The Mark of the Beast

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2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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#41
so sad but that's right

You can only share what the Bible says only so much to people who refuse to listen and take to heart what the Bible actually warns. Even Jesus said in the Bible:

Matthew 7:6Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

That's why I don't bother warning dogs and pigs after I've warned them only so much. :)


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awelight

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#44
Yeah, about that, believing in pre-trib won't change God's mind. He wrote in the Bible that His Son will pick us up AFTER the great tribulation and said that we should endure to the end - that means to build up our faith in Him so that we can withstand everything that will come against us.

If you build up your faith to endure to the end, you can continue to hope for the fantasy of pre-trib, but also be ready for the great tribulation that is sure to come.


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I am sorry you don't see this teaching in the Bible. However, I am not going to debate that on this thread. I will leave that subject with a final statement from our Lord that you might consider pondering:

Rev_3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the time (Greek - Hour, day, time, season) of trial (Greek - Trial, testing or adversity) that which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 

awelight

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#45
Bear in mind that these are two completely distinct Greek words (translated 'mark' in English):

Rev13:16 has the word "G5480 - charagma " - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/13/16/t_concif_1180016

( G5480 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g5480/kjv/tr/0-1/ );



... whereas Rom16:17 (and Phil3:17) has the word "G4648 - skopein " - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rom/16/17/ss1/t_concif_1062017

( G4648 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4648/kjv/tr/0-1/ )




... and yes, the latter of these two (I've listed here) does carry the meaning that you spoke of, there.


Check out how the other word is used though (from the second link, at top):

"[G5480] χάραγμα cháragma, khar'-ag-mah; from the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude), or scupltured figure (statue):—graven, mark."
I appreciate your reply. Actually made me sit back and think about the whole thing over again.

It is difficult to think that the "mark" (charagma), could be in the figurative sense because there are no good examples of this Greek word being used in this fashion. So yes, the "mark" could be some kind of physical indicator. Perhaps an ID card. After all the Soviets were all card carrying communists.

However, I think the base of this idea - the mark - should be seen as figurative. Just as the "seal" of believers is figurative. I am driven to this thought also by what is said in verse 20 of Revelation 19 "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burns with brimstone:" and verse 4 of Revelation 20 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

We know that one being "deceived" and "worshipping", (The reverse of verse 4), is a state of mind and heart. No mark or ID could cause one to be deceived or to worship something that they do not believe in. Therefore, the real issue here, is being deceived, in such away, as to believe in that which is false. One who is sealed for Christ cannot throw away their position in Christ because of a physical mark that would allow trade or purchases.

Thankfully, a true believer does not have to worry about these things because Scripture says it can not happen.

Mat 24:21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. The construction of the sentence, is understood, as NOT possible.
 

Stokie

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#46
The tribulation period is known as the time of Jacob’s trouble ( Jacob being Israel). The purpose of the tribulation is to bring Israel to its knees before Jesus and make them realise their Messiah had already been.

When Jesus returns to save them we (the church) are with Him and we will have been with Him through the whole trib period, having a great time at the wedding.

I would urge anyone who’s in doubt about a pre trib rapture to grab your Bible and watch a documentary called ‘Before The Wrath’. Absolutely mind blowing stuff about Jesus and His bride and the similarities with a true Galilean wedding. It really is quite staggering.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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#47
I am sorry you don't see this teaching in the Bible. However, I am not going to debate that on this thread. I will leave that subject with a final statement from our Lord that you might consider pondering:

Rev_3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the time (Greek - Hour, day, time, season) of trial (Greek - Trial, testing or adversity) that which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
I agree with you, here. Right on! (y)
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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#48
I am sorry you don't see this teaching in the Bible. However, I am not going to debate that on this thread. I will leave that subject with a final statement from our Lord that you might consider pondering:

Rev_3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the time (Greek - Hour, day, time, season) of trial (Greek - Trial, testing or adversity) that which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

God gave that promise to the church at Philadelphia. Did you ever check to see if God removed them physically when persecution came? I did. God NEVER physically moved them out of there. As a matter of fact, ELEVEN of them ended up being martyred along with Polycarp.

So to keep them from the time of trial wasn't to remove them physically, but to keep them strong with their faith intact through the persecution.


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daisyseesthesun

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#49

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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#50
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13

Are we speaking about this verse?

So what are you going to do since you don't believe what the Lord Jesus commands here? Are you going to disobey the Lord and take the mark of the beast to avoid being hated and persecuted by the rest of the world? So you can keep buying and selling? So that the antichrist doesn't kill you?

If you refuse to endure to the end, you will end up taking the mark. This will show that you never had a saving faith in the Lord. That you don't believe He can keep you strong when persecuted. You don't believe He can provide for you when everything gets taken away from you when you reject the mark. You don't believe you'll be kept safe in death when martyred.

That's why the warning is so clear cut that those who take the mark will end up in hell, that those who claim to be Christian but still take the mark are actually not saved. At this point, it doesn't matter whether one believes that such a Christian was never saved or that they were but have now left God. Either way, they will show a lack of saving faith and will face the severe eternal consequences of hell.

Go ahead and continue to be a dog and a pig. This message will reach the Christians who will choose God and endure to the end.


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awelight

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#51
God gave that promise to the church at Philadelphia. Did you ever check to see if God removed them physically when persecution came? I did. God NEVER physically moved them out of there. As a matter of fact, ELEVEN of them ended up being martyred along with Polycarp.

So to keep them from the time of trial wasn't to remove them physically, but to keep them strong with their faith intact through the persecution.


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I don't understand why you are limiting the promise of Rev. 3:10 to ONLY the church in Philadelphia. This promise from our Lord is not for their immediate persecution troubles in Philadelphia but rather FAR into the future. All seven of these letters, (God's number of completion), represent all of the churches throughout the ages.

How do we know this promise is future? Because the context proves this. Look at the last part of verse 10 carefully, it indicates the time. ".. which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Nothing yet, in history, has come upon the whole world to test those that live upon it. Only the Great Tribulation period would fit this statement.

Additionally, in some of the other church letters of Revelation, we see other future promises that have nothing to do with their time period. Examples:
1) Rev. 2:10 - I will give thee the crown of life. (Future for all believers)
2) Rev. 2:11 - He.. shall not be hurt of the second death. (Future for all believers)
3) Rev. 2:17 - to him will I give of the hidden manna (Future for all believers)
4) Rev. 2:17 - I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knows but he that receives it. (Future for all believers)
5) Rev. 2:26 - he that keeps my works unto the end, I shall give to him authority over the nations: (Future for all believers)
6) Rev. 2:28 - I will give him the morning star. (Future for all believers)
7) Rev. 3:5 - He.. shall thus be arrayed in white garments (Future for all believers)
8) Rev.3:5 - I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, (Future for all believers)
9) Rev. 3:5 - I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (Future for all believers)
10) Rev. 3:9 - I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (Future for all believers)
11) Rev. 3:10 - I also will keep thee from the time of trial, that time which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Future for all believers)
12 Rev. 3:12 - I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God (Future for all believers)
13) Rev. 3:12 - I will write upon him the name of my God (Future for all believers)
14) Rev. 3:12 - the name of the city of my God (Future of all believers)
15) Rev. 3:12 - and mine own new name. (Future for all believers)
16) Rev. 3:21- I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne. (Future for all believers)
NOTE: Believers mentioned herein, are believers that constitute the church that Christ is building.

None of these 16 promises were promised in the lifetime of the immediate recipients. They were given as hopes towards the future.

That fact that many died in the early days of the church does not mean that the Lord will not keep His church, in the future, before the days of great tribulation, from those days. God has a purpose in all things and they are not open to question by His creation.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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#52
I don't understand why you are limiting the promise of Rev. 3:10 to ONLY the church in Philadelphia. This promise from our Lord is not for their immediate persecution troubles in Philadelphia but rather FAR into the future.
If the church at Philadelphia wasn't physically spared from persecution, that means you won't be either.

If it's just for the future church, then those promises wouldn't have been given to the individual churches back then by name.

No one is questioning God's decisions and work. Our problem is that a lot of people are reading into it things they wish would happen, but that doesn't change God's mind. There is no pre-trib rapture. All Christians of that time will go through it. We all need to spiritually prepare for that if it's in our lifetime.


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GWH

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Oct 19, 2024
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#53
How do you receive this mark in your forehead and hands? Through lack of knowledge and deception. II Thes 2:3-4 and Rev 12:7-9 tell us that Satan will be cast out of heaven to earth and will come claiming to be God and will deceive the people into worshipping him. Many are not aware that Satan comes first before Jesus and will show great signs and wonders to deceive them. They will think he is God and receive his mark of deception in their forehead (brain) because they think he is God and will worship him. They will also work for his fake ministry to bring in converts thus receiving the mark in their hands which is symbolic of working for his ministry. Mark 13:9-11 tells us that God's elect will be delivered up before Satan to testify against him and expose his lies with the Holy Spirit speaking through them. When people hear the truth of this testimony, many will be ashamed that they were deceived.
Currently, it appears that the beast meets annually in Devos Switzerland, the wonders will be by means of AI, and the mark will be implanted chips.
 

awelight

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#54
If the church at Philadelphia wasn't physically spared from persecution, that means you won't be either.

If it's just for the future church, then those promises wouldn't have been given to the individual churches back then by name.

No one is questioning God's decisions and work. Our problem is that a lot of people are reading into it things they wish would happen, but that doesn't change God's mind. There is no pre-trib rapture. All Christians of that time will go through it. We all need to spiritually prepare for that if it's in our lifetime.


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This is my last comment upon the subject because my goal is to not alter the way you see things but to give clear meaning to this verse.

I fear you are letting your bias keep you from seeing the proper understanding of Revelation 3:10. Let me explain why I say this.
Rev 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the time of trial, that time which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

PLEASE, look through any bias you might have at this moment. Whether one believes in a Rapture or does not. What is this verse clearly saying?

The part of the verse highlighted in red is where I want to concentrate. Note, even in English, this verse says "..keep the from...". It does not say: "Keep you in" or "Keep you safe in" or "Protect you in". It states that "I" (The Lord), "shall" (Future tense in the Greek), "keep you" (Believers), "from" that which is coming.

Now let's concentrate on the word translated "FROM". From is the translation of the Greek word ἐκ (ek). The meaning of the Greek word is always understood as: "out of" or "out from". That's it. Plain and simple.

So now take your pick.. is this verse better understood as stating: "I shall keep you out of the time of trial" or "I shall keep you out from the time of trial"? In either case, the verse clearly states that the ones being discussed, will be kept out of this time period; not kept safe in this time period.

Now if we are being true to the teaching of Scripture, this should raise questions for us and we must now try to figure out how our Lord will keep us "out of" this time which is to come and why is He giving us this promise?

God be with you.
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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#55
This is my last comment upon the subject because my goal is to not alter the way you see things but to give clear meaning to this verse.

I fear you are letting your bias keep you from seeing the proper understanding of Revelation 3:10. Let me explain why I say this.
Rev 3:10 Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the time of trial, that time which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

PLEASE, look through any bias you might have at this moment. Whether one believes in a Rapture or does not. What is this verse clearly saying?

The part of the verse highlighted in red is where I want to concentrate. Note, even in English, this verse says "..keep the from...". It does not say: "Keep you in" or "Keep you safe in" or "Protect you in". It states that "I" (The Lord), "shall" (Future tense in the Greek), "keep you" (Believers), "from" that which is coming.

Now let's concentrate on the word translated "FROM". From is the translation of the Greek word ἐκ (ek). The meaning of the Greek word is always understood as: "out of" or "out from". That's it. Plain and simple.

So now take your pick.. is this verse better understood as stating: "I shall keep you out of the time of trial" or "I shall keep you out from the time of trial"? In either case, the verse clearly states that the ones being discussed, will be kept out of this time period; not kept safe in this time period.

Now if we are being true to the teaching of Scripture, this should raise questions for us and we must now try to figure out how our Lord will keep us "out of" this time which is to come and why is He giving us this promise?

God be with you.

There's no bias on my end. I checked to see if the church at Philadelphia had been physically removed by God from persecution. God didn't do that. Eleven of them got martyred. So when God gave them the promise that He would keep them from the time of trial, He meant that He would protect their FAITH - not their physical bodies. So God kept His promise. None of the 11 fell away from God. They went through with their martyrdom.

So God is not talking about physical bodies that He would protect when He gave them that promise. He is talking about protecting our FAITH.


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GWH

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#57
There's no bias on my end. I checked to see if the church at Philadelphia had been physically removed by God from persecution. God didn't do that. Eleven of them got martyred. So when God gave them the promise that He would keep them from the time of trial, He meant that He would protect their FAITH - not their physical bodies. So God kept His promise. None of the 11 fell away from God. They went through with their martyrdom.

So God is not talking about physical bodies that He would protect when He gave them that promise. He is talking about protecting our FAITH.


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As you conclude the discussion I would like to point out that the ultimate protection is from hell to/in heaven. Yay!
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

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#58
As you conclude the discussion I would like to point out that the ultimate protection is from hell to/in heaven. Yay!

I think I agree with you. Do you mean when a Christian refuses the mark and is executed and dies, going home to the Lord? If so, then yes, i agree! They actually get to rest with God and sit out the rest of the great tribulation.

So death is not the worst thing to happen to Christians. As a matter of fact, the ones who take the mark will be so miserable that they're going to WISH they can die. But God isn't going to let them.


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Feb 18, 2019
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#59
Spirit will be aware mark of the Beast comes you won't be able to tricked into this without knowing what it is first
 

Publican

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#60
Spirit will be aware mark of the Beast comes you won't be able to tricked into this without knowing what it is first
Interesting. Anyone check this out with Eve? She may have a different take.