The Gospels and the Mystery

[posthuman]

No. You are not honest in what you're saying. Please quote precisely what I said IN CONTXT rather than to spin these webs of deceit! Speak EXACTLY what it is I said!

MM

you said Abraham did not know Christ.
you are incorrect.

Abraham did not know Christ Jesus

if you want to repent, by all means do so. that is certainly my hope for you.
but right now you're just making yourself look stupid, per the Biblical definition of "stupid" ((Proverbs 12:1))

 

[rogerg]

endure in what?

in faith.

One
Everlasting
Gospel

One
Everlasting
God

[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[cv5]

Claims in and of themselves prove nothing. I showed from scripture the differences in content within each Gospel, where you showed nothing. As an antagonist, your words don't carry any weight without evidence. What you quoted is only partial, and proves nothing for your case. Abraham did not know Christ Jesus, but his salvation was sealed because of his faith in YHWH that placed him IN Christ for salvation. So, yes, Christ is indeed the common foundation for salvation across all Gospels, but your lack of understanding about Israel and the fact that Gentiles had to become Jews to be saved, and how that relates to the differences between the Kingdom Gospel and the Gospel of Grace, they speak for themselves by way of content differences.

MM

Oh Abraham understood the ultimate realization of the promises. To what extent we do not know. But he knew.

Jhn 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The thing is, we finite beings will never be able to grasp the fullness of God. But faith as a mustard seed is enough to save.
Only infinity can fully understand infinity.

Mat 11:27
“All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

 

[posthuman]

Oh Abraham understood the ultimate realization of the promises. To what extent we do not know. But he knew.

@Musicmaster

Abraham recognized the physical manifestation of God and rose up to greet Him, calling Him LORD, when He came to visit before destroying Sodom.
because he had met Him. he knew Him. he trusted Him and believed Him. all his faith is in Him.

and that physical manifestation of God is Jesus Christ - Jesus Christ is YHVW

 

[homwardbound]

It was never my intent to convey the idea that Paul alone preached the Gospel of Grace. The eleven were aware of the change that had taken place in the Lord's salvation of mankind in the face of Israel's utter failure to remain salt and light to the world for salvation. What I have consistently said is that it was revealed to him first what was hidden in God from the creation of the world, and we are told why it was hidden in God. Peter, for a short stint, preached to Gentiles, but Paul was indeed the the one through whom the Lord worked through to get that Gospel of Grace out to the Gentiles, which spread faster than a wild fire, fueled by persecutions.

MM

yes, I get that brother in risen Son. Peter said Paul was hard to understand and yet has got it, in 3 Peter towards the end. Paul rebuked Peter in front of the Gentiles in (Galatians), when Peter still in fear of his brethren, would hide and not do as said he was now allowed to do. I know Peter hated that.
Just as I hate it whenever anyone rebukes me too. Just as everyone is the same in that, being still in unredeemed flesh and blood natures too. Time to start taking any and all rebuke to God Father in the risen Son and hear truth over error and learn from all, to remain dead as are made that by God in risen Son, yet alive for us all to be alive right now too.. Me still learning as Paul said it in Phil 3, I put behind me, what is behind me, and move forward into future
I see that as move forward is in the present second daily, and learn from any and every mistake made, hearing from God the correcting, not people doing the correcting as if God goes to God's other children to correct other children, not true to me to see that.
I know I will not go to my daughter and tell her to tell her brother he messed up. I would and will go directly to my child. that is what God does now, for us all through Son as risen for us all, where new life begins in each person that decides to believe God and stick to that, no matter what troubles come up or not. God and I know I have and do that too, as I see you doing that in your writings, and me hearing God has got you smothered and covered din his love too, thank you

 

[Wansvic]

I don't disagree with you that there is only one Gospel that is valid today, but Jesus Himself pointed out that the tribulation period, just like before the Gospel of Grace, they did then, and will have to in the future, "endure unto the end."

We today who are in Christ are sealed by Holy Spirit, and born again, and therefore saved unto the uttermost by His Power and His finished work. The Gospel of Grace will end at the rapture, with those people having to endure to the end so that they shall be saved on that basis. We are not under that, and we are not under the requirement to be water baptized for the remission of sins as was the case before the dispensation of grace.

It's no more complicated than that, whether others feel that such is not the case. Peter spoke what was valid to them at that time, in that they had to be water baptized for the remission of their sins. Placing some label that alleged "hyper" doesn't make your case when we can read the words Peter spoke in Acts 2 and plainly understand them without the spiritualization of the words recorded of Peter's speech to the Jews, and thus warping and twisting it into whatever meaning fits the bill of wishful thinking of some. I'm not saying you are doing this, but there are those here who do.

MM

According to the word, there is a common salvation that all should earnestly pursue. And that common salvation was first delivered to the saints/apostles. All groups of humanity received the same gospel. None were exempt from its requirements. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jude 3

 

[posthuman]

According to the word, there is a common salvation that all should earnestly pursue. And that common salvation was first delivered to the saints/apostles.

