Gods will vs mans free will

[cv5]

Adam and Eve were no longer "very good" after they fell.

They were fallen creatures, just like us. And in need of salvation. There is only ONE way to be saved.Not one for Adam and Eve and another for us.

Acts 16:31

@Rufus said:
"There is nothing ever positive said about Adam in the bible."

There is little hope for anyone who believes this. The outlook is extremely grim.

The FACT is that there is NO PERSON IN THE BIBLE that is a more remarkable and poignant type of Christ.
And this is why:

==============================================================================================
"Adam sweat great drops of blood in the garden agonizing over his deliberate (NOT DECEIVED per 1 Tim 2:14) FREE WILL choice to be SEPARATED (aka ***die***) from his God in a calculated gambit to SAVE his bride the Woman.

Which of course is why Adam is a type of Christ."

================================================================================================
"Adam did not keel over when he ate the fruit. But he did willingly decide to DIE aka SEPARATE from his God to save the woman.

The first Adam in the first garden sweat great drops of blood (in effect) agonizing over his FREE WILL decision to DIE (give up his life of sweet loving harmony and perfect fellowship with his God, becoming a sinner) to take responsibility for the sin of his bride in order to save his bride.

The last Adam in the olive garden sweat great drops of blood agonizing over his FREE WILL decision to DIE (give up his life of sweet loving harmony and perfect fellowship with his God, becoming sin for us) to take responsibility for the sin of His Bride in order to save His Bride."

 

[cv5]

No, just pointing out the FACT that Mary considered the whole dialoge. Very carefully by the way. and she FREELY chose to obey.

Absolutely correct.

Yet, the hardboiled Calvinists demand a God who neither asks for nor needs permission.
In fact it is a PILLAR of their doctrine.

 

[Kroogz]

Absolutely correct.

Yet, the hardboiled Calvinists demand a God who neither asks for nor needs permission.
In fact it is a PILLAR of their doctrine.

To the point common sense even gets tossed out the window.

 

[cv5]

No, just pointing out the FACT that Mary considered the whole dialog.Very carefully by the way. and she FREELY chose to obey.

BTW, the only reason Mary gave permission is because it was required and necessary.
Granting it makes it clear that it was needed by the angel before proceeding.

 

[cv5]

To the point common sense even gets tossed out the window.

Its much more than that. The Holy God never forces anyone to enter a covenant against their will.
Why? Because Satan will be there to accuse God of unrighteousness.

Fully informed consent was REQUIRED (and provided) before the children of Israel entered into the Marriage Covenant on Sinai.

And the same precedent is in place for Christians. The Bride, (already being informed) must accept the cup of betrothal OF HER OWN FREE WILL. And the Bride can also CHOOSE to refuse. This follows PRECISELY the Jewish wedding pattern.

This covenant pattern, which is God ordained, is denied by the Calvinists.
For them, it is GOD ALONE who does the choosing. They say that we have ZERO say in the matter. Therefore our FREE WILL is violated, the covenant is illegitimate, and we are looking down the barrel of a shotgun wedding, and Satan accuses God of being a cosmic tyrant while the angelic host looks on. NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

Which of course is why they likewise believe that Mary WAS NOT asked PERMISSION.
She WAS asked in the course of the dialogue as we all are. Permission was then granted because it is always required.

 

[cv5]

Nope. I plainly said that is your claim. You have said it many times, now.

The truth of the matter, not that you are interested, is that Mary was informed.

It is your view that somehow that makes God the wicked things you claim others believe when I have said no such thing.
Nor has Cameron. But you can't help yourself, can you? You must lie and misrepresent others because that is your desire.

I realize you hate this fact about as much as you hate admitting the truth.

The wickedness here is YOUR believe that permission was NOT asked for (***therefore not required***) when the covenant offer was made to Mary. That is exactly what you stated.

Permission was GRANTED only because it was in fact ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED by custom and law, and Mary understood this full well. The full dialogue is in fact a NEGOTIATION PROCESS, where permission was needed in order to proceed, AND BOTH PARTIES KNEW IT.
Standard near east contract protocol.

After knowing all of the details, permission was finally granted by Mary.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Adam and Eve were fallen creatures in need of salvation.

We are fallen creatures in need of salvation.

How many ways can man be saved?

We have to do exactly the same thing Adam and Eve had to do to be saved............Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and YOU shall be saved.

Believing in spiritual things is not the cause of one's eternal deliverance. However, believing in spiritual thingscan cause one who is already born again can deliver them as they sojourn here on earth.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Are you arguing against Scripture again?

Is there a reason that you have quit responding to my post's? I hope that I haven't offended you in any way.

 

[Rufus]

Adam and Eve were no longer "very good" after they fell.

