Various Moral Issues

[seoulsearch]

That strikes me as funny. Well, there is a certain ring to the sound of "convicted murderer" that is rather repellent...
That, and rapist, or anything like it really. I don't think I could ever trust or be comfortable around such a person.

The most tragic thing I discovered while writing to/visiting inmates was some of the nuances between people's stories. I never went digging for specifics unless they brought up the subject first, because I wanted to try to respect them as people and not a case number.

One had killed an abusive parental figure; the other killed a coach who had offered him a ride home after a school event but took him elsewhere for intended nefarious purposes. Both were teens at the time. Both were sentenced as convicted murderers and given Life Without Parole.

I don't know what the right answers are in those situations. I do believe though that the first person, though 19 at the time of his crime (and about 33 when I was writing him,) had become someone who could not be let back into society. He came from an unforgiving, abusive and violent background, and that's all he knew to dish out to other people. He had a long prison history of stabbing and attempting to kill other inmates, though sometimes it was for his own protection.

The second -- I honestly don't know.

I would often put their letters on the table next to my Bible and pray about how I should answer.

I'm grateful because I learned so much during that time. Sometimes wish I could start up again, but do not feel I have God's permission. I have looked up info on local prison ministries but never found one that I was interested in because it was all one-sided preaching to the inmates.

One-way ministries can be wonderful, but have never been my thing. I need to have two-way conversations with the people who are being ministered to so I can understand where they're coming from.

 

[Magenta]

Very interesting about Angola Prison -- thanks very much for sharing what you found!

And thank you for your kind words. It was all God, and there is one former inmate I keep in touch with. God has completely transformed his life. I have nothing but respect for the work WillieT did, but I'm sure he'd say this particular person whom I consider a good friend would have been like all the rest and would never change -- and I certainly understand that.

But this person was different from the start, always seeking employment and educational programs even within the prison. The other inmates made fun of him while he hauled his books out to the yard to study. But it has more than paid off.

A few years after he got out, I went to visit him and his family. One of the proudest moments of my life was when I got to meet some of the employees and directors of the programs that had helped him get back on his feet, and they all told me what an exceptional person he was. I'll probably be visiting his family again next year.

I have known two people who allowed God to overhaul their lives from the ground up, so I'm happy to report that yes, there ARE a few exceptions out there, praise the Lord!

I would still probably be doing that kind of work -- I actually miss it -- but felt God told me to stop for the sake of my safety.

Thank you again for your kindness!

Ah, Seoul, my kindness, you say? No, it is your kindness in the spotlight now, you must endure this little bit of limelight, for you deserve it even if all glory goes to God... and what an amazing element it adds to your testimony to have been led and been of service in such a way for such exceptional people who benefited from your willingness to be there for them, and still show up for them, and their families, who must also have some sense of the goodness and greatness of God to have worked such a miraculous change in people/their loved ones who could have easily gone another direction. I did just see your next post above mine now and do realize there are almost always extenuating circumstances, and God does know all the ins and outs and whys and wherefores of our lives better than we or anybody else does... and in some of those cases at least I think my feelings would be different... but generally I think at my age now especially and having become more cynical and/or jaded with time and the human condition, seeing that there really are very evil people in the world... it certainly contributes to my feeling of, no, I could not do now what you did then. And I am glad you are listening and have stopped for your own safety's sake...

 

[seoulsearch]

Ah, Seoul, my kindness, you say? No, it is your kindness in the spotlight now, you must endure this little bit of limelight, for you deserve it even if all glory goes to God... and what an amazing element it adds to your testimony to have been led and been of service in such a way for such exceptional people who benefited from your willingness to be there for them, and still show up for them, and their families, who must also have some sense of the goodness and greatness of God to have worked such a miraculous change in people/their loved ones who could have easily gone another direction. I did just see your next post above mine now and do realize there are almost always extenuating circumstances, and God does know all the ins and outs and whys and wherefores of our lives better than we or anybody else does... and in some of those cases at least I think my feelings would be different... but generally I think at my age now especially and having become more cynical and/or jaded with time and the human condition, seeing that there really are very evil people in the world... it certainly contributes to my feeling of, no, I could not do now what you did then. And I am glad you are listening and have stopped for your own safety's sake...

I have to admit to feeling slightly embarrassed in an, "Aw, shucks..." kind of way. Thank you so much.

I think most of it stems from being adopted, having wonderful Christian parents I adore, and feeling like I've been given so much that I've always felt an inner need to give back, especially to those who are lacking what I had. In some, perhaps most cases, I realize nothing might change -- but the most valuable thing I found was that what I learned from someone unchangeable might be extremely useful when trying to encourage someone who IS willing to change.

I also learned the importance of all of us being on a journey. Maybe someone has to go through 27 steps before they come to Christ, and my job is to try to help them get from step 4 to step 5. I might not ever see any results. But if God is leading, I try to remind myself that it means something to Him, even if I've fallen through the floor in discouragement.

Funny thing -- most other women I know feel called to babies and children. I tried working in my church's children's ministries, and as I was changing diapers and reading the same nursery rhyme out loud for the about the 6th time (all in one Sunday,) I told God, "Please. Send me back to the prisons!"

An especially insightful friend of mine recently said, "You're still called to other people's babies -- it's just that God puts you in their life after they're all grown up and have made some wrong turns."

And it finally made sense to me -- God just built me for different stages of a person's life than many other ladies I know. Hopefully someday I can go back to that, or somehow use everything He's taught me to help more people.

Thank you again, Lady Magenta, for your much-appreciated kindness -- most especially because a lot of people, bless their hearts, have understandably told me I'm crazy! ❤️

Thank you so much for your encouragement. Maybe someday God will call me back to it again, but I agree with everything you said as far as always keeping our guards up in order to protect our safety.

 

[enril]

I suggest we begin discussing various moral issues in alphabetical order with Abortion.

Historically murder has been viewed as wrong and has been defined as unwarranted killing of a post-birth human being. In my own history, I grew up ignorant of fetal development and naively thought that "pro-choice" sounded like a good option, but then I began to think:

On one side of the debate are those who believe that pregnant women have the right to kill their fetuses until birth (“birthists”). On the opposite side of the issue are those who believe that fetuses have the right to live from conception (“conceptionists”).

The Bible does not specifically address this question, although two passages (EX 21:22-25 & LK 1:41-44) seem to suggest that an unborn baby should be considered a person at least by the time of quickening.

However, if a person studies fetal development, at some point he/she will probably contemplate two pictures: one of a seven-month-old fetus in the womb, and one of a seven-month-old premature but viable baby outside the womb.

This should lead one to understand that geographical location is not a valid basis for defining personhood. There is no qualitative change that occurs at birth, merely a difference in the mode of breathing and feeding.

And so a person will be led to consider the crucial question: when does a developing fetus become a human person with the God-given right to civil life so that to kill it is murder and warrants capital punishment?

i would like to say that i heard that it was common practice for the israelites to toss unwanted children into a field for the birds.

 

[GWH]

I do understand what you're saying. But seeing as you seem to be especially interested in this, I'd like to ask you again, what would the punishment be for fathers?

I already gave an example from my own life if my own birth father had wanted to abort me.

I'm also asking because I went to a Lutheran school -- and, real-life story -- a couple, as in, both the girl AND the guy -- were caught skipping school after getting an abortion. This was reported to the entire student body, and since it was their senior year, they were not allowed to walk at graduation. They also had to write a letter apologizing to everyone at the school.

What do you believe their punishment should have been for each of them, since obviously both were compliant with the murder?

I've also worked with at least 2 young women who had abortions as well -- one who was very open about it because she nearly, and the other was weeping loudly in the restroom and I asked her what was wrong. Both had made this decision in agreement with the fathers.