"saints" is not just a reference to the apostles but refers not only to believers after the time of Christ's advent but also before - everyone whose trust is in Him

Psalms 30:4​

Sing praise to the LORD, ​

you saints of His, ​

and give thanks ​

at the remembrance of His holy name.​

​

there is one Salvation, and His name is Jesus, and He has been from the beginning. it's literally His name.

 

[Wansvic]

"saints" is not just a reference to the apostles but refers not only to believers after the time of Christ's advent but also before - everyone whose trust is in Him

Psalms 30:4​

Sing praise to the LORD, ​

you saints of His, ​

and give thanks ​

at the remembrance of His holy name.​

​

there is one Salvation, and His name is Jesus, and He has been from the beginning. it's literally His name.

As prophesied by Jesus Himself the gospel message was first presented on the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) The Apostle Peter delivered the message that was, and still is, carried into all nations. The common salvation as expressed through detailed accounts included, without exception, belief in Jesus' sacrifice, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sin, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

To believe and obey the gospel as set forth is the very act of trusting in Jesus.

 

[Musicmaster]

According to the word, there is a common salvation that all should earnestly pursue. And that common salvation was first delivered to the saints/apostles. All groups of humanity received the same gospel. None were exempt from its requirements. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jude 3

Yes, Jude did indeed write the truth to those to whom that truth was applied.

Paul, on the other hand, as to the Gospel he was given that was not that of the eleven as shown in Acts 2, was not that of which Jude, the brother of James, spoke. The strongest opponents of dispensations have yet to explain how there is no difference in what was revealed to Paul and what was already being preached by the eleven. Paul knew precisely what they were preaching given that he was persecuting them because of them teaching that very Gospel, so if there was no difference, then there would not have been any mystery revealed to Paul that had been hidden in God from the creation of the world.

That is what's so fantastic about the arguments against the gospel dispensations.

MM

 

[posthuman]

As prophesied by Jesus Himself the gospel message was first presented on the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) The Apostle Peter delivered the message that was, and still is, carried into all nations.

Luke 24:45-47​

And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, ​

"Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.​

​

this says He showed them from the OT that the gospel was foretold long ago, that He would appear, suffer, die, be buried and rise.

and He Himself preached repentance and forgiveness of sins long before pentecost, not only in Jerusalem but throughout Judea, even to gentiles.

 

[Musicmaster]

As prophesied by Jesus Himself the gospel message was first presented on the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) The Apostle Peter delivered the message that was, and still is, carried into all nations. The common salvation as expressed through detailed accounts included, without exception, belief in Jesus' sacrifice, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sin, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

To believe and obey the gospel as set forth is the very act of trusting in Jesus.

Yes, Peter said this right after being filled with Holy Spirit:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No command to believe in the crucifixion, burial and resurrection on the third day, as was the Gospel Paul preached within the Gospel of Grace. Rather than to DO the work of water baptism, grace is the very expression of salvation by grace through faith without works.

So, using the ripped from its context of "common salvation" does not at all mesh together into one Gospel message that spans off of the time from the Gospels through Revelation. The differences are too glaring for there to be a seamless canvas that traverses across the entire NT narrative.

MM

 

[posthuman]

Paul, on the other hand, as to the Gospel he was given that was not that of the eleven as shown in Acts 2,

Paul didn't say he preached something other than what Jesus or the other apostles preached.

Paul said Peter, James and John had nothing to add to what he already understood the gospel to be, and Paul's writings cite the OT as proof of all the things he taught.

thus one gospel, which had been written in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms since long ago - just as Christ also opened the eyes of the others and showed them that the scriptures foretold everything He had come and done, His death and His resurrection for forgiveness of sin through faith.

 

[posthuman]

No command to believe in the crucifixion, burial and resurrection on the third day,

um..

if you read Acts 2, Peter had just preached the death burial and resurrection of Christ...

... then those who believed asked him what they should do, and he told them repent and be baptized.

so...

 

[cv5]

Paul's writings cite the OT as proof of all the things he taught.

Tragically lost on the Church today. I have been battling this ignorance for the last few days here on CC.
The richness of Scripture is lost and what you are left with is endless repetition of Bible soundbites that are devoid of accurate meaning.

The Reformed/Calvinist crew have no idea of the OT structure, pattern and protocols of God's covenants.
The key features being informed consent and grants of permission.

Moses went up and down Mt Sinai at least EIGHT TIMES. Doing what exactly? Negotiating of course. Endless negotiations right down to the finest detail. An effort that took weeks upon weeks to finalize.

And then of course this was the result.

Exo 19:8
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.

Same goes for the angel and Mary the mother of Jesus in Luke chapter 1.
A covenant of sorts was FIRSTLY negotiated, with the necessary informed consent requirement embedded within.
After all of the facts were understood by BOTH parties, ONLY THEN did Mary provide the necessary permission.

And then of course this was the result.

Luk 1:38
And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

========================================================================================

I do hope that @Rufus and @Magenta and @ForestGreenCook are paying attention.

 

[Wansvic]

Yes, Jude did indeed write the truth to those to whom that truth was applied.

Paul, on the other hand, as to the Gospel he was given that was not that of the eleven as shown in Acts 2, was not that of which Jude, the brother of James, spoke. The strongest opponents of dispensations have yet to explain how there is no difference in what was revealed to Paul and what was already being preached by the eleven. Paul knew precisely what they were preaching given that he was persecuting them because of them teaching that very Gospel, so if there was no difference, then there would not have been any mystery revealed to Paul that had been hidden in God from the creation of the world.

That is what's so fantastic about the arguments against the gospel dispensations.

MM

As mentioned previously Paul preached the same gospel. This is evidenced in his interaction with the Ephesus 12 some 20+ years after Peter first presented the gospel message at Pentecost. The men believed in Jesus, submitted to water baptism in the name of Jesus. And afterward they received the Holy Ghost.

The mystery hidden throughout the OT was that salvation would become available for all humanity.

 

[Wansvic]

Luke 24:45-47​

And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Then He said to them, ​

"Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.​

​

this says He showed them from the OT that the gospel was foretold long ago, that He would appear, suffer, die, be buried and rise.

and He Himself preached repentance and forgiveness of sins long before pentecost, not only in Jerusalem but throughout Judea, even to gentiles.

Jesus said it would preached in His name to all nations, BEGINNING IN JERUSALEM...

The NT rebirth was not possible for those living prior to Jesus' glorification. The ability to be reborn became a reality for all those living after the Holy Ghost was poured out at Pentecost:

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear...
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine...

 

[Wansvic]

Yes, Peter said this right after being filled with Holy Spirit:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No command to believe in the crucifixion, burial and resurrection on the third day, as was the Gospel Paul preached within the Gospel of Grace. Rather than to DO the work of water baptism, grace is the very expression of salvation by grace through faith without works.

So, using the ripped from its context of "common salvation" does not at all mesh together into one Gospel message that spans off of the time from the Gospels through Revelation. The differences are too glaring for there to be a seamless canvas that traverses across the entire NT narrative.

MM

No ripping going on. It says what it says: "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. " Jude 3

The individuals at Pentecost did indeed express belief in Jesus' sacrifice and asked what was required of them:
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Acts 2:36-37 Peter responds with the words recorded in Acts 2:38-39.

 

[Musicmaster]

As mentioned previously Paul preached the same gospel. This is evidenced in his interaction with the Ephesus 12 some 20+ years after Peter first presented the gospel message at Pentecost. The men believed in Jesus, submitted to water baptism in the name of Jesus. And afterward they received the Holy Ghost.

The mystery hidden throughout the OT was that salvation would become available for all humanity.

Not only that, but the elements and the result of that mystery, in that Gentiles could be saved independent of Israel. Downplaying the enormity of that mystery, and that it was not the same as that preached by the eleven, which I clearly showed through quotes right from the scriptures, I don't understand how or why you are denying it:

1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Don't you see it? The Gentiles having an avenue for salvation independent of having to become a Jew...man, that's the one thing in this world that's awesome. No man, no thing, no event in this world is awesome, but the salvation revealed from that mystery that does not require entry into Judaism, that's what shines the light squarely upon the LORD.

So, if you are among those who preach the requirement for water baptism for the remission of sins, that is another gospel that is not written TO us today. That was for them back then who were still under the Kingdom Gospel. If you consider yourself under the Kingdom Gospel, and you think yourself capable of adding to grace, or completing it by way of works, then I'm afraid all who follow that thinking may end up with a surprise they won't like.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Jesus said it would preached in His name to all nations, BEGINNING IN JERUSALEM...

The NT rebirth was not possible for those living prior to Jesus' glorification. The ability to be reborn became a reality for all those living after the Holy Ghost was poured out at Pentecost:

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear...
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine...

All I can say is that you're not rightly dividing the word of truth in order to see the clear lines of distinction and separation.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

No ripping going on. It says what it says: "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. " Jude 3

The individuals at Pentecost did indeed express belief in Jesus' sacrifice and asked what was required of them:
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Acts 2:36-37 Peter responds with the words recorded in Acts 2:38-39.

The issue is not that they believed in the blood of Christ, what matters it the Gospel that they preached, and I quoted to you exactly what Peter preached, and it said nothing about the Blood of Christ. Those people listening underneath that balcony upon which Peter stood, we have no record that they were told about the need for faith in the shed Blood. What they were told when they asked as to be water baptized and repent. Yes, they were told that they had crucified the Messiah, which did indeed cut them to the heart, but faith in that finished work alone was not Peter's message to them. He preached WORKS, as did James when stating that a man is justified by WORKS, when Paul said that a man is justified by FAITH. That is NOT the same message. Spiritualizing it all will not create magical tape to try and make it all into one, singular Gospel at the exclusion of the content differences.

MM