Messages in the Book of Revelation to the seven Churches in Asia, only two of those seven Churches actually kept Jesus' Word, and He thus had no rebuke for those two Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia. But five out of the seven Churches Jesus rebuked because of what was going on within them (see Revelation 2 & 3).

 

[Aussie52]

Utter nonsense!

 

[GaryA]

The saints will be 'gathered' but not 'taken'...???

 

[DavyP]

Open up your Bibles to Matthew 24...

I'm going to cover this line upon line what Jesus said below about the future "great tribulation":

Matt 24:5-31
5 For many shall come in My name, saying, "I am Christ"; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

The above events are not... during the "great tribulation" timing. They happen prior to the "great tribulation", and Jesus calls the above events "the beginning of sorrows".

Many false ones have already come throughout history claiming to be Christ, even in my generation that has been going on. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_claimed_to_be_Jesus)

The above "beginning of sorrows" is what the pre-trib rapture school mainly relies upon for how the coming "great tribulation" will be. But those events are not about the actual time of "great tribulation", but instead a time just prior called the "beginning of sorrows".

Lord Jesus reinforced that idea of the "beginning of sorrows" time prior to the tribulation by that phrase "but the end is not yet". That "end" is about the time of "great tribulation." In that He says as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, then the "end" (trib time) is not yet. Now think just a little bit about that; if the "end" is not a time of war, then what kind of time will it be? What's the opposite of a time of war? It's a time of peace.

In 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul showed that when the deceived say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them, like a woman in travail at birth. That "sudden destruction" means the very last day of this present world, when Jesus returns and ends this present world by God's consuming fire (2 Peter 3:10; 1 Cor.15:53-54). By that Apostle Paul showed the 'end' will be a time of world peace, when the deceived will be saying that, "Peace and safety".

This means the coming "great tribulation" is going to be a time of world peace, NOT all out WWIII and chaos like the pre-trib rapture authors and preachers instead teach. Hal Lindsay and Time LaHaye in their books show those "beginning of sorrows" ideas of nation against nation, war, pestilences, earthquakes, and just absolute world chaos, as being what the "great tribulation" time is about.

But as I have said before, they failed to study God's Word closely enough, because God's Word shows the "great tribulation" will be a time when all wars have stopped, which means world peace. It won't be the real peace that Lord Jesus will manifest when He returns, but it will be a mimic of Jesus' true peace on earth.


9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

That above is during the "beginning of sorrows" timing also. The actual "great tribulation" has not yet started at this point, but is getting ready to. The Mark 13 version gives a more detailed picture of some of Christ's servants being delivered up to Satan's host in order to give a Testimony from The Holy Spirit against them.


15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

That above event, the placing of the IDOL abomination inside a new Jewish temple built in Jerusalem for the 'end', and the false-Messiah demanding that we all bow in worship to it, and/or to him, is what will actually kick off the time of "great tribulation".

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

In the Luke 21 version of this timing, Jesus even warns brethren in the countries to not enter into Jerusalem when that above "abomination of desolation" IDOL is placed in a temple in Jerusalem for false worship. Those ideas to not come down from the housetop, nor return home from the field, is to show that Jesus' coming to gather us is going to be real soon after these events.


19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

That warning is about "Blessed are the barren..." metaphor which Jesus used in Luke 23:26-31 about those of us who remain a spiritual "chaste virgin" waiting for our True Husband Jesus Christ at His coming, like Apostle Paul showed in 2 Corinthians 11. The Luke 21:23 version of that "with child" metaphor shows there will be great 'wrath' upon those, pointing to God's cup of wrath on the final day when Jesus returns (7th Vial of Revelation 16).

(Continued...)

 

[DavyP]

(Continued...)


20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Pray our flight won't be in winter?
Again, that's actually about a metaphor regarding the fig parable. Per the first part of the 6th Seal, Satan and his host coming to our world for the great tribulation is linked to the idea of the winter fig. A winter fig in real fig horticulture, grows during the winter and then falls off in the spring. Recall that the spiritual harvest time when Jesus comes to gather His Church He showed metaphorically will be summer (end of summer actually). If you are gathered early, to the false-Christ who comes first, you will be like the early winter fig, among the "untimely figs" of Revelation 6...

Rev 6:12-13
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV


Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That above reveals the placing of the "abomination of desolation" IDOL in Jerusalem is what will set off the time of "great tribulation". And it will begin a time of world peace on earth for the deceived who buy into it. In Daniel 8:23-25 about the "king of fierce countenance" will destroy many using false peace, and craft will prosper by his hand. He will be a savior to you if you only bow to him and worship him and take his mark. Even as per Revelation 11, once God's two witnesses spiritually torment the deceived and wicked during the tribulation, the deceived will rejoice over the death of those two witnesses. The nations will even send gifts to each other it says. That reveals the majority of the world will be deceived during the "great tribulation" by that false "Peace and safety" which Paul mentioned. Those of us who remain in Christ are not to be part of those deceived, but be patient waiting for Jesus Christ to come.


23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

During that time, the "great tribulation", we are to not be deceived like those who will claim Jesus has returned, saying those things in red. The KJV translators put "false Christs" in the plural about that, but Lord Jesus shows in the above that He was pointing to a single false-Messiah. Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance actually rendered that "false Christs" instead as 'a spurious Messiah' (NT:5580).


Matt 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

In contrast to the false-Messiah who comes first, when Lord Jesus Christ comes it will be easily seen, like many can see lightening across a wide span of the sky. In Revelation 1 Jesus showed every eye will see His coming in the clouds. We won't have to hear about it from someone else.

Verse 28 above is another version of Jesus' answer of Luke 17:37 when His disciples asked where the first ones taken would be taken to. In the Luke version it uses the Greek word for 'body', but here in Matthew 24:28, the Greek word for a literal dead 'carcase' is used. Are those in Christ to be like a dead "carcase" taken wheresoever the fowls are gathered together? No, of course not. Thus we in Christ are NOT to be the first ones 'taken'! The pre-trib rapture school has it BACKWARDS!


29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

If you read the above closely, it aligns perfectly with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the timing of Christ's future coming to gather His Church. In this Matt.24 version, Jesus is pointing to the gathering of the 'asleep' saints He will bring with Him from Heaven (per 1 Thess.4:13-16).

In the Mark 13:24-27 version of the above, Jesus points to His gathering of the saints still alive on earth being "caught up" to Him and the asleep saints on that day AFTER... the tribulation.

So the actual Bible Scripture about those events are not difficult at all. It's just about who we decide we are going to listen to. I choose to believe Lord Jesus Christ in His Word per the above Scripture evidence.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But as I have said before, they failed to study God's Word closely enough, because God's Word shows the "great tribulation" will be a time when all wars have stopped, which means world peace. It won't be the real peace that Lord Jesus will manifest when He returns, but it will be a mimic of Jesus' true peace on earth.

The "great tribulation" is only the second HALF of the 7-yr period.


The following passages pertain to the second half: Rev13:5-7 / Dan7:21,25... and those passages state, "And it was given unto him TO MAKE WAR with the saints, and TO OVERCOME them" / "the same horn MADE WAR AGAINST the saints, and PREVAILED AGAINST them"...




... so I wouldn't say "ALL WARS have stopped," at this point in the chronology, as you say.


[many saints will be being "beheaded" during that second half--Rev20:4b; Rev14:9-19,15:2]





EVERYTHING from Matt24:4 onward, is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture".

Yes, there have been "many" who have come in His name, saying... ; But this is the point in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5, He is pointing out / warning about "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100; 'a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]"... corresponding with SEAL #1 at the START OF the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1] time-period we commonly call "the Tribulation Period" (NOT "the GREAT tribulation," which is only THE SECOND HALF, not its STARTING POINT).

Jesus isn't covering the Subject of "our Rapture" ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse.

[Matt24:29-31 = Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (i.e. Rom11:27 / Dan9:24 parts... re: ISRAEL)]







[and just to note: we don't derive our doctrine from the "Left Behind" series, and so forth ]

 

[Kroogz]

The "great tribulation" is only the second HALF of the 7-yr period.


The following passages pertain to the second half: Rev13:5-7 / Dan7:21,25... and those passages state, "And it was given unto him TO MAKE WAR with the saints, and TO OVERCOME them" / "the same horn MADE WAR AGAINST the saints, and PREVAILED AGAINST them"...




... so I wouldn't say "ALL WARS have stopped," at this point in the chronology, as you say.


[many saints will be being "beheaded" during that second half--Rev20:4b; Rev14:9-19,15:2]



EVERYTHING from Matt24:4 onward, is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture".

Yes, there have been "many" who have come in His name, saying... ; But this is the point in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5, He is pointing out / warning about "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100; 'a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]"... corresponding with SEAL #1 at the START OF the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1] time-period we commonly call "the Tribulation Period" (NOT "the GREAT tribulation," which is only THE SECOND HALF, not its STARTING POINT).

Jesus isn't covering the Subject of "our Rapture" ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse.







[and just to note: we don't derive our doctrine from the "Left Behind" series, and so forth ]

I was just praying you would show up in this thread.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The KJV translators put "false Christs" in the plural about that, but Lord Jesus shows in the above that He was pointing to a single false-Messiah. Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance actually rendered that "false Christs" instead as 'a spurious Messiah' (NT:5580).

I would venture to say that "Dr James Strong" was not saying that the word in this verse SHOULD BE IN THE SINGULAR (where ALL translations and the Greek shows it to be PLURAL).
He was simply saying what the basic word means.


Unless you can show some sort of "commentary" of his, showing otherwise (in agreement with your argument), I believe he is just supplying a definition of the basic Greek word (NOT whether the word IN ITS USE IN THAT CONTEXT, or any context, is / should be SINGULAR or PLURAL).




[I looked it up in my various hard copies of "Strong's Concordance"]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here's the word used in verse 24:

false Christs,
ψευδόχριστοι [PLURAL]
pseudochristoi [PLURAL]
G5580

-- https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/24/24/ss1/t_concif_953024


[all of my hard copy interlinears show the SAME]




Notice the "N-NPM" (at LINK under this word) where the "P" means "PLURAL".







Mr Strong is not suggesting that this word IN THIS VERSE should be "SINGULAR" (contrary to the Greek and ALL translations)... he is simply providing definition of the basic Greek word.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I was just praying you would show up in this thread.

Appreciate your kind sentiments, Kroogz.

= D

 

[awelight]

It's surprising how many of my Christian brethren follow a bunch of men of what the future "great tribulation" will be about instead of actually understanding about it per God's written Word.

There is so much sensationalism just dreamed up about it, that it almost reminds me of how some of God's people also love to celebrate things like Halloween with imagining evil spirits, devils, ghosts, etc., dressing up their homes and front yard with such representations, like some sporting gala.

Men's doctrine of a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory is especially responsible for much of this speculative sensationalism about the coming "great tribulation", as it is used as a scare tactic to aid the deceived into accepting their false pre-trib rapture idea, which is nowhere written in God's Word. As a matter of fact, Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 revealed that His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation, not prior to it. Even what Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church reveals it happens on the last day of this world when the future resurrection will happen.

One of the earliest pop pre-trib rapture propaganda was the 1970 book, The Late Great Planet Earth, by pre-trib author Hal Lindsay. A movie was even done in 1978 based on the book, and narrated by Hollywood actor Orson Welles.

Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins wrote the Left Behind book series starting in 1995, which continued to 2007 for a total of 13 books. Movies were made taken from the book series.

All that work by those pre-trib rapture authors sounds fantastic, and very successful, doesn't? Others on that pre-trib rapture doctrine have tried to have similar success with their books and films, but Lindsay and LaHaye's books top them all in popularity and success, generating millions of dollars!

The problem with that is, their stories are mostly fiction, and not truly Bible based.

There is no pre-tribulational rapture idea written in God's Word. Like I stated before, Lord Jesus Christ showed us that His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation (per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

Even at the end of Luke 17 about the first ones 'taken', Jesus' disciples asked Him "Where, Lord?" about where those 'taken' would be taken to, and Jesus showed those are taken to where the fowls eat on a dead carcase. That's not those who remain faithful waiting on Jesus to come that are actually left-behind. The first ones 'taken' per Jesus are those who will be deceived, taken in deception to wheresoever the fowls are. (see Luke 17:37 and compare with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:28). Authors like Tim LaHaye and Hal LIndsay simply failed to read that Luke 17 Scripture closely. They instead just followed a group of religious men who represent a false interpretation of the event of Jesus' future coming and gathering of His Church.

Yet the whole Tim LaHaye series of 13 books is based on the false idea that Christ's servants will be 'taken', and not left-behind.

It's great sensationalism, and sells good, but it is based on a fictional account of Christ's future coming. Just as with Jesus' Messages in the Book of Revelation to the seven Churches in Asia, only two of those seven Churches actually kept Jesus' Word, and He thus had no rebuke for those two Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia. But five out of the seven Churches Jesus rebuked because of what was going on within them (see Revelation 2 & 3).

I would definitely have to disagree with you here. The Bible does teach a Pre-Trib Rapture or "snatching away". However, I would agree with you when it comes down to the books that were written by the likes of: Hal Lindsay, Tim LaHaye, Jerry Jenkins and others. These individuals and their books were more fiction than Bible. They demonstrated no true spiritual insight into the subject.

 

[JohnRH]

It's surprising how many of my Christian brethren follow a bunch of men of what the future "great tribulation" will be about instead of actually understanding about it per God's written Word.

There is so much sensationalism just dreamed up about it, that it almost reminds me of how some of God's people also love to celebrate things like Halloween with imagining evil spirits, devils, ghosts, etc., dressing up their homes and front yard with such representations, like some sporting gala.

Men's doctrine of a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory is especially responsible for much of this speculative sensationalism about the coming "great tribulation", as it is used as a scare tactic to aid the deceived into accepting their false pre-trib rapture idea, which is nowhere written in God's Word. As a matter of fact, Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 revealed that His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation, not prior to it. Even what Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church reveals it happens on the last day of this world when the future resurrection will happen.

One of the earliest pop pre-trib rapture propaganda was the 1970 book, The Late Great Planet Earth, by pre-trib author Hal Lindsay. A movie was even done in 1978 based on the book, and narrated by Hollywood actor Orson Welles.

Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins wrote the Left Behind book series starting in 1995, which continued to 2007 for a total of 13 books. Movies were made taken from the book series.

All that work by those pre-trib rapture authors sounds fantastic, and very successful, doesn't? Others on that pre-trib rapture doctrine have tried to have similar success with their books and films, but Lindsay and LaHaye's books top them all in popularity and success, generating millions of dollars!

The problem with that is, their stories are mostly fiction, and not truly Bible based.

There is no pre-tribulational rapture idea written in God's Word. Like I stated before, Lord Jesus Christ showed us that His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation (per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

Even at the end of Luke 17 about the first ones 'taken', Jesus' disciples asked Him "Where, Lord?" about where those 'taken' would be taken to, and Jesus showed those are taken to where the fowls eat on a dead carcase. That's not those who remain faithful waiting on Jesus to come that are actually left-behind. The first ones 'taken' per Jesus are those who will be deceived, taken in deception to wheresoever the fowls are. (see Luke 17:37 and compare with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:28). Authors like Tim LaHaye and Hal LIndsay simply failed to read that Luke 17 Scripture closely. They instead just followed a group of religious men who represent a false interpretation of the event of Jesus' future coming and gathering of His Church.

Yet the whole Tim LaHaye series of 13 books is based on the false idea that Christ's servants will be 'taken', and not left-behind.

It's great sensationalism, and sells good, but it is based on a fictional account of Christ's future coming. Just as with Jesus' Messages in the Book of Revelation to the seven Churches in Asia, only two of those seven Churches actually kept Jesus' Word, and He thus had no rebuke for those two Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia. But five out of the seven Churches Jesus rebuked because of what was going on within them (see Revelation 2 & 3).

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:17 (KJV)
Paul, the apostle, predated Hal & Tim.

 

[PennEd]

It's surprising how many of my Christian brethren follow a bunch of men of what the future "great tribulation" will be about instead of actually understanding about it per God's written Word.

There is so much sensationalism just dreamed up about it, that it almost reminds me of how some of God's people also love to celebrate things like Halloween with imagining evil spirits, devils, ghosts, etc., dressing up their homes and front yard with such representations, like some sporting gala.

Men's doctrine of a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory is especially responsible for much of this speculative sensationalism about the coming "great tribulation", as it is used as a scare tactic to aid the deceived into accepting their false pre-trib rapture idea, which is nowhere written in God's Word. As a matter of fact, Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 revealed that His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation, not prior to it. Even what Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church reveals it happens on the last day of this world when the future resurrection will happen.

