Predestination
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I was responding to this post of yours:
Were you not talking about predestination?
...If you meant this in regard to who has dominion of the world, please explain how.
Originally Posted by Abiding
Acts 4: 23 - 31
23 When they were released they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them.
24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,
25 who by the mouth of our father David, thy servant, didst say by the Holy Spirit, `Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed' --
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28 to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had determined to take place.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats, and grant to thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while thou stretchest out thy hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of thy holy servant Jesus."
31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.
Acts 4: 23 - 31
23 When they were released they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them.
24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who didst make the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,
25 who by the mouth of our father David, thy servant, didst say by the Holy Spirit, `Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed' --
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
28 to do whatever thy hand and thy plan had determined to take place.
29 And now, Lord, look upon their threats, and grant to thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,
30 while thou stretchest out thy hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of thy holy servant Jesus."
31 And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God with boldness.
...If you meant this in regard to who has dominion of the world, please explain how.
What word?
Limits himself?
Lolwhut?
What an absurd notion. Adam has no power to transfer any dominion to anyone. Where on earth did you come up with that?
Satan offering Jesus power doesnt mean satan has any kind of power that Jesus needs. Satan is a liar remember. So Luke 4 doesnt help you.
"god of this world" does not imply that he has any dominion or divine powers. It means the people of this world pay homage to him rather than the true God. Thats why Christians are not of this world. 2 Cor 4:4 doesnt help you.
Gal 1:4, yes the world is evil...but what do we care...we are delivered from this world. It has no bearing on satans dominion or stature compared to God Almighty. So that doesnt help you either.
Tell me where you learnt this doctrine?
Theres no way you came up with this dualism on your own. What denomination are you Shroom?
You dont wanna discuss Job in a fruitful manner, ok we'll just have to write that off as not supporting your position either.
Doesnt matter. God still allows satan to tempt people. He allowed satan to tempt Adam and Eve. Do you think He was not in control of that situation?
Timothy...I refuted here and you never explained why my refutation is wrong:
It is Gods will that every kind of person will be saved without discrimination, regarless of rank. If you read the passage in context you can see that the verses are about preaching the Gosple to ALL MEN.
(1 Timothy 2:1) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
(1 Timothy 2:2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
(1 Timothy 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
(1 Timothy 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 Timothy 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(1 Timothy 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(1 Timothy 2:7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
(1 Timothy 2:8) I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
It's not saying God wills every single man on Earth receive eternal salvation.
2 Pet 3:9 I refuted by correctly saying he is talking to the ELECT, again you have not explained why I'm wrong.
(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
In this verse the word men was added by the KJV writers, so doubtless....if we allow the rest of the NT to lead our reasoning, means all of the elect or all kinds of men as well. It surely cannot mean every single human on earth as some were made unto dishonour.
Mainline reliable schiolars agree.
Barnes
All men - I will incline all kinds of men; or will make the way open by the cross, so that all men may come. I will provide a way which shall present a strong motive or inducement - the strongest that can be presented to all men to come to me.
Clarke
I - will draw all men unto me - After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles. It was one of the peculiar characteristics of the Messiah, that unto him should the gathering of the people be, Gen_49:10. And probably our Lord refers to the prophecy, Isa_11:10, which peculiarly belonged to the Gentiles: “There shall be a root of Jesse which shall stand for an Ensign of the people, to it shall the Gentiles seek, and his rest shall be glorious.”
Whats your WORDLY logic got to do with it?
Scripture says what it says and theres NO DENYING IT.
(Romans 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Romans 8:30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
He DOES predestinate and theres not a darn thing you can do about it.
Respond to my rebuttals then.
I dont need to explain how. Thats philosophy.
Who tempted Adam and Eve to fall?
So was it Because of Adam, we were ALL BORN dead in sin or was it because of satan who is under Gods ultimate control?
I know he's an enemy to Christ and the elect I was asking you where God swore him as an enemy in scripture. If you dont have the scripture then fine.
Huh?
I said.
He never made any vow that supports your position.
He never made any kind of vow that makes satan any kind of equal or gives satan divine dominion over the earth out of Gods ultimate control.
Who taught you about this vow thing?
Limits himself?
Lolwhut?
What an absurd notion. Adam has no power to transfer any dominion to anyone. Where on earth did you come up with that?
Satan offering Jesus power doesnt mean satan has any kind of power that Jesus needs. Satan is a liar remember. So Luke 4 doesnt help you.
"god of this world" does not imply that he has any dominion or divine powers. It means the people of this world pay homage to him rather than the true God. Thats why Christians are not of this world. 2 Cor 4:4 doesnt help you.
Gal 1:4, yes the world is evil...but what do we care...we are delivered from this world. It has no bearing on satans dominion or stature compared to God Almighty. So that doesnt help you either.
Tell me where you learnt this doctrine?
Theres no way you came up with this dualism on your own. What denomination are you Shroom?
You dont wanna discuss Job in a fruitful manner, ok we'll just have to write that off as not supporting your position either.
Doesnt matter. God still allows satan to tempt people. He allowed satan to tempt Adam and Eve. Do you think He was not in control of that situation?
Timothy...I refuted here and you never explained why my refutation is wrong:
It is Gods will that every kind of person will be saved without discrimination, regarless of rank. If you read the passage in context you can see that the verses are about preaching the Gosple to ALL MEN.
(1 Timothy 2:1) I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
(1 Timothy 2:2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
(1 Timothy 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
(1 Timothy 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(1 Timothy 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(1 Timothy 2:6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(1 Timothy 2:7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not
a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.(1 Timothy 2:8) I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
It's not saying God wills every single man on Earth receive eternal salvation.
2 Pet 3:9 I refuted by correctly saying he is talking to the ELECT, again you have not explained why I'm wrong.
(John 12:32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
In this verse the word men was added by the KJV writers, so doubtless....if we allow the rest of the NT to lead our reasoning, means all of the elect or all kinds of men as well. It surely cannot mean every single human on earth as some were made unto dishonour.
Mainline reliable schiolars agree.
Barnes
All men - I will incline all kinds of men; or will make the way open by the cross, so that all men may come. I will provide a way which shall present a strong motive or inducement - the strongest that can be presented to all men to come to me.
Clarke
I - will draw all men unto me - After I shall have died and risen again, by the preaching of my word and the influence of my Spirit, I shall attract and illuminate both Jews and Gentiles. It was one of the peculiar characteristics of the Messiah, that unto him should the gathering of the people be, Gen_49:10. And probably our Lord refers to the prophecy, Isa_11:10, which peculiarly belonged to the Gentiles: “There shall be a root of Jesse which shall stand for an Ensign of the people, to it shall the Gentiles seek, and his rest shall be glorious.”
Whats your WORDLY logic got to do with it?
Scripture says what it says and theres NO DENYING IT.
(Romans 8:29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Romans 8:30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
He DOES predestinate and theres not a darn thing you can do about it.
Respond to my rebuttals then.
I dont need to explain how. Thats philosophy.
Who tempted Adam and Eve to fall?
So was it Because of Adam, we were ALL BORN dead in sin or was it because of satan who is under Gods ultimate control?
I know he's an enemy to Christ and the elect I was asking you where God swore him as an enemy in scripture. If you dont have the scripture then fine.
Huh?
I said.
He never made any vow that supports your position.
He never made any kind of vow that makes satan any kind of equal or gives satan divine dominion over the earth out of Gods ultimate control.
Who taught you about this vow thing?
Then you need to deny God's Word.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Theres just no getting away from this.
(Ephesians 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
(Ephesians 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(Ephesians 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Ephesians 1:6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
And also...
(Romans 9:21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(Romans 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(Romans 9:23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
AND:
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13)
But He does choose a persons destination about salvation. Scripture proves it.
God's Kingdom is based on the salvation of the ELECT. Yes love has much to do with it.
(1 John 3:14) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Gods Kingdom represents love for THE ELECT. Sorry if it doesnt fit in with your fuzzy WORLDview or isnt politically correct. It's just a fact.
Ah yes...the 'go to' theory for arminians everywhere. FORCE.
Force has nothing to do with it
LOVE has everything to do with it.
Those that God shows His love and give understanding and faith WILL come to Him OUT OF LOVE. Why wouldnt you?
It's not biblical otherwise you would be posting scripture to support your philosophy.
Just a repetition of the previous quote.
Love is the driving factor in predestination. Not robotics.
Again...your applying your own fallible logic and reasoning to the topic. It doesnt matter if you think God is 'mean'. HE'S GOD! He can do what He wants. He doesnt care if you think He's mean or not. He doesnt care if His ways dont make sense to you.
(Isaiah 55:8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(Isaiah 55:9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
(Isaiah 55:10) For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
(Isaiah 55:11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
(Romans 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
We need some who are blind to know what it means to have sight.
What your saying is NOT biblical its WORLDLY.
Mean?
How old are you like.....12?
We're not all in the same boat. Some have been chosen and some havn't...as Gods Word makes abundantly clear.
God said no such thing about ALL MEN EVER ON EARTH...if you think he did you need to read my rebuttals to Shroom.
(Acts 17:30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
The GOSPEL has gone out to the whole world. Not ONLY to the Jews (remember the context of Acts).
Only those who have been chosen WILL repent.
If God wants ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to be saved...and we know for a fact that some are going to hell....did God FAIL?
More to follow...............
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Theres just no getting away from this.
(Ephesians 1:3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
(Ephesians 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(Ephesians 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Ephesians 1:6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
And also...
(Romans 9:21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(Romans 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(Romans 9:23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
AND:
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13)
But He does choose a persons destination about salvation. Scripture proves it.
God's Kingdom is based on the salvation of the ELECT. Yes love has much to do with it.
(1 John 3:14) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Gods Kingdom represents love for THE ELECT. Sorry if it doesnt fit in with your fuzzy WORLDview or isnt politically correct. It's just a fact.
Ah yes...the 'go to' theory for arminians everywhere. FORCE.
Force has nothing to do with it
LOVE has everything to do with it.
Those that God shows His love and give understanding and faith WILL come to Him OUT OF LOVE. Why wouldnt you?
It's not biblical otherwise you would be posting scripture to support your philosophy.
Just a repetition of the previous quote.
Love is the driving factor in predestination. Not robotics.
Again...your applying your own fallible logic and reasoning to the topic. It doesnt matter if you think God is 'mean'. HE'S GOD! He can do what He wants. He doesnt care if you think He's mean or not. He doesnt care if His ways dont make sense to you.
(Isaiah 55:8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
(Isaiah 55:9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
(Isaiah 55:10) For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
(Isaiah 55:11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
(Romans 9:22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
We need some who are blind to know what it means to have sight.
What your saying is NOT biblical its WORLDLY.
Mean?
How old are you like.....12?
We're not all in the same boat. Some have been chosen and some havn't...as Gods Word makes abundantly clear.
God said no such thing about ALL MEN EVER ON EARTH...if you think he did you need to read my rebuttals to Shroom.
(Acts 17:30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
The GOSPEL has gone out to the whole world. Not ONLY to the Jews (remember the context of Acts).
Only those who have been chosen WILL repent.
If God wants ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to be saved...and we know for a fact that some are going to hell....did God FAIL?
More to follow...............
Again, the Gospel has gone out to all men. That doesnt mean all will receive it and be saved.
No He didnt preach that, and HE DID tell us about predestination through His Apostles letters.
Ok this should be interesting. Lets have it then.
OK? Sounds like what I've been talking about. Whats next?
Ok?
Right? Give us salvation. US His sheep. Not ALL MEN EVERYWHERE....just the elect.
Next.
EXACTLY. The the doctrine of predestination and election.
What are you debating? All who choose Him...God ALREADY had the plan to give them that salvation in the beginning. THE ELECT!
So what about those who DIDNT choose Him?
They are NOT the elect. And God already had the plan to NOT give them salvation OBVIOUSLY!
So I'm afraid the statement in the above quote:
"it does not mean that God chooses some to be saved and some not to be saved beforehand,but it means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world,and this salvation is to whoever chooses it"
IS FALSE!
Nope, sorry. Doesnt work. You've already admitted...
"all people who choose this salvation and become saints,God already had the plan to give them that salvation in the beginning"
nope sorry...it means THE SAINTS were predestined. Not all mankind
Contradictamundo.
How can predestination be a future event ? lolz.
Just repetition of your previous incorrect assertions. No need to go over this again.
Because there is a general 'call' (the Gospel going out to all mankind) and there is being 'called' supernaturally by God. Predestinated to election.
It would sure help if you could quote the scripture your talking about.
Are you referring to:
(1 Peter 2:12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
This in no way implies the "visitation" is for ALL MEN EVERYWHERE OR that it means salvation.
Nah...Gods visitation doesnt have to mean anything of the sort. It might just mean the preaching of the Gospel or certain blessings to certain people.
How can you say predestination is a false doctrine when it is clearly stated that Christians are predestined to salvation?
(Ephesians 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
The same applies to those who reject predestination. Look at Shroom. See the domino effect?
Now he has a weakling god who has no control over the world and cant accomplish things he sets out to do coz he's too puny and some mysterious deal that transfers legal authority of the earth over to satan oh and...Jesus aint God either coz that wont work in his error ridden theology.
Just a mess.
And by the way...I've never been to church so how do you explain my insistence that predestination is correct?
No He didnt preach that, and HE DID tell us about predestination through His Apostles letters.
Ok this should be interesting. Lets have it then.
OK? Sounds like what I've been talking about. Whats next?
Ok?
Right? Give us salvation. US His sheep. Not ALL MEN EVERYWHERE....just the elect.
Next.
EXACTLY. The the doctrine of predestination and election.
What are you debating? All who choose Him...God ALREADY had the plan to give them that salvation in the beginning. THE ELECT!
So what about those who DIDNT choose Him?
They are NOT the elect. And God already had the plan to NOT give them salvation OBVIOUSLY!
So I'm afraid the statement in the above quote:
"it does not mean that God chooses some to be saved and some not to be saved beforehand,but it means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world,and this salvation is to whoever chooses it"
IS FALSE!
Nope, sorry. Doesnt work. You've already admitted...
"all people who choose this salvation and become saints,God already had the plan to give them that salvation in the beginning"
nope sorry...it means THE SAINTS were predestined. Not all mankind
Contradictamundo.
How can predestination be a future event ? lolz.
Just repetition of your previous incorrect assertions. No need to go over this again.
Because there is a general 'call' (the Gospel going out to all mankind) and there is being 'called' supernaturally by God. Predestinated to election.
It would sure help if you could quote the scripture your talking about.
Are you referring to:
(1 Peter 2:12) Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
This in no way implies the "visitation" is for ALL MEN EVERYWHERE OR that it means salvation.
Nah...Gods visitation doesnt have to mean anything of the sort. It might just mean the preaching of the Gospel or certain blessings to certain people.
How can you say predestination is a false doctrine when it is clearly stated that Christians are predestined to salvation?
(Ephesians 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
The same applies to those who reject predestination. Look at Shroom. See the domino effect?
Now he has a weakling god who has no control over the world and cant accomplish things he sets out to do coz he's too puny and some mysterious deal that transfers legal authority of the earth over to satan oh and...Jesus aint God either coz that wont work in his error ridden theology.
Just a mess.
And by the way...I've never been to church so how do you explain my insistence that predestination is correct?
For those of us who are simple minded and believe the truth with a humble and contrite heart and receive the kingdom as a little child by faith, this is a beautiful way to understand predestination.
Jesus Christ is the only one who was predestinated by the Father. He was predestinated to be the Son of God and to be the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. No one person has ever been predestinated outside of Christ and the righteousness of God, no not one. The Lamb was slain for the sins of man before man was even created, making Christ the only one who is predestinated. When anyone or whosoever believes in the righteousness of God and in the name of Jesus Christ, that person is imputed God's righteousness and is placed securely in Christ.
Being placed in Christ becomes the place of predestination for the believer and is where the believer has been called, justified and glorified. This is the place where the believer is foreknown and conformed into the image of God's Son. This is the place where the believer receives his adoption as the good pleasure and counsel of God's will. This is where the believer is hid with Christ in God with all other believers who have the righteousness of God imputed to them. This the place of God's eternal purpose that He has purposed in Christ. This is where the believer is blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ. This is the place that each believer experiences his election by grace through faith. This is the place of the believer's inheritance in Christ and the place that we look upon Him by faith.
This is the place that God has set apart for whosoever would believe upon His Son whom He sent. We are only predestinated in Christ (86 times in Ephesians alone). In this place of predestination we have eternal life and have been sealed until we put on our new in-corrupt bodies of redemption and immortality and no man can take or pluck us from this place, because it is secured by the hand of the Father and the hand of the Son. In this place of predestination we have fellowship with the Father and with the Son. In this place the wicked one touches us not and we will reign with Christ forever. This the place that we receive and perceive all the promises of God as yea and amen, and this is the place that the word of God will never pass away. Here in this place we are encouraged as we sit in heavenly places in Christ setting our affections on things above and having access to the throne of God's mercy and grace. Predestination is a place where we have been called, justified, and glorified and are known with the Father, with the Son and with one another.
Jesus Christ is the only one who was predestinated by the Father. He was predestinated to be the Son of God and to be the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world. No one person has ever been predestinated outside of Christ and the righteousness of God, no not one. The Lamb was slain for the sins of man before man was even created, making Christ the only one who is predestinated. When anyone or whosoever believes in the righteousness of God and in the name of Jesus Christ, that person is imputed God's righteousness and is placed securely in Christ.
Being placed in Christ becomes the place of predestination for the believer and is where the believer has been called, justified and glorified. This is the place where the believer is foreknown and conformed into the image of God's Son. This is the place where the believer receives his adoption as the good pleasure and counsel of God's will. This is where the believer is hid with Christ in God with all other believers who have the righteousness of God imputed to them. This the place of God's eternal purpose that He has purposed in Christ. This is where the believer is blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ. This is the place that each believer experiences his election by grace through faith. This is the place of the believer's inheritance in Christ and the place that we look upon Him by faith.
This is the place that God has set apart for whosoever would believe upon His Son whom He sent. We are only predestinated in Christ (86 times in Ephesians alone). In this place of predestination we have eternal life and have been sealed until we put on our new in-corrupt bodies of redemption and immortality and no man can take or pluck us from this place, because it is secured by the hand of the Father and the hand of the Son. In this place of predestination we have fellowship with the Father and with the Son. In this place the wicked one touches us not and we will reign with Christ forever. This the place that we receive and perceive all the promises of God as yea and amen, and this is the place that the word of God will never pass away. Here in this place we are encouraged as we sit in heavenly places in Christ setting our affections on things above and having access to the throne of God's mercy and grace. Predestination is a place where we have been called, justified, and glorified and are known with the Father, with the Son and with one another.
Well, we could believe you Red. Or we could believe the Word of God.
It's a toughie, but I'll go with the Word.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
them - G5128
τούτους
toutous
too'-tooce
Accusative plural masculine of G3778; these (persons, as object of verb or preposition): - such, them, these, this.
The people (plural) that are called He justified, and those same people are PREDESTINATED.
Are you saying that this verse is ONLY about the predestination of Jesus?
(Ephesians 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
us -G2248
ἡμᾶς
hēmas
hay-mas'
Accusative plural of G1473; us: - our, us, we.Looks like WE were chosen by God before the foundations of the world.
(Ephesians 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Of course the above verse entirely refutes your theory in one swoop. We are the ones PREDESTINATED unto the adoption BY Christ.
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13)
Again, the ones who are chosen from the beginning are the ELECT. It's not talking about Jesus.
It's a toughie, but I'll go with the Word.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
them - G5128
τούτους
toutous
too'-tooce
Accusative plural masculine of G3778; these (persons, as object of verb or preposition): - such, them, these, this.
The people (plural) that are called He justified, and those same people are PREDESTINATED.
Are you saying that this verse is ONLY about the predestination of Jesus?
(Ephesians 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
us -G2248
ἡμᾶς
hēmas
hay-mas'
Accusative plural of G1473; us: - our, us, we.Looks like WE were chosen by God before the foundations of the world.
(Ephesians 1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Of course the above verse entirely refutes your theory in one swoop. We are the ones PREDESTINATED unto the adoption BY Christ.
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” (2 Thess. 2:13)
Again, the ones who are chosen from the beginning are the ELECT. It's not talking about Jesus.