If these women were to be punished for murder, the fathers should get the same punishments, no?

What would those be?

Also to Susanna, Tall_Timbers, Magenta, daisyseesthesun and Mem,

I introduced this topic because I hope to help "open the eyes of the blind" (IS 42:7) by sharing my own history. I knew very little about fetal development when I was in my twenties, and "pro-choice" sounded like a good option so I was a "birthist", but when I was confronted by pictures of a seven-month-old fetus in the womb and a seven-month-old premature but viable baby outside the womb, I realized that geographical location is not a valid basis for defining personhood because there is no qualitative change that occurs at birth, merely a difference in the mode of breathing and feeding.

Thus, I was led to consider the crucial question: when does a developing fetus become a human person with the God-given right to civil life so that to kill it is murder and warrants punishment? The conceptionist viewpoint is certainly right that a qualitative change occurs when the chromosomes in the egg and sperm are united, and learning about fetal development should enable birthists to realize that the advent of personhood definitely occurs by the seventh month or viability, when a premature baby is frequently able to survive.

Are there any changes between conception and viability that might reasonably/logically be viewed as indicative of the beginning of personality? There is one possibility: the counterpart of the basis doctors use for determining when an adult person no longer is alive. This basis is brain death or the absence of certain brain wave activity detected by an electroencephalo-gram (EEG). We might call this stage “sentience”, referring to the level of brain activity which indicates the fetus has brain life and is therefore a person, who should be granted the civil right to life. If our best definition of sentient death is the cessation of these brain waves, then it is logical and consistent to view sentient life as beginning at least when these brain waves are detectable. Thus, I think every open-minded and truth-seeking person should agree that the fetus becomes sentient and a legal person at least by that stage of development.

This is only a partial solution, but it is a big step in the right direction toward no abortion except in order to save the life of the mother. It recognizes that a gray area still exists from conception until sentience, so people may still reasonably disagree about the status of the fetus during this period, which may change as science improves. This view permits most forms of birth control. Implementing this solution requires educating every post-pubescent person about fetal development until society develops a new consensus that when a fetus becomes sentient, abortion is a type of murder and should be punished appropriately.

Love in Christ, GWH

 

[seoulsearch]

Also to Susanna, Tall_Timbers, Magenta, daisyseesthesun and Mem,

I introduced this topic because I hope to help "open the eyes of the blind" (IS 42:7) by sharing my own history. I knew very little about fetal development when I was in my twenties, and "pro-choice" sounded like a good option so I was a "birthist", but when I was confronted by pictures of a seven-month-old fetus in the womb and a seven-month-old premature but viable baby outside the womb, I realized that geographical location is not a valid basis for defining personhood because there is no qualitative change that occurs at birth, merely a difference in the mode of breathing and feeding.

Thus, I was led to consider the crucial question: when does a developing fetus become a human person with the God-given right to civil life so that to kill it is murder and warrants punishment? The conceptionist viewpoint is certainly right that a qualitative change occurs when the chromosomes in the egg and sperm are united, and learning about fetal development should enable birthists to realize that the advent of personhood definitely occurs by the seventh month or viability, when a premature baby is frequently able to survive.

Are there any changes between conception and viability that might reasonably/logically be viewed as indicative of the beginning of personality? There is one possibility: the counterpart of the basis doctors use for determining when an adult person no longer is alive. This basis is brain death or the absence of certain brain wave activity detected by an electroencephalo-gram (EEG). We might call this stage “sentience”, referring to the level of brain activity which indicates the fetus has brain life and is therefore a person, who should be granted the civil right to life. If our best definition of sentient death is the cessation of these brain waves, then it is logical and consistent to view sentient life as beginning at least when these brain waves are detectable. Thus, I think every open-minded and truth-seeking person should agree that the fetus becomes sentient and a legal person at least by that stage of development.

This is only a partial solution, but it is a big step in the right direction toward no abortion except in order to save the life of the mother. It recognizes that a gray area still exists from conception until sentience, so people may still reasonably disagree about the status of the fetus during this period, which may change as science improves. This view permits most forms of birth control. Implementing this solution requires educating every post-pubescent person about fetal development until society develops a new consensus that when a fetus becomes sentient, abortion is a type of murder and should be punished appropriately.

Love in Christ, GWH

Thanks for taking the time to write out this explanation...

It didn't answer a single one of the questions I asked you, but I do appreciate you sharing your perspective.

I knew you'd said you'd wanted to have discussions about the topics you brought up.

I was just wondering what the format of the "discussion" was going to be -- and if you would answer our questions back when we asked.

I guess the rules are, you are allowed ask us questions, but we can't ask you in return?

I'm actually being serious and not sarcastic, as I'm used to seeing these sorts of things, and have found that in order to know how or whether to participate, you have to know if the author is just going to keep asking questions without actually answering any the readers ask in return.

 

[GWH]

Thanks for taking the time to write out this explanation...

It didn't answer a single one of the questions I asked you, but I do appreciate you sharing your perspective.

I knew you'd said you'd wanted to have discussions about the topics you brought up.

I was just wondering what the format of the "discussion" was going to be -- and if you would answer our questions back when we asked.

I guess the rules are, you are allowed ask us questions, but we can't ask you in return?

I'm actually being serious and not sarcastic, as I'm used to seeing these sorts of things, and have found that in order to know how or whether to participate, you have to know if the author is just going to keep asking questions without actually answering any the readers ask in return.

Well, I tried, but I will make a second attempt. I understand your questions to include the following:

1. What would the punishment be for fathers [who are complicit in abortion]?
It would be the same as for mothers, and would be appropriate given the consensus of society, which after becoming educated about fetal development would realize that killing a fetus after sentience is detectable is murder.

2. What do you believe their punishment should have been for each of them, since obviously both were compliant with the murder?
Well, given that most of society seem to be as ignorant of fetal development as I used to be with many approving abortion through the ninth month per Roe v. Wade, I would have to give them a pass, contingent upon them learning what I did and considering my insight involving how death is decided.

Did I do better this time? :^)

 

[tourist]

We used to have a member here who worked in the prison systems, and there are probably current members who do as well. Willie was quite the character as any who remember him could attest, especially @tourist and his lovely wife, as they knew him personally (he has since passed away, R.I.P., WillieT). Anyways, Willie would swear up and down that criminals do not rehabilitate. This may be generally speaking, as there are surely some who turn over a new leaf, but largely and unfortunately research has shown again and again that jail and prison do not deter crime/doesn’t discourage criminals from future crime. Perhaps it applies more so to people who are convicted of serious or violent crimes. Is the Norwegian system anything like restorative justice and traditional ways to reach balance and healing?

My wife and I enjoyed many breakfast and lunch dates with WillieT and his wife. Very nice couple. I was deeply sadden at his sudden passing. Absolutely, RIP Willie.

 

[tourist]

Punishment for crimes in my country is a job of the govmint, so I'll leave that issue to the govmint. I do believe abortion is murder, I'll be clear about that.

Absolutely, and especially late-term abortion, which essentially is cold-blooded murder, the premediated killing of a baby that is minutes or seconds from birth. Disgusting.

 

[seoulsearch]

Well, I tried, but I will make a second attempt. I understand your questions to include the following:

1. What would the punishment be for fathers [who are complicit in abortion]?
It would be the same as for mothers, and would be appropriate given the consensus of society, which after becoming educated about fetal development would realize that killing a fetus after sentience is detectable is murder.

2. What do you believe their punishment should have been for each of them, since obviously both were compliant with the murder?
Well, given that most of society seem to be as ignorant of fetal development as I used to be with many approving abortion through the ninth month per Roe v. Wade, I would have to give them a pass, contingent upon them learning what I did and considering my insight involving how death is decided.

Did I do better this time? :^)

Thank you for taking the time to answer -- I truly do appreciate that you took time to do so.

God bless you in your endeavor to bring awareness to the plight of unborn children.

 

[GWH]

Thank you for taking the time to answer -- I truly do appreciate that you took time to do so.

God bless you in your endeavor to bring awareness to the plight of unborn children.

You are welcome, and I hope you also affirm my attempt to bring awareness about the complexity of this issue, because it seems to me that most people's thinking about this topic falls short at two points:

1. Realizing that the crucial question is "When does a developing fetus become a human person with the God-given right to civil life so that to kill it is murder and warrants punishment?"

2. If sentient life/legal personhood should be deemed to begin at least when the relevant brain waves are detectable, then what should be the punishment for abortion/murder at this stage? If execution/life for life seems too severe, given the fact that Roe v. Wade has been the law of the land for 40 years, then what is appropriate? (Hence my answer regarding fetal education that caused my conversion :^)

 

[Eli1]

Let's go back to the letter A for Aliens or U for UFOs.
I have a topic about it here: https://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/what-are-ufos-to-you.205024/

Why are aliens such a moral issue for some Christians?
Meaning, the idea that other life might exist elsewhere seems problematic for some.

Maybe they're looking for God too and it'd be a great opportunity for us to share it with them, don't you think?

 

[hornetguy]

Yes I thought that I should've qualified that by adding, "with exception of newborn kittens..." after I had already submitted the assertion.

I've seen cats sitting about 30 feet apart, meowing at each other, then it usually degrades into growling, and either a fight or retreat.

 

[GWH]

Let's go back to the letter A for Aliens or U for UFOs.
I have a topic about it here: https://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/what-are-ufos-to-you.205024/

Why are aliens such a moral issue for some Christians?
Meaning, the idea that other life might exist elsewhere seems problematic for some.

Maybe they're looking for God too and it'd be a great opportunity for us to share it with them, don't you think?

I posted something about this somewhere recently.

I think there is no evidence that humans exist elsewhere in the universe, but in compiling a list of ways that God might yet be disproved, I hit upon idea that one way would be if human-like beings on another planet had no salvation history involving God and Christ, because the Bible teaches that God is Lord of all (PHP 2:9-11). (Caveat: If they are included in the Great Commission, their history would be like the OT.)

Over to you.

 

[daisyseesthesun]

Eli,

The main problem with that is how vast space is. One light year is an impossible distance for any human to travel. The second is astronomers would be screaming if they found a life even if it was only a single cell organism. There is nothing alive out there at least in our vicinity it obvious space wasn't made for us but for God. The third is that people that believe in "aliens" take it as a religion. Who built the prymids -- the aliens! Pretty soon they say stuff like the aliens built this world. 4. Then there's all these wild thoughts on what "aliens" look like." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him" God says look up at the stars and consider them

 

[Eli1]

Eli,

The main problem with that is how vast space is. One light year is an impossible distance any human to travel. The second is astronomers would be screaming if they found a life even if it was only a single cell organism. There is nothing alive out there at least in our vicinity it obvious wasn't made for us but God. The third is that people that believe in "aliens" take it as a religion. Who built the prymids -- the aliens! Pretty soon they say stuff like the aliens built this world. 4. Then there's all these wild thoughts on what "aliens" look like." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him"

I completely agree with the last part where people want to turn aliens into a religion, it's kinda like the pagan thread we got going, where some people have weakness against a certain action. Like celebrating a holiday or a birthday for example.
I would like to think that for most Christians you should have internal strength, peace and hope that if you're dropped into a war zone, you don't pick up a gun to kill and if you're dropped into the relight district of Amsterdam you don't engage in prostitution and if you're dropped into the vault of a bank, you don't steal the money.
But, we all have our strengths and weaknesses (myself included) so i'm not judging and everyone has different growth and peace in their journey.

In regards to aliens, space is indeed insanely and incredibly large and 'infinite'. However there may be physics that haven't been discovered by us yet, but as i mentioned in the other topic that i created about UFOs, i think that these machines that we see in our skies since the dawn of man, are artificial AI robots which are programmed to travel the vastness of space and then report home. "Home" could be gone after the amount of time spent traveling, but that's what they're programmed to do.
This is similar to our "ship" called Voyager that we sent in space with some recordings of humanity and our location. It's going to take that "ship" thousands of years to go into deep space with its current (slow) speed.
The main reason i think these are machines, is because of the amount of insane G forces they pull into mid-air which would kill any biological being.
It's be like being hit by a car or worse.

So for me, i see no problem with aliens existing and after asking them about their history, it'd be a great opportunity to tell them about ours with Christ.

 

[daisyseesthesun]

I completely agree with the last part where people want to turn aliens into a religion, it's kinda like the pagan thread we got going, where some people have weakness against a certain action. Like celebrating a holiday or a birthday for example.
I would like to think that for most Christians you should have internal strength, peace and hope that if you're dropped into a war zone, you don't pick up a gun to kill and if you're dropped into the relight district of Amsterdam you don't engage in prostitution and if you're dropped into the vault of a bank, you don't steal the money.
But, we all have our strengths and weaknesses (myself included) so i'm not judging and everyone has different growth and peace in their journey.

In regards to aliens, space is indeed insanely and incredibly large and 'infinite'. However there may be physics that haven't been discovered by us yet, but as i mentioned in the other topic that i created about UFOs, i think that these machines that we see in our skies since the dawn of man, are artificial AI robots which are programmed to travel the vastness of space and then report home. "Home" could be gone after the amount of time spent traveling, but that's what they're programmed to do.
This is similar to our "ship" called Voyager that we sent in space with some recordings of humanity and our location. It's going to take that "ship" thousands of years to go into deep space with its current (slow) speed.
The main reason i think these are machines, is because of the amount of insane G forces they pull into mid-air which would kill any biological being.
It's be like being hit by a car or worse.

So for me, i see no problem with aliens existing and after asking them about their history, it'd be a great opportunity to tell them about ours with Christ.

Yes it possible that there could be aliens. But it's more likely those super fasting moving objects are demons going "to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it," then communicating our works to God.

 

[Eli1]

Yes it possible that there could be aliens. But it's more likely those super fasting moving objects are demons going "to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it," then communicating our works to God.

This is also something that i have thought about and it's very possible.
This is also linked to many other aspects of the Bible such as Was Eden a location on Earth? Or how can we even describe a spiritual body knowing what the body of Christ did after resurrection?
Or the best one, the concept of Trinity which could involve dimensions.
All good topics which are linked to this idea of 'going in and out' of our reality. This is also why some miracles are described as 'supernatural' because they defy the laws of nature who can only be broken by God Himself and what He has allowed the Evil one to do in this realm.

 

[GWH]

This is also something that i have thought about and it's very possible.
This is also linked to many other aspects of the Bible such as Was Eden a location on Earth? Or how can we even describe a spiritual body knowing what the body of Christ did after resurrection?
Or the best one, the concept of Trinity which could involve dimensions.
All good topics which are linked to this idea of 'going in and out' of our reality. This is also why some miracles are described as 'supernatural' because they defy the laws of nature who can only be broken by God Himself and what He has allowed the Evil one to do in this realm.

To say something is "possible"--even "very"--does not mean it is probable, and how can probability be computed from one case: Earth? No other Earths have been proven to exist, but some say they probably do (meaning they possibly do, I think) since there are so many billions of star systems.

 

[Eli1]

To say something is "possible"--even "very"--does not mean it is probable, and how can probability be computed from one case: Earth? No other Earths have been proven to exist, but some say they probably do (meaning they possibly do, I think) since there are so many billions of star systems.

Very true and this is why a lot of these things go back to Faith since they will remain mysteries until revealed by God.
Right now we have some educated guesses based on what we see, but what we see could be very different from the actual Truth.