One of the earliest pop pre-trib rapture propaganda was the 1970 book, The Late Great Planet Earth, by pre-trib author Hal Lindsay. A movie was even done in 1978 based on the book, and narrated by Hollywood actor Orson Welles.

Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins wrote the Left Behind book series starting in 1995, which continued to 2007 for a total of 13 books. Movies were made taken from the book series.

All that work by those pre-trib rapture authors sounds fantastic, and very successful, doesn't? Others on that pre-trib rapture doctrine have tried to have similar success with their books and films, but Lindsay and LaHaye's books top them all in popularity and success, generating millions of dollars!

The problem with that is, their stories are mostly fiction, and not truly Bible based.

There is no pre-tribulational rapture idea written in God's Word. Like I stated before, Lord Jesus Christ showed us that His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation (per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

Even at the end of Luke 17 about the first ones 'taken', Jesus' disciples asked Him "Where, Lord?" about where those 'taken' would be taken to, and Jesus showed those are taken to where the fowls eat on a dead carcase. That's not those who remain faithful waiting on Jesus to come that are actually left-behind. The first ones 'taken' per Jesus are those who will be deceived, taken in deception to wheresoever the fowls are. (see Luke 17:37 and compare with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:28). Authors like Tim LaHaye and Hal LIndsay simply failed to read that Luke 17 Scripture closely. They instead just followed a group of religious men who represent a false interpretation of the event of Jesus' future coming and gathering of His Church.

Yet the whole Tim LaHaye series of 13 books is based on the false idea that Christ's servants will be 'taken', and not left-behind.

It's great sensationalism, and sells good, but it is based on a fictional account of Christ's future coming. Just as with Jesus' Messages in the Book of Revelation to the seven Churches in Asia, only two of those seven Churches actually kept Jesus' Word, and He thus had no rebuke for those two Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia. But five out of the seven Churches Jesus rebuked because of what was going on within them (see Revelation 2 & 3).

These threads are like a Hydra.
Although these graphs could probably use a tweak here and there, they do a good, quick job of Biblically differentiating between the Rapture and Jesus' Second Coming:

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

pre-trib non-biblical theory?
Hardly! Because of the Biblical:

Great Grace Departure!​

Part 1:



Amen! and, Also Part 2...

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Great Grace Departure!​

Part 2:



And AMEN!! Praise The LORD!!!

 

[DavyP]

I would definitely have to disagree with you here. The Bible does teach a Pre-Trib Rapture or "snatching away".

Well, no, The Bible does not... teach a pre-tribulational rapture. My proof is what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. You should read it sometime instead of just regurgitating what men's doctrines say.

 

[DavyP]

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:17 (KJV)
Paul, the apostle, predated Hal & Tim.

Yes, and that future event happens after the tribulation, like Jesus showed in the Mark 13:24-27 version of His Olivet discourse. Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 covered the same gathering events that Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13.

The Matt.24 example is about Jesus' gathering of the 'asleep' saints and bringing them with Him when He comes, per 1 Thess.4:13-16. But the Mark 13 version is about Jesus gathering the saints still alive on earth when He comes, their being "caught up" to Him on that same day, which is about 1 Thess.4:17. That may sound technical, but it's actually a very simple parallel about Jesus' coming to gather His Church after the tribulation.

 

[DavyP]

These threads are like a Hydra.
Although these graphs could probably use a tweak here and there, they do a good, quick job of Biblically differentiating between the Rapture and Jesus' Second Coming:

That list is NOT accurate, and I think we've been over this before.

The second coming is the SAME event of Jesus future coming in the clouds to gather His Church.

If one is speaking of a car painted white on the outside, but is described with having a black interior, we don't treat that to mean we are speaking about two different cars just because it is described two ways, for that's ludicrous.

Likewise with Bible descriptors like Jesus' "coming" vs. His coming "the second time"; those are both the same... event.

Like Jesus showed in Mark 13:24-27, He sends His angels to gather the saints still alive on earth, and that is AFTER... the great tribulation as written there:

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

It doesn't take much brain matter to grasp that Jesus showed in the above that He is 'gathering' the saints after that tribulation, NOT simply 'bringing' them with Him like your false list says.

An actual reading of the simplicity of the Bible Scriptures will always reveal when someone is trying to toy with the written Scripture, like your list tries to do.

 

[PennEd]

That list is NOT accurate, and I think we've been over this before.

The second coming is the SAME event of Jesus future coming in the clouds to gather His Church.

If one is speaking of a car painted white on the outside, but is described with having a black interior, we don't treat that to mean we are speaking about two different cars just because it is described two ways, for that's ludicrous.

Likewise with Bible descriptors like Jesus' "coming" vs. His coming "the second time"; those are both the same... event.

Like Jesus showed in Mark 13:24-27, He sends His angels to gather the saints still alive on earth, and that is AFTER... the great tribulation as written there:

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

It doesn't take much brain matter to grasp that Jesus showed in the above that He is 'gathering' the saints after that tribulation, NOT simply 'bringing' them with Him like your false list says.

An actual reading of the simplicity of the Bible Scriptures will always reveal when someone is trying to toy with the written Scripture, like your list tries to do.

No you’re wrong.

Please refer to my previous post.

 

[DavyP]

The "great tribulation" is only the second HALF of the 7-yr period.

Yes, the time of "great tribulation" is about the latter half of the Daniel 9:27 symbolic "one week" of 7 years of two separate 1260 day periods. None of that changes what I showed in my posts. As a matter of fact, my reference to God's two witnesses in Rev.11 points to that latter 1260 day half when the "great tribulation" will be. However, in Matt.24 Jesus said He shorted the time. Do you know what He shortened the future tribulation to?? It is written by the way.

The following passages pertain to the second half: Rev13:5-7 / Dan7:21,25... and those passages state, "And it was given unto him TO MAKE WAR with the saints, and TO OVERCOME them" / "the same horn MADE WAR AGAINST the saints, and PREVAILED AGAINST them"...

That TYPE of war against the saints will be SPIRITUAL, not the military type wars Jesus was referring to with "wars and rumors of wars". How do we know the spiritual war will not be a literal military war against the saints? Easy, for we were shown that within those very Revelation 13 verses you referenced, but obviously missed...

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

That idea of "who is able to make war with him?", meaning with the beast, that is about how he will have power over all world's militaries. That is only about the subject of literal military war though, not spiritual war against the saints. It is pointing to the beast having one-world control, a one-world government system, an actual one-world kingdom in the case of the coming false-Messiah.

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

That war against the saints is about a 'spiritual' war, not a military war, so did you miss that, "and to overcome them" phrase? Yes, you did. That means the beast will have power over us physically for that 42 month trib, but NOT power over us spiritually.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV

... so I wouldn't say "ALL WARS have stopped," at this point in the chronology, as you say.

[many saints will be being "beheaded" during that second half--Rev20:4b; Rev14:9-19,15:2]

Once again, your error of thinking is not realizing the beast's war against the saints will be a 'spiritual' war, not a military war. Read the Rev.13:15 verse again, as it's about a sentence of death for those who refuse to bow to the "image of the beast". That's a religious execution, not a military war death.

EVERYTHING from Matt24:4 onward, is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture".

That is a blatantly false... statement above.

Even within the 6th Vial timing of Rev.16:15, Lord Jesus is still warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", and for us to keep our garments (of white), lest we appear spiritually naked in shame. Do you not recall how Jesus used that "as a thief" idea linked with the day of His coming to gather His Church, per His Olivet discourse? You should, because the pre-trib rapture preachers use it all the time. However, both Apostles Paul and Peter showed that "as a thief" idea is a reference to the LAST DAY of this world when the "sudden destruction" will come upon the wicked, and God's "consuming fire" will burn man's works off this earth (per 1 Thess.5 and 2 Peter 3:10). Thus Lord Jesus linked the day of His future coming "as a thief" for His Church on the LAST DAY of this world, NOT prior to the "great tribulation". And like Paul said in 1 Thess.5, that day is not to take those of us in Christ by surprise.

[and just to note: we don't derive our doctrine from the "Left Behind" series, and so forth ]

Tim LaHaye did... derive his Left-Behind series of books FROM what the Pre-trib Rapture school teaches, so let's not try and hide that.