The rapture? The comimg of Christ.

[Scribe]

"Exposed?" I am not sure what you mean by that. There are plenty of good authors who are well educated in all the interpretations of prophesy scriptures in the past 500 years that have present their case using the rules of heremeneutics for their views on pre-tribulation rapture, mid-tribulation or post-tribulation rapture. Many have done a good job and those who study the texts in question and read these different presentations from scholarly authors have decided for themselves which view they believe is the one intended by the authors of scripture or by the Spirit that inspired these authors. Those that believe they are standing on correct interpretation and can present a case for it, are not "ignorant" if they did not come up with the same view as yours.

If you want to present a case for a post tribulation view, just present it. The pre-tribulation view can be presented with scriptures as well. I lean toward a pre-tribulation view. Howbeit not a "secret one." I do agree that there is nothing in the text to suggest anyone dissappears from view. As a matter of fact the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ must be a visible one or it would not be a resurrection of the body. Those that are alive at that time that are changed are changed in a glorification kind of way and shine like the stars and are bright like the firmament and rise and meet the Lord in the clouds, all of which are visible descriptions not invisible.
The fact that they shine like the stars (Dan 12) and rise is to the praise of the Glory of God's Grace and the manifestation (visible) of the sons of God. A vindication if you will.

One of the main reasons that scholars who lean toward the pre-tribulation view (other than that we are not appointed to wrath and because Jesus said to pray to escape these judgments that will come upon the earth) is that the doctrine of watching and waiting and being ready for the coming of the Lord at any time suggests a pre-tribulation rapture and this doctrine of the imminent return of Christ is violated by a mid-trib or post trib view. So in order that all of the scriptures agree the pre-trib view is still a strong one among scholars, and it's popularity is not due to ignorant unlearned Christians as you suppose. Yes, some are pre-tribulation in their view simply because their church or pastor tells them so, but that is not the reason that it is the prevailing view. It is a prevailing view because in a scholarly article presented in theological academic circles for review using the rules of hermeneutics it continiues to convince the intellectually honest that it is a stronger case than the other views. But there is room for differences of opinions on this. Lets not dismiss those that do not see it the way we do as being "unlearned", deceived, or ignorant becuase that is not the case at all and to suggest so would indicate that you might not have been "exposed" to scholarly books on this subject. Dwight Pentecost does a good job of presenting a scholarly view in his book Things to Come a Study in Biblical Eschatology. And though I do not agree with everything he writes, there is no question that he presents a good case and there are many others like him. Read some of these books and many of your questions will be answered as to other interpretations. You might still be convinced that your view is the correct one but you will probably learn some things, and discover other texts you were not aware of on this subject.

I do agree that the doctrine of watching and praying and being ready for the return of Christ should not be weakened by any view of eschatology. If one begins to look for the Antichrist to be revealed first, before the Christ is revealed from heaven they may have misunderstood something they read and dismissed all of the admonitions to look for his coming for one verse they are misunderstanding. When we put the return of Christ off for other prophesies to be fulfilled first we dismiss everything Jesus taught about living ready for that moment to occur without warning.

Also, your idea that the second coming cannot have two stages is not valid, the prophesies about his first coming were often mixed with prophesies about the second coming and we now know that the coming of the Messaiah and the Kingdom of God had at least two stages to it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Also, your idea that the second coming cannot have two stages is not valid, the prophesies about his first coming were often mixed with prophesies about the second coming and we now know that the coming of the Messaiah and the Kingdom of God had at least two stages to it.

Agreed, and well said.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

Just destroys pre trib. Someone already pointed this out.


Matthew 13:28-30
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:39
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @Saul-to-Paul , "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (Matt13) is FOLLOWED by "the age [singular] to come" that Jesus had ALREADY spoken of in the previous chpt (12:32), which His disciples UNDERSTOOD correctly... to be what we now call "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age" (Matt8:11 / Lk12:36-37,38,40 ALSO spoke of this very thing [and THEIR parallel passages]).