They were fallen creatures, just like us. And in need of salvation. There is only ONE way to be saved.Not one for Adam and Eve and another for us.

Acts 16:31

Really??? You're quite the paragon of spiritual knowledge, aren't you? Who would have ever thought that after they fell, they would become seriously damaged goods? Oh wait, I now remember. Jesus remembered that.

Mark 10:18
18 "Why do you call me good ?" Jesus answered. "No one is good — except God alone.
NIV

So...the human race at the very beginning started off "very good" and now it looks like we've gone to NO GOOD at all!

 

[Rufus]

Here is one of the disgusting lying posts from cv5 misrepresenting what I and another believe.

It is one of many.

Sister, don't pay cv5 any mind. He's totally shot. He called me a liar today for posting three solid proof texts out of the Psalms that teach God hates sinners. He more likely meant that God is the liar but he couldn't say such a thing without taking much heat.

 

[Rufus]

@Rufus said:
"There is nothing ever positive said about Adam in the bible."

There is little hope for anyone who believes this. The outlook is extremely grim.

The FACT is that there is NO PERSON IN THE BIBLE that is a more remarkable and poignant type of Christ.
And this is why:

==============================================================================================
"Adam sweat great drops of blood in the garden agonizing over his deliberate (NOT DECEIVED per 1 Tim 2:14) FREE WILL choice to be SEPARATED (aka ***die***) from his God in a calculated gambit to SAVE his bride the Woman.

Which of course is why Adam is a type of Christ."

================================================================================================
"Adam did not keel over when he ate the fruit. But he did willingly decide to DIE aka SEPARATE from his God to save the woman.

The first Adam in the first garden sweat great drops of blood (in effect) agonizing over his FREE WILL decision to DIE (give up his life of sweet loving harmony and perfect fellowship with his God, becoming a sinner) to take responsibility for the sin of his bride in order to save his bride.

The last Adam in the olive garden sweat great drops of blood agonizing over his FREE WILL decision to DIE (give up his life of sweet loving harmony and perfect fellowship with his God, becoming sin for us) to take responsibility for the sin of His Bride in order to save His Bride."

Hey, Einstein, show me from the bible where something positive is said about Adam.

And where did you come up with Adam sweating great drops of blood in the Garden? You have chapter and verse for this remarkable "revelation"?

 

[Magenta]

Sister, don't pay cv5 any mind. He's totally shot. He called me a liar today for posting three solid proof texts out of the Psalms that teach God hates sinners. He more likely meant that God is the liar but he couldn't say such a thing without taking much heat.

Oh, believe me, I rarely pay much attention to him at all since he blatantly and repeatedly lied over quite a period of time
about a fully grown male being a small or little kid... a "little kid" who towered over the police officers attending the scene.
He did not like being called out then any more than he does now.

And where did you come up with Adam sweating great drops of blood in the Garden? You have chapter and verse for this remarkable "revelation"?

Another one of his ridiculous fabrications. On and on it goes!

 

[cv5]

she was never asked she was told ---- Your in the wrong cv5

"And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus."

Now that you have read my last few posts, do you somewhat understand contract law in the near East better? Negotiations? Bilateral consent? Permission required and granted?

You do realize Moses went up and down Mount Sinai eight times? Right? Eight times negotiating negotiating negotiating. For weeks upon weeks. Down to the finest detail.

And in that case (as in all cases) permission is asked and consent MUST be given to satisfy the contract.

What's more, anyone with a grasp of the Old Testament would understand how this legal precedent exists in Luke 1.

However vast ignorance is the calling card of the Reformed/Calvinists. They read a series of passages and they have no idea of what is REALLY going on. It's ridiculous. Just shameful.

The same goes for Romans 9. They literally have no idea of what's going on here.
They have no idea that Paul is referring to Jeremiah 18, with the context being nations not individuals. They have no idea that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever therein related to Calvinism. Absolutely zero.

 

[Gideon300]

God created man but gave man free will. Yet God wants man to give us our free will and live according to Gods will.
This intersection of free will and "discerning" Gods will, can be quite challenging.

Here is an example. I'm 51 currently out of work. I've been praying for God to guide me through this difficult time. To be honest, I DONT want to go back to corporate work, but the reality of finances and such might dictate i do so versus starting a new business on my own.
I've been praying and asking God to open doors and opportunities which requires faith. At the same time, God isn't a genie, so a job or new business isn't going to come unless I apply, network, etc. I must DO or ACT upon my own free will and or thoughts to make it happen. While there may be some Christians are many who might say patiently wait upon the Lord.

Another example, prior to be going back to church, I was listening to David Goggins (Navy seal, motivational speaker) and purchased his two audio books. Listening to his message of self-empowerment allowed me to lose 20+ pounds through dedicated working out and a strict diet. The mindset of "you are on your own" and you can do it was empowering. However, does this conflict with biblical principals as well? For the bible says "I am made perfect in your weakness." My point is we have the ability through our own free will do certain things, we can choose what car we buy, what foods we eat, surely, I don't need Gods discernment on everything, etc right?

I don't know if others feel this, but when I feel vulnerable (and humble) when I pray to God several times a day.
But when I feel like it's not my time (God doesn't or hasn't answer my prayer) then I say OK, and I'm going to make something happen if you get my point. Please correct me if I'm not thinking about this right.

God's will is usually not that hard. It is in the mundane. We do not need an angel to tell us to get out of bed or go to work. When it gets more complicated, we need to ask God for His will to be done and leave it in His hands. The main thing is to keep doing what we know to do. A ship can be steered if it is moving. If it not under way, it cannot change course. Wind and tides will eventually take it onto the rocks.

When I was out of work, I spent hours looking for a job. That's how God works usually. If we are seeking, we will find. And I did. When it comes to things like diet and exercise, the proof will be when the motivation fades. The fruit of the Spirit includes self control. If we mean business with God, we can depend on the Holy Spirit to be our inner motivation. Most people who go on a diet fail after a time. The Holy spirit does not fail.

 

[cv5]

Hey, Einstein, show me from the bible where something positive is said about Adam.

And where did you come up with Adam sweating great drops of blood in the Garden? You have chapter and verse for this remarkable "revelation"?

Adam, in effect, defeated Satan. Satan who is the wisest, most powerful being created being.
In fact Satan found it impossible to deceive Adam. Which of course is entirely to be expected.

Bet you didn't know that either buddy.
But the wise? They understand.

 

[Kroogz]

Really??? You're quite the paragon of spiritual knowledge, aren't you? Who would have ever thought that after they fell, they would become seriously damaged goods? Oh wait, I now remember. Jesus remembered that.

Mark 10:18
18 "Why do you call me good ?" Jesus answered. "No one is good — except God alone.
NIV

So...the human race at the very beginning started off "very good" and now it looks like we've gone to NO GOOD at all!

Reformed theology is a natural man theology. They just cannot see the simple~ plain~spiritual~truth of the matter.
But I think you DO see my point, but just deny it. Worse than not seeing it IMO.

 

[Kroogz]

Adam, in effect, defeated Satan. Satan who is the wisest, most powerful being created being.
In fact Satan found it impossible to deceive Adam. Which of course is entirely to be expected.

Bet you didn't know that either buddy.
But the wise? They understand.

I have met just a few believers who know the angelic conflict/kingdom conflict. Nice to know another one brother.

 

[Magenta]

And one more time, I was not straying from my original point.

God bless sister.

Doesn't change the fact that I agreed with you but you went ahead with an argumentative attitude
towards what I'd said none the less, speaking to me as if I'd said things I had not. Not sure where all
that came from. If you want to argue with Rufus, please don't address and quote me to do it in future.

 

[Kroogz]

Doesn't change the fact that I agreed with you but you went ahead with an argumentative attitude
towards what I'd said none the less, speaking to me as if I'd said things I had not. Not sure where all
that came from. If you want to argue with Rufus, please don't address and quote me to do it in future.

This is your first post to me:
Adam and Eve were of the natural world and I agree: they were in as much need of being born again as we
start out being. One difference I see is that they became children of wrath, whereas that is our starting point.

End QUOTE.

I agree with this point.

But that was not the point of my posts.

This is very simple. There is only one way to be saved. If Adam and Eve can freely choose Christ for their salvation(the ONLY way) We most certainly can because there is NO other way.
John 3:16
Acts 16:31

 

[Magenta]

This is your first post to me:
Adam and Eve were of the natural world and I agree: they were in as much need of being born again as we
start out being. One difference I see is that they became children of wrath, whereas that is our starting point.

End QUOTE.

I agree with this point.

But that was not the point of my posts.

This is very simple. There is only one way to be saved. If Adam and Eve can freely choose Christ for their salvation(the ONLY way) We most certainly can because there is NO other way.
John 3:16
Acts 16:31

That's a big if. Just sayin'. And the verses I have given a number of times from John 12 say otherwise.
Nobody addresses them because it slays the notion of free will. In fact, I have never seen free will
mentioned in relation to being saved, so all the wool gathering done around it is quite frankly unBiblical.
Then people automatically jump to thinking I believe something I do not. They have no sense.

John 12:38b-40 “Lord, who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord
been revealed?” For this reason they were unable to believe. For again, Isaiah says: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them.”