What Changed?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
Total Depravity, Part II

Before taking up the topic of "leaven", I would be remiss in not reminding everyone of a couple of companion verses that strongly support Mk 10:18. Paul, for one, tells us that he knew that "nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature". And he explains how he knew this: "For I have the desire to do what is right but not the ability to carry it out" (Rom 7:18).

And a prophet of Israel told the nation that there is nothing spiritually sound in them. That "your whole head is injured" and "your whole heart is afflicted" -- from the sole of your feet to the top of their head there was no spiritual soundness to be found (Isa 1:5-6). (Shortly, we will see why this is!)

And the reason why man isn't good is because he cannot perfectly keep God's law which is holy, righteous and good (Rom 7:12). Therefore, in Paul's indictment of mankind, he says, "there is no one who does good, not even one" (Rom 3:12b). What Paul means is that no one does "good" Godward because no one serves God. Even the good that an unbeliever does toward his fellow man is ultimately not good because God is not in the equation of the doing! Whatever good on the horizontal plane that man does toward another is not done to the glory and honor and praise of God. Therefore, this kind of "good" is still evil!

Now we come to primary subject of this post: Leaven! "Leaven" in the bible often refers to evil or sin. Paul teaches in Gal 5:9 that just a "little leaven leavens the whole lump". This is why the Israelites were commanded to not only abstain from leaven during the Passover Feast -- but to remove every bit of it from their households! They were not permitted to have so much as a scintilla of leaven in their homes during the Feast. The removal of it symbolized their purity in keeping the feast according to God's commands.

If someone takes a glass or cup and fills it with water and puts as little as one drop of deadly poison it, and a person drinks it, he will surely die -- just from one small drop. Well...isn't that what happened at the Fall? Adam sinned and he "poisoned" the entire human race with his one sin. Adam disobeyed and he died spiritually on that day and he spread that death to all progeny by his one sin. Paul tells us that "death reigned through that one man", and that the "many died by the trespass of one man..." (Rom 5:12-20). There isn't a more poignant illustration of the Leaven Principle than what is revealed in the Fall of man.

And we have more positive proof that man's depravity is total (as if death weren't enough) by the parallel metaphor of darkness. All the sons and daughters of the Prince of Darkness (seed of the Serpent) are themselves darkness (Eph 5:8) until God delivers his elect therefrom. In fact, God drove Adam out of the Garden because a thrice holy God who himself is Light cannot have fellowship with the Darkness (2Cor 6:14). This Darkness covers the entire earth and is over all the peoples (Isa 60:2), all mankind's foolish hearts are darkened (Rom 1:21, as well as their understanding (Eph 4:18).. It's no wonder that God himself has to rescue his people from Satan's kingdom of Darkness (Col 1:13) since the lost love the darkness because their deeds are evil, therefore, they hate the light for fear that their evil deeds will be exposed (Jn 3:19-20); therefore, God effectually called his people out of darkness into his marvelous light (1Pet 2:9). Is it any wonder that is written of the Light of the World:

Matt 4:13-16
13 Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali— 14 to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah:

15 "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali,
the way to the sea, along the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles—
16 the people living in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of the shadow of death
a light has dawned."

NIV

The antithesis of life is death, and of light is darkness and of good is evil. There is no middle ground between any of these categories.

The objection is often made that Reformers speak out of both sides of their mouths with respect to this doctrine; for we hold that man is "totally" depraved quantitatively in all his faculties, rather than qualitatively. (IOW, man isn't as evil as he could be.) How can someone be darkness itself or in a state of spiritual death only in a quantitative sense? I will answer this question in my next post.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
113
62
But.... Where's your love?????

You lose ten good-works, human good, brownie points for that one!
If you knew better the person I was addressing, you would know that she has said she prefers direct discourse. Doesn't doing something the way someone prefers evidence love?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,973
420
83
If you knew better the person I was addressing, you would know that she has said she prefers direct discourse. Doesn't doing something the way someone prefers evidence love?
You lost track.....
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,973
420
83
And you are projecting. Absolutely nothing edifying in your posts.
Grace and peace.
If you did not have to get in the last word .....

This nonsense would have stopped.
But, you suffer from what you accused me of doing. :whistle::coffee::coffee::coffee:
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
This morning I didn't go to worship service at my church because I'm not feeling well, so I listened to an excellent sermon by pastor C.J. Mahaney of the Sovereign Grace Church in Louisville. (A brother years ago turned me to this church.) And WOW! What a joyous, uplifting, edifying, assuring sermon it was. I was truly blessed. He preached today on Jude 1 in which Jude broached the subject of God's preserving grace -- a topic that he not only opened his letter with but also closes with, as well, in vv. 24-25. I would heartily recommend listening so that you can share in the blessing. Here's the link:

https://www.sgclouisville.org/sermo...ubGlzdCZyZWNlbnRSb3V0ZVNsdWc9JTJCcnpobjZxMg==
 

Dalet

New member
Oct 13, 2024
16
8
3
What Changed?
Assuming that you are a child of God, What was the event that resulted in this change?
All people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin; without the grace of the regenerating Holy Spirit they are neither willing nor able to return to God, to reform their distorted nature, or even to dispose themselves to such reform.

Something had to change
Did you overcome this condition in your own strength, or were you drawn to Christ by the power of the Spirit? If you were drawn, were you able to resist being drawn?
It is written, God has his chosen,and the elect. My opinion for what it's worth, Christ called out the Pharasees,snakes and sons of cain.the sed ok Cain does exists in our world and society.. I don't believe they can or will ever accept God or Jesus Christ .he gave all free will to make their own decision to accept Hih or the world. God told Cain , if you do well will you not be accepted?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
Total Depravity, Part 3

Since there is no spiritual soundness in anyone who is in Adam, since no one but God alone is Good because all the unregenerate are darkness itself and in fact love the darkness because their deeds are evil, which is why they naturally have no desire to come to the Light (in whom there is no darkness), lest their evil deeds be exposed. Given these biblical facts, then, how can those of the Reformed Tradition of the Faith make the claim that mankind's depravity is total only in the quantitative sense (affecting all the faculties of our heart) and not total in the qualitative sense? The biblical answer to this is that God sovereignly restrains evil upon this earth, a/k/a common or saving grace, depending on the situation. If it weren't for his grace this planet would literally be hell and become unlivable! All mankind would eventually self-destruct. Man would eventually annihilate himself given his violent and self-destructive tendencies. I would posit that God restrains evil through Natural Revelation (the natural order ordained by Him), through Special Revelation (the holy, authoritative inspired, inerrant Word of God), through Intuitive Revelation, through his Church and through God's Personal-Individual Revelation (i.e. personal intervention). Let's briefly examine these five methods.

Natural Revelation (the ordained Natural Order of this World)

God decreed the establishment of Human Government (Civil Authority) after the Flood (Gen 9:6). And the world is obligated to obey all civil authorities that God has sovereignly decreed to rule over the nations (Dan 2:21; Rom 13:1-5; 1Pet 2:13-14).

But even prior to that, God ordained the smallest and most personal unit of government known as Family, which he did at Creation (Gen 1:28). And according to Special Revelation, God has commanded that parents are to train up their children in righteousness and in admonition and the fear of the Lord (Prov 22:6; Gen 18:19; Deut 4:9, Eph 6:4; 2Tim 3:15, etc.)

In addition to the two forms of government, God's image-bearers were created with consciences. And the primary job of a conscience is to either accuse or acquit a person (Rom 2:15).

Moreover, God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and wickedness (Rom 1:18), most especially through his temporal judgments (wars, natural disasters, rise and fall of nations, etc.).

Special Revelation

God has, of course, revealed his perfect, holy will both through his Law and his Gospel -- both of these forms of truth are designed to restrain evil. Both those who love God's law and his Gospel truth and thus fear God and are most prone to abstain from evil and to do good (Prov 3:7; 16:6; Job; 28:28; Ps 119:11; Jn 8:32, etc.)

Intuitive Revelation

This revelation (and of course the Law of Moses, as well as the Gospel, in Special Revelation) work hand-in-glove with man's conscience, since with the former the works of God's Law are written upon all the hearts of humanity (Rom 2:15).

Revelation Through Christ's Church

Christ's Church is not only given the great privilege to preach the Gospel, but is tasked to be light and salt of this earth (Mat 5:13-16), and to do good works (Eph 2:10; 2Cor 9:8, etc.) so that the world would see them and give praise to God (Mat 5:16). In short, Christians have this great privilege of influencing the world for good and in this way the Church plays a key role in simultaneously restraining evil.

God's Personal-Individualistic Revelation/Intervention

There are numerous examples of this in scripture. God rescued Sarah from the hands of evil Abimelech (Gen 20:3-7). God also restrained the madness of Balaam and would not permit him to curse his chosen people (Jude 11). God saved Paul and the Roman cohort from a raging storm at sea (Act 27:27-28:5). And God also works postively for the Good. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement (Jn 16:8). God sent Philip to preach the gospel to the Ethopian (Act 8:26ff.) and he sent Peter to preach to Cornelius and his household (Act 10), etc., etc.

And such are the incomparable and incomprehensible wonders of God's GRACE! This world wouln't survive one nanosecond apart from it! And I make no claim that this list is comprhensive. Others here may think of things I've missed.


















 
Jul 15, 2024
100
23
18
Total Depravity, Part 3

Since there is no spiritual soundness in anyone who is in Adam, since no one but God alone is Good because all the unregenerate are darkness itself and in fact love the darkness because their deeds are evil, which is why they naturally have no desire to come to the Light (in whom there is no darkness), lest their evil deeds be exposed. Given these biblical facts, then, how can those of the Reformed Tradition of the Faith make the claim that mankind's depravity is total only in the quantitative sense (affecting all the faculties of our heart) and not total in the qualitative sense? The biblical answer to this is that God sovereignly restrains evil upon this earth, a/k/a common or saving grace, depending on the situation. If it weren't for his grace this planet would literally be hell and become unlivable! All mankind would eventually self-destruct. Man would eventually annihilate himself given his violent and self-destructive tendencies. I would posit that God restrains evil through Natural Revelation (the natural order ordained by Him), through Special Revelation (the holy, authoritative inspired, inerrant Word of God), through Intuitive Revelation, through his Church and through God's Personal-Individual Revelation (i.e. personal intervention). Let's briefly examine these five methods.

Natural Revelation (the ordained Natural Order of this World)

God decreed the establishment of Human Government (Civil Authority) after the Flood (Gen 9:6). And the world is obligated to obey all civil authorities that God has sovereignly decreed to rule over the nations (Dan 2:21; Rom 13:1-5; 1Pet 2:13-14).

But even prior to that, God ordained the smallest and most personal unit of government known as Family, which he did at Creation (Gen 1:28). And according to Special Revelation, God has commanded that parents are to train up their children in righteousness and in admonition and the fear of the Lord (Prov 22:6; Gen 18:19; Deut 4:9, Eph 6:4; 2Tim 3:15, etc.)

In addition to the two forms of government, God's image-bearers were created with consciences. And the primary job of a conscience is to either accuse or acquit a person (Rom 2:15).

Moreover, God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and wickedness (Rom 1:18), most especially through his temporal judgments (wars, