The rapture? The comimg of Christ.
- Thread starter TMS
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Just destroys pre trib. Someone already pointed this out.
Matthew 13:28-30
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:39
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Matthew 13:28-30
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matthew 13:39
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
-
3
- Show all
^ @Saul-to-Paul , "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (Matt13) is FOLLOWED by "the age [singular] to come" that Jesus had ALREADY spoken of in the previous chpt (12:32), which His disciples UNDERSTOOD correctly... to be what we now call "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age" (Matt8:11 / Lk12:36-37,38,40 ALSO spoke of this very thing [and THEIR parallel passages]).
Re: the rest of that post you are referencing (about the "WHEAT" harvest [Matt13]), I addressed that issue in Post #6 (and Post #7) -
https://christianchat.com/threads/the-rapture-the-comimg-of-christ.216650/post-5377413
There is no way that this "destroys pre trib," as you suggest. Not at all!
Re: the rest of that post you are referencing (about the "WHEAT" harvest [Matt13]), I addressed that issue in Post #6 (and Post #7) -
https://christianchat.com/threads/the-rapture-the-comimg-of-christ.216650/post-5377413
There is no way that this "destroys pre trib," as you suggest. Not at all!
If one sees it as support for post trib then they must interpret it as a promise to protect the saints while the wicked are being burned. Which is not really true to the agricultural illustration. I assume that the wheat is gathered into barns before they ignite the bundles of tares. It is a parable to illustrate and the details are not as important as the main point which is that they are allowed to grow together and then there will be a separation. A pre trib rapture might answer to the gathering into barns of the wheat and the judgments and reaping by angels on the wicked could answer to the burning of the bundles of tares. At any rate it does not "destroy" the pre trib view since many pre trib presenters have used it as support. Its one of those that both sides use to suppor their view. Don't press too hard on the "Gather ye together FIRST the tares" without contending for the "bind them in bundles" TO burn them (but the burning does not happen until the wheat is gathered into barns. You might be interrpreting it as saying that the tares are burned first but the text does not say that. It says gather them into bundles ...in preparation to be burned, but gather the wheat into barns and then let the burning commence. At least there can be a case made for this based on what this agricultural illustration meant to those who were familiar with this farming task. A little background information about what this agricultural task looked like in that time. If it can be found that they would not burn the bundles until the wheat had been gathered out then the emphasis on "FIRST" is on binding them in bundles, and not on burning them. At any rate it does not "destory" a pretrib view.
It is a parable of an agricultural project known to the hearers. One must imagine the actual farming task first to apply the message. Don't let the wheat be harmed by the gathering of the tares until the wheat has finished growing. Then separate the two by gathering the tares into bundles to be burned and gathering the wheat into the barns. The point is that there will be a separation and the saints are not going to endure the judgments of the wrath of God upon the tares. One view is that the saints are protected while the tares are being burned but that does not seem to fit this parable which says to wait and not pull up the tares until the time, so that the wheat are not harmed. Then separte them and burn the tares. It seems to support a pretrib rapture view more than a post trib rapture view which would be contradicting the parable. Insisting that the message is "Do not pull up the tares lest the wheat be harmed" and 'Pull up the tares while the wheat are still there and some how they wont be harmed, even though he just said not to do that" kind of interpretation. If anything this parable dismisses the "Saints will go through the wrath of God upon the wicked out poursing (threshings) and not be harmed but not yet be gathered into barns" Theory. Don't you think?
^ @Saul-to-Paul , "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (Matt13) is FOLLOWED by "the age [singular] to come" that Jesus had ALREADY spoken of in the previous chpt (12:32), which His disciples UNDERSTOOD correctly... to be what we now call "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age" (Matt8:11 / Lk12:36-37,38,40 ALSO spoke of this very thing [and THEIR parallel passages]).
Re: the rest of that post you are referencing (about the "WHEAT" harvest [Matt13]), I addressed that issue in Post #6 (and Post #7) -
https://christianchat.com/threads/the-rapture-the-comimg-of-christ.216650/post-5377413
There is no way that this "destroys pre trib," as you suggest. Not at all!
Re: the rest of that post you are referencing (about the "WHEAT" harvest [Matt13]), I addressed that issue in Post #6 (and Post #7) -
https://christianchat.com/threads/the-rapture-the-comimg-of-christ.216650/post-5377413
There is no way that this "destroys pre trib," as you suggest. Not at all!
There may well be a 7 year time of trouble but what you are doing is making these verses fit your interpretation.
When did the sacrifices cease? When did the offering of lambs become obsolete?
At the cross. They were made desolate by the real deal. Jesus is the sacrifice we need to look to. The cerimonial offerings all pointed to Jesus.
Dan 9: 27
Right in the middle of the 70th week Jesus died and brought all of the sacrifices to an end.
The 3 and a half years and 42 months, and times time and dividing of time are the same time period in prophecy.
That time has come and gone.....
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
It is a known truth that a day = a year in bible prophecy. It is applied to the 70 week prophecy, and when you apply it to the 3and a half year prophecy it = 1260 years.
Be consistent. Half a week = 3.5 years
Some 3.5 years = 1260 years
A day for a year.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
It is easy to find a time in history when the church of God, was persecuted and went to the mountains to hide for 1260 years. It's called the dark ages. Millions of believers were killed because they didn't follow the blasphemies of catholicism.
538-1798.....1260 years.
Pope Vigilius is the first pope with unquestioned loyalty to Justinian and his new code, which in 538 becomes meaningfully effective for the first time. Church controlled the state.
There is a clear and parallel symmetry in the 1,260-year period starting with a pope being exiled and replaced with one hand-picked by the emperor under the auspices of a new legal code (the Justinian Code—one that elevates the Roman church to official, legal priority), and ending with a pope being exiled by an emperor and a religious code replaced by a secular rule (the Napoleonic Code, a secular system that rejects the idea of a special place for the church).
Napoleon took the pope captive in 1798. And the church lost its authoritative power over most people.
3.5 years have been prophesied and have happened.
When did the sacrifices cease? When did the offering of lambs become obsolete?
At the cross. They were made desolate by the real deal. Jesus is the sacrifice we need to look to. The cerimonial offerings all pointed to Jesus.
Dan 9: 27
Right in the middle of the 70th week Jesus died and brought all of the sacrifices to an end.
The 3 and a half years and 42 months, and times time and dividing of time are the same time period in prophecy.
That time has come and gone.....
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
It is a known truth that a day = a year in bible prophecy. It is applied to the 70 week prophecy, and when you apply it to the 3and a half year prophecy it = 1260 years.
Be consistent. Half a week = 3.5 years
Some 3.5 years = 1260 years
A day for a year.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
It is easy to find a time in history when the church of God, was persecuted and went to the mountains to hide for 1260 years. It's called the dark ages. Millions of believers were killed because they didn't follow the blasphemies of catholicism.
538-1798.....1260 years.
Pope Vigilius is the first pope with unquestioned loyalty to Justinian and his new code, which in 538 becomes meaningfully effective for the first time. Church controlled the state.
There is a clear and parallel symmetry in the 1,260-year period starting with a pope being exiled and replaced with one hand-picked by the emperor under the auspices of a new legal code (the Justinian Code—one that elevates the Roman church to official, legal priority), and ending with a pope being exiled by an emperor and a religious code replaced by a secular rule (the Napoleonic Code, a secular system that rejects the idea of a special place for the church).
Napoleon took the pope captive in 1798. And the church lost its authoritative power over most people.
3.5 years have been prophesied and have happened.
You ask good and thoughtful questions, as always, GaryA.
I'll do my best to answer your concern (though I have indeed posted about this in the past).
First off, consider the following verses:
Exo 23:19
The first [H7225 (note what I said earlier!)] of the firstfruits [H1061] of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Exo 34:26
The first [H7225 (again, note what I said earlier)] of the firstfruits [H1061] of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
____________
You say, "No one is taken to heaven to wait for events on earth to unfold before returning to earth..." (note: I wouldn't describe it as "to wait"... as though simply "twiddling [our] thumbs" LOL). I've addressed this in many ways, in many past posts... here is a brief sampling:
--you would have to DISREGARD the fact that the 1Th4:17 passage is IN THE SAME CONTEXT as Paul's words in 1Th3:13 ("in the presence [G1715] of the God and Father of us, in ______");
--you would have to DISREGARD the fact that the promise to "SHALL BE clothed in LEUKOS HIMATION [G3022 G2440]" (chpt 3, in the "things WHICH ARE" section)... is shown to have taken place in the wording of "HAVING BEEN CLOTHED in leukos himation [G3022 G2440]" (in the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" section) in 4:4;
--you would have to DISREGARD the fact that Paul said he would be awarded a "CROWN [/ stephanos / stephanon]"... "IN THAT DAY" (not the day of his death), and "not to [him] only"... and that in chpt 4 we see the ALREADY-AWARDED "crowns / stephanous" on their heads, as they are shown sitting on "thrones" (note: 1Cor6:3[,14] states, "know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS"... and note the same "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" wording used in Rom16:20 "... shall crush Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" [this hasn't taken place yet]... and same phrase used in Lk18:8, "avenge *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... which "avenge" word I've pointed out PARALLELS what we are told in 2Th1:8 "[with His MIGHTY angels, in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON them that..." (SAME persons that 2Th2:10-12 speak of... and same time-period! "... SO THAT they should BELIEVE the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"... that's much longer than a mere split-second MOMENT that "God SHALL SEND TO THEM strong delusion, SO THAT THEY..." [meaning, the effects of His sending that, on them, is not "mere moments" in duration... They "believe the LIE" in the TRIB YRS]);
--you would have to DISREGARD the *setting* of Rev4-5... and the fact that the phrase "WAS FOUND" (5:4) indicates that a *searching judgment* has already been concluded... (note this same word used in the latter chpts of Acts, where Paul had been brought before their [human, earthly-located] "BEMA"; and note that the "BEMA" of Christ ['judgment-seat of Christ'] pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," not to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods... not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK-age saints [same way that "RAPTURE / SNATCH [G726]" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and not other saints of OTHER time-periods, same);
--I could go on... but I know people don't like to read long posts and tend to not want to "look up" the scriptures *referenced*, if a post becomes too wordy... lol
... but this is just to ADD to what I'd already put in Post #6 (and #7, and perhaps other posts in this thread)...
...and to address your question about WHY we aren't coming "RIGHT BACK DOWN" once we are "caught UP / SNATCHED [G726]" (PRIOR TO "the DOTL" time-period ['DARK / DARKNESS' / 'IN THE NIGHT' aspect, i.e. prior to the TRIB]) which will thereafter commence to unfold upon the earth ("[ye who are troubled] REST WITH US *IN THE REVELATION OF* THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS *MIGHTY* ANGELS, IN FLAMING FIRE INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." ... similar wording to the language used in Lam2:3-4 (recall WHY, in Lam)... [*think: 7 Trumpets / 7 Vials... plus the rest of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) that we commonly call the "7 year Trib" ]).
Any questions regarding any of this?
I'll do my best to answer your concern (though I have indeed posted about this in the past).
First off, consider the following verses:
Exo 23:19
The first [H7225 (note what I said earlier!)] of the firstfruits [H1061] of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
Exo 34:26
The first [H7225 (again, note what I said earlier)] of the firstfruits [H1061] of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
____________
You say, "No one is taken to heaven to wait for events on earth to unfold before returning to earth..." (note: I wouldn't describe it as "to wait"... as though simply "twiddling [our] thumbs" LOL). I've addressed this in many ways, in many past posts... here is a brief sampling:
--you would have to DISREGARD the fact that the 1Th4:17 passage is IN THE SAME CONTEXT as Paul's words in 1Th3:13 ("in the presence [G1715] of the God and Father of us, in ______");
--you would have to DISREGARD the fact that the promise to "SHALL BE clothed in LEUKOS HIMATION [G3022 G2440]" (chpt 3, in the "things WHICH ARE" section)... is shown to have taken place in the wording of "HAVING BEEN CLOTHED in leukos himation [G3022 G2440]" (in the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" section) in 4:4;
--you would have to DISREGARD the fact that Paul said he would be awarded a "CROWN [/ stephanos / stephanon]"... "IN THAT DAY" (not the day of his death), and "not to [him] only"... and that in chpt 4 we see the ALREADY-AWARDED "crowns / stephanous" on their heads, as they are shown sitting on "thrones" (note: 1Cor6:3[,14] states, "know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS"... and note the same "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" wording used in Rom16:20 "... shall crush Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" [this hasn't taken place yet]... and same phrase used in Lk18:8, "avenge *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"... which "avenge" word I've pointed out PARALLELS what we are told in 2Th1:8 "[with His MIGHTY angels, in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON them that..." (SAME persons that 2Th2:10-12 speak of... and same time-period! "... SO THAT they should BELIEVE the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"... that's much longer than a mere split-second MOMENT that "God SHALL SEND TO THEM strong delusion, SO THAT THEY..." [meaning, the effects of His sending that, on them, is not "mere moments" in duration... They "believe the LIE" in the TRIB YRS]);
--you would have to DISREGARD the *setting* of Rev4-5... and the fact that the phrase "WAS FOUND" (5:4) indicates that a *searching judgment* has already been concluded... (note this same word used in the latter chpts of Acts, where Paul had been brought before their [human, earthly-located] "BEMA"; and note that the "BEMA" of Christ ['judgment-seat of Christ'] pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," not to all other saints of all OTHER time-periods... not to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to MK-age saints [same way that "RAPTURE / SNATCH [G726]" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" and not other saints of OTHER time-periods, same);
--I could go on... but I know people don't like to read long posts and tend to not want to "look up" the scriptures *referenced*, if a post becomes too wordy... lol
... but this is just to ADD to what I'd already put in Post #6 (and #7, and perhaps other posts in this thread)...
...and to address your question about WHY we aren't coming "RIGHT BACK DOWN" once we are "caught UP / SNATCHED [G726]" (PRIOR TO "the DOTL" time-period ['DARK / DARKNESS' / 'IN THE NIGHT' aspect, i.e. prior to the TRIB]) which will thereafter commence to unfold upon the earth ("[ye who are troubled] REST WITH US *IN THE REVELATION OF* THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS *MIGHTY* ANGELS, IN FLAMING FIRE INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON..." ... similar wording to the language used in Lam2:3-4 (recall WHY, in Lam)... [*think: 7 Trumpets / 7 Vials... plus the rest of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) that we commonly call the "7 year Trib"
]).Any questions regarding any of this?
No.
I do believe there is serious consequences and have not said otherwise. the mark of the beast will mean you are accepting Satan over God.
I do not want to worship the beast or receive his mark.
Rev 14:9-10
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
I do believe there is serious consequences and have not said otherwise. the mark of the beast will mean you are accepting Satan over God.
I do not want to worship the beast or receive his mark.
Rev 14:9-10
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Because there is no gap in the 70 week prophecy and the harvest is the end of the world. The antichrist and false prophet are present before the end of the world.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Deception isn't very effective if everyone knows how they are being deceived.
When Jesus comes it will all be over.
No second chance. Probation has closed.
The wicked will not live again until the second resurrection.
We will go through the Tribulation, trusting in God's protection.
Like Noah that went through the flood safe in the ark.
What takes more faith? Going through the trials or escaping the trials.
Jesus said watch and be ready.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
1Pe 1:4-7
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
The Tribulation will test our faith. But if your taken before this you don't need much faith.
And how do you explain Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
looking for the glorious appearing of Jesus.
no secret event.
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Deception isn't very effective if everyone knows how they are being deceived.
When Jesus comes it will all be over.
No second chance. Probation has closed.
The wicked will not live again until the second resurrection.
We will go through the Tribulation, trusting in God's protection.
Like Noah that went through the flood safe in the ark.
What takes more faith? Going through the trials or escaping the trials.
Jesus said watch and be ready.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
1Pe 1:4-7
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
The Tribulation will test our faith. But if your taken before this you don't need much faith.
And how do you explain Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
looking for the glorious appearing of Jesus.
no secret event.