Re: the rest of that post you are referencing (about the "WHEAT" harvest [Matt13]), I addressed that issue in Post #6 (and Post #7) -

https://christianchat.com/threads/the-rapture-the-comimg-of-christ.216650/post-5377413



There is no way that this "destroys pre trib," as you suggest. Not at all!

 

[Scribe]

Just destroys pre trib. Someone already pointed this out.


Matthew 13:28-30
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:39
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

If one sees it as support for post trib then they must interpret it as a promise to protect the saints while the wicked are being burned. Which is not really true to the agricultural illustration. I assume that the wheat is gathered into barns before they ignite the bundles of tares. It is a parable to illustrate and the details are not as important as the main point which is that they are allowed to grow together and then there will be a separation. A pre trib rapture might answer to the gathering into barns of the wheat and the judgments and reaping by angels on the wicked could answer to the burning of the bundles of tares. At any rate it does not "destroy" the pre trib view since many pre trib presenters have used it as support. Its one of those that both sides use to suppor their view. Don't press too hard on the "Gather ye together FIRST the tares" without contending for the "bind them in bundles" TO burn them (but the burning does not happen until the wheat is gathered into barns. You might be interrpreting it as saying that the tares are burned first but the text does not say that. It says gather them into bundles ...in preparation to be burned, but gather the wheat into barns and then let the burning commence. At least there can be a case made for this based on what this agricultural illustration meant to those who were familiar with this farming task. A little background information about what this agricultural task looked like in that time. If it can be found that they would not burn the bundles until the wheat had been gathered out then the emphasis on "FIRST" is on binding them in bundles, and not on burning them. At any rate it does not "destory" a pretrib view.

 

[Inquisitor]

Since you are so "keen" to insist/suggest that prophetic 'reality' will actually and necessarily occur as an extremely close reflection of the fine detail of how it is illustrated in scripture - please explain why the 'harvest' does not keep going up - and, is temporarily stored in the heavenly vault - instead of coming back down immediately after the 'chaff' is blown away while it is "in the air"...?

The 'harvest' is "tossed up into the air" while the 'chaff' is blown away - immediately after which - the 'harvest' returns back down to where it was before being tossed up into the air.

The Second Coming of Christ - as a single 'event' - beginning with the resurrection/rapture - and continuing into the 1000-year reign of Christ after the 'Wrath of God' occurs - blowing the chaff away - is a better description of the illustration of scripture. No one is taken to heaven to wait for events on earth to unfold before returning to earth - all of it occurs on earth - in its proper order.

Order of Events:

1) Christ appears - every eye will see Him
2) resurrection/rapture of the Saints
3) 'Wrath of God' unfolds upon the earth
4) continuation of 1000-year reign of Christ

I have some questions for you.

Where do you place the antichrist and the false prophet in the order of events?

 

[Inquisitor]

John 11:24-25 KJV
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Therefore the first resurrection is when someone who was dead yet live. That someone must be already alive to believe. Clearly Martha was speaking of the second resurrection.

Revelation 20: 4,5 KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

But these souls are reigning in heaven. Are saved men on the earth reigning in heaven?

Luke 17:20,21 KJV
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The first resurrection is of the soul. If a person has not been resurrected in their soul existence while alive on the earth then it's guaranteed that person will partake in the second death. (which btw is not being cast into the lake of fire)

Only God can raise the dead.

Ephesians 2:5 KJV
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened (made alive) us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

I have contemplated that variation in interpretation also.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

If one sees it as support for post trib then they must interpret it as a promise to protect the saints while the wicked are being burned. Which is not really true to the agricultural illustration. I assume that the wheat is gathered into barns before they ignite the bundles of tares. It is a parable to illustrate and the details are not as important as the main point which is that they are allowed to grow together and then there will be a separation. A pre trib rapture might answer to the gathering into barns of the wheat and the judgments and reaping by angels on the wicked could answer to the burning of the bundles of tares. At any rate it does not "destroy" the pre trib view since many pre trib presenters have used it as support. Its one of those that both sides use to suppor their view. Don't press too hard on the "Gather ye together FIRST the tares" without contending for the "bind them in bundles" TO burn them (but the burning does not happen until the wheat is gathered into barns. You might be interrpreting it as saying that the tares are burned first but the text does not say that. It says gather them into bundles ...in preparation to be burned, but gather the wheat into barns and then let the burning commence. At least there can be a case made for this based on what this agricultural illustration meant to those who were familiar with this farming task. A little background information about what this agricultural task looked like in that time. If it can be found that they would not burn the bundles until the wheat had been gathered out then the emphasis on "FIRST" is on binding them in bundles, and not on burning them. At any rate it does not "destory" a pretrib view.

Gather the tares "first" ..........before the world is destroyed. Not "first"...... before the wheat. The unsaved will be gathered, judged, and then cast into the lake of fire before God destroys the earth.

 

[Inquisitor]

What is the first resurrection?
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

the next time we are told that Jesus will come is
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

That occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation, that is not Pre-Tribulation nor Mid-Tribulation.

 

[Scribe]

Gather the tares "first" ..........before the world is destroyed. Not "first"...... before the wheat. The unsaved will be gathered, judged, and then cast into the lake of fire before God destroys the earth.

It is a parable of an agricultural project known to the hearers. One must imagine the actual farming task first to apply the message. Don't let the wheat be harmed by the gathering of the tares until the wheat has finished growing. Then separate the two by gathering the tares into bundles to be burned and gathering the wheat into the barns. The point is that there will be a separation and the saints are not going to endure the judgments of the wrath of God upon the tares. One view is that the saints are protected while the tares are being burned but that does not seem to fit this parable which says to wait and not pull up the tares until the time, so that the wheat are not harmed. Then separte them and burn the tares. It seems to support a pretrib rapture view more than a post trib rapture view which would be contradicting the parable. Insisting that the message is "Do not pull up the tares lest the wheat be harmed" and 'Pull up the tares while the wheat are still there and some how they wont be harmed, even though he just said not to do that" kind of interpretation. If anything this parable dismisses the "Saints will go through the wrath of God upon the wicked out poursing (threshings) and not be harmed but not yet be gathered into barns" Theory. Don't you think?

 

[Kroogz]

^ @Saul-to-Paul , "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (Matt13) is FOLLOWED by "the age [singular] to come" that Jesus had ALREADY spoken of in the previous chpt (12:32), which His disciples UNDERSTOOD correctly... to be what we now call "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age" (Matt8:11 / Lk12:36-37,38,40 ALSO spoke of this very thing [and THEIR parallel passages]).





Re: the rest of that post you are referencing (about the "WHEAT" harvest [Matt13]), I addressed that issue in Post #6 (and Post #7) -

https://christianchat.com/threads/the-rapture-the-comimg-of-christ.216650/post-5377413



There is no way that this "destroys pre trib," as you suggest. Not at all!

Thanks for your posts brother. That was a treasure trove of studying material.

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

It is a parable of an agricultural project known to the hearers. One must imagine the actual farming task first to apply the message. Don't let the wheat be harmed by the gathering of the tares until the wheat has finished growing. Then separate the two by gathering the tares into bundles to be burned and gathering the wheat into the barns. The point is that there will be a separation and the saints are not going to endure the judgments of the wrath of God upon the tares. One view is that the saints are protected while the tares are being burned but that does not seem to fit this parable which says to wait and not pull up the tares until the time, so that the wheat are not harmed. Then separte them and burn the tares. It seems to support a pretrib rapture view more than a post trib rapture view which would be contradicting the parable. Insisting that the message is "Do not pull up the tares lest the wheat be harmed" and 'Pull up the tares while the wheat are still there and some how they wont be harmed, even though he just said not to do that" kind of interpretation. If anything this parable dismisses the "Saints will go through the wrath of God upon the wicked out poursing (threshings) and not be harmed but not yet be gathered into barns" Theory. Don't you think?

Satan hasn't brought great tribulation against Satan.

Matthew 12:26
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

No. The parable does not address the great tribulation.

 

[Scribe]

Satan hasn't brought great tribulation against Satan.

Matthew 12:26
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

No. The parable does not address the great tribulation.

If in explaining it he mentions angels threshing, and these angels threshing are mentioned in Rev as part of that time of the wrath being poured out (Great Tribulation) then there is every reason to think that this addresses that same time period.

 

[Scribe]

Satan hasn't brought great tribulation against Satan.

Matthew 12:26
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

No. The parable does not address the great tribulation.

I am not sure what you mean. It is not satan that brings judgment during the Great Tribulation but God himself or you could even say the Lamb. That satan and the antichrist is one of the things God uses to judge people is true but God gets all the glory for the threshing of the wicked not satan.

 

[TMS]

Jesus said the Great Tribulation starts when you see the abomination of desolation standing there In the holy place.

The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years or 42 months or time times and a half a time 1260 Days

But the seven year. Comes from different factors

1 the 70th week is called Jacob's trouble, that's 7 years.

2 The beginning of sorrow It's before the man of sin and will be a very rocky road.Matt24

3 Daniel 9:27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So even though the Great Tribulation is only three and a half years. There still is a period of time of seven years of trouble.

thus Christians call it a seven year tribulation.

There may well be a 7 year time of trouble but what you are doing is making these verses fit your interpretation.

When did the sacrifices cease? When did the offering of lambs become obsolete?

At the cross. They were made desolate by the real deal. Jesus is the sacrifice we need to look to. The cerimonial offerings all pointed to Jesus.

Dan 9: 27

Right in the middle of the 70th week Jesus died and brought all of the sacrifices to an end.

The 3 and a half years and 42 months, and times time and dividing of time are the same time period in prophecy.

That time has come and gone.....

Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

It is a known truth that a day = a year in bible prophecy. It is applied to the 70 week prophecy, and when you apply it to the 3and a half year prophecy it = 1260 years.

Be consistent. Half a week = 3.5 years
Some 3.5 years = 1260 years
A day for a year.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

It is easy to find a time in history when the church of God, was persecuted and went to the mountains to hide for 1260 years. It's called the dark ages. Millions of believers were killed because they didn't follow the blasphemies of catholicism.

538-1798.....1260 years.
Pope Vigilius is the first pope with unquestioned loyalty to Justinian and his new code, which in 538 becomes meaningfully effective for the first time. Church controlled the state.

There is a clear and parallel symmetry in the 1,260-year period starting with a pope being exiled and replaced with one hand-picked by the emperor under the auspices of a new legal code (the Justinian Code—one that elevates the Roman church to official, legal priority), and ending with a pope being exiled by an emperor and a religious code replaced by a secular rule (the Napoleonic Code, a secular system that rejects the idea of a special place for the church).
Napoleon took the pope captive in 1798. And the church lost its authoritative power over most people.

3.5 years have been prophesied and have happened.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

There may well be a 7 year time of trouble but what you are doing is making these verses fit your interpretation.

When did the sacrifices cease? When did the offering of lambs become obsolete?

At the cross. They were made desolate by the real deal. Jesus is the sacrifice we need to look to. The cerimonial offerings all pointed to Jesus.

Dan 9: 27

Right in the middle of the 70th week Jesus died and brought all of the sacrifices to an end.

The 3 and a half years and 42 months, and times time and dividing of time are the same time period in prophecy.

That time has come and gone.....

Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

It is a known truth that a day = a year in bible prophecy. It is applied to the 70 week prophecy, and when you apply it to the 3and a half year prophecy it = 1260 years.

Be consistent. Half a week = 3.5 years
Some 3.5 years = 1260 years
A day for a year.

Dan 7:25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

It is easy to find a time in history when the church of God, was persecuted and went to the mountains to hide for 1260 years. It's called the dark ages. Millions of believers were killed because they didn't follow the blasphemies of catholicism.

538-1798.....1260 years.
Pope Vigilius is the first pope with unquestioned loyalty to Justinian and his new code, which in 538 becomes meaningfully effective for the first time. Church controlled the state.

There is a clear and parallel symmetry in the 1,260-year period starting with a pope being exiled and replaced with one hand-picked by the emperor under the auspices of a new legal code (the Justinian Code—one that elevates the Roman church to official, legal priority), and ending with a pope being exiled by an emperor and a religious code replaced by a secular rule (the Napoleonic Code, a secular system that rejects the idea of a special place for the church).
Napoleon took the pope captive in 1798. And the church lost its authoritative power over most people.

3.5 years have been prophesied and have happened.

So when the mark of the beast is instituted and enforced, you'll take it since you won't think there won't be any serious eternal consequences for it?


🐳

 

[Dalet]

A large number of Christians have been exposed to this "dispensationalist" or "futurist" interpretation of prophecy called the secret rapture, and have been hopelessly confused.

According to this view, the coming of Jesus will be in two separate events. First, He will come secretly to take the church to heaven, and then, seven years later, He will come in an open demonstration of power and glory. In between those two events, the Antichrist is supposed to come into power and the great tribulation period takes place.

But the truth is that the Bible nowhere speaks of these two separate comings of Jesus. There is no second stage of His second coming that occurs seven years after the socalled "rapture." By the way, that word "rapture" is also an invention of theologians. It can't be found in the Bible in even a single instance. It is a word coined for the second advent of Jesus.

Now here is what we find in the Scriptures: Christ's coming, the resurrection, and catching up of the saints to meet Jesus in the air, all take place at the same time, at the end of the world. This is why Jesus said, "Lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world" (Matthew 28:20). Now why would Jesus promise to be with the church until the end of the world if He intended to come seven years before the end to take them out of the world? The promise would have no meaning.

 

[BOY]

There may well be a 7 year time of trouble but what you are doing is making these verses fit your interpretation.

When did the sacrifices cease? When did the offering of lambs become obsolete?

At the cross. They were made desolate by the real deal. Jesus is the sacrifice we need to look to. The cerimonial offerings all pointed to Jesus.

Dan 9: 27

Right in the middle of the 70th week Jesus died and brought all of the sacrifices to an end.

The 3 and a half years and 42 months, and times time and dividing of time are the same time period in prophecy.

That time has come and gone.....

Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

It is a known truth that a day = a year in bible prophecy. It is applied to the 70 week prophecy, and when you apply it to the 3and a half year prophecy it = 1260 years.

Be consistent. Half a week = 3.5 years
Some 3.5 years = 1260 years
A day for a year.

Dan 7:25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

It is easy to find a time in history when the church of God, was persecuted and went to the mountains to hide for 1260 years. It's called the dark ages. Millions of believers were killed because they didn't follow the blasphemies of catholicism.

538-1798.....1260 years.
Pope Vigilius is the first pope with unquestioned loyalty to Justinian and his new code, which in 538 becomes meaningfully effective for the first time. Church controlled the state.

There is a clear and parallel symmetry in the 1,260-year period starting with a pope being exiled and replaced with one hand-picked by the emperor under the auspices of a new legal code (the Justinian Code—one that elevates the Roman church to official, legal priority), and ending with a pope being exiled by an emperor and a religious code replaced by a secular rule (the Napoleonic Code, a secular system that rejects the idea of a special place for the church).
Napoleon took the pope captive in 1798. And the church lost its authoritative power over most people.

3.5 years have been prophesied and have happened.

With all respect. I don't think anybody believes that anymore. oh I don't think many people believe that anymore. we've moved on God as showed us more. things have opened up more since that old story.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Since you are so "keen" to insist/suggest that prophetic 'reality' will actually and necessarily occur as an extremely close reflection of the fine detail of how it is illustrated in scripture - please explain why the 'harvest' does not keep going up - and, is temporarily stored in the heavenly vault - instead of coming back down immediately after the 'chaff' is blown away while it is "in the air"...?

The 'harvest' is "tossed up into the air" while the 'chaff' is blown away - immediately after which - the 'harvest' returns back down to where it was before being tossed up into the air.

The Second Coming of Christ - as a single 'event' - beginning with the resurrection/rapture - and continuing into the 1000-year reign of Christ after the 'Wrath of God' occurs - blowing the chaff away - is a better description of the illustration of scripture. No one is taken to heaven to wait for events on earth to unfold before returning to earth - all of it occurs on earth - in its proper order.

You ask good and thoughtful questions, as always, GaryA.

I'll do my best to answer your concern (though I have indeed posted about this in the past).


First off, consider the following verses:

Exo 23:19
The first [H7225 (note what I said earlier!)] of the firstfruits [H1061] of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Exo 34:26
The first [H7225 (again, note what I said earlier)] of the firstfruits [H1061] of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.



____________


You say, "No one is taken to heaven to wait for events on earth to unfold before returning to earth..." (note: I wouldn't describe it as "to wait"... as though simply "twiddling [our] thumbs" LOL). I've addressed this in many ways, in many past posts... here is a brief sampling:

--you would have to DISREGARD the fact that the 1Th4:17 passage is IN THE SAME CONTEXT as Paul's words in 1Th3:13 ("in the presence [G1715] of the God and Father of us, in ______");


--you would have to DISREGARD the fact that the promise to "SHALL BE clothed in LEUKOS HIMATION [G3022 G2440]" (chpt 3, in the "things WHICH ARE" section)... is shown to have taken place in the wording of "HAVING BEEN CLOTHED in leukos himation [G3022 G2440]" (in the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" section) in 4:4;


--you would have to DISREGARD the fact that Paul said he would be awarded a "CROWN [/ stephanos / stephanon]"... "IN THAT DAY" (not the day of his death), and "not to [him] only"... and that in chpt 4 we see the ALREADY-AWARDED "crowns / stephanous" on their heads, as they are shown sitting on "thrones" (note: 1Cor6:3[,14] states, "know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS"... and note the same "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" wording used in Rom16:20 "... shall crush Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" [this hasn't taken place yet]... and same phrase used in Lk18:8, "avenge *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... which "avenge" word I've pointed out PARALLELS what we are told in 2Th1:8 "[with His MIGHTY angels, in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON them that..." (SAME persons that 2Th2:10-12 speak of... and same time-period! "... SO THAT they should BELIEVE the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"... that's much longer than a mere split-second MOMENT that "God SHALL SEND TO THEM strong delusion, SO THAT THEY..." [meaning, the effects of His sending that, on them, is not "mere moments" in duration... They "believe the LIE" in the TRIB YRS]);


--you would have to DISREGARD the *setting* of Rev4-5... and the fact that the phrase "WAS FOUND" (5:4) indicates that a *searching judgment* has already been concluded... (note this same word used in the latter chpts of Acts, where Paul had been brought before their [human, earthly-located] "BEMA"; and note that the "BEMA" of Christ ['judgment-seat of Christ'] pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," not to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods... not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK-age saints [same way that "RAPTURE / SNATCH [G726]" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and not other saints of OTHER time-periods, same);


--I could go on... but I know people don't like to read long posts and tend to not want to "look up" the scriptures *referenced*, if a post becomes too wordy... lol




... but this is just to ADD to what I'd already put in Post #6 (and #7, and perhaps other posts in this thread)...

...and to address your question about WHY we aren't coming "RIGHT BACK DOWN" once we are "caught UP / SNATCHED [G726]" (PRIOR TO "the DOTL" time-period ['DARK / DARKNESS' / 'IN THE NIGHT' aspect, i.e. prior to the TRIB]) which will thereafter commence to unfold upon the earth ("[ye who are troubled] REST WITH US *IN THE REVELATION OF* THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS *MIGHTY* ANGELS, IN FLAMING FIRE INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." ... similar wording to the language used in Lam2:3-4 (recall WHY, in Lam)... [*think: 7 Trumpets / 7 Vials... plus the rest of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) that we commonly call the "7 year Trib" ]).






Any questions regarding any of this?

 

[TMS]

So when the mark of the beast is instituted and enforced, you'll take it since you won't think there won't be any serious eternal consequences for it?


🐳

No.
I do believe there is serious consequences and have not said otherwise. the mark of the beast will mean you are accepting Satan over God.

I do not want to worship the beast or receive his mark.

Rev 14:9-10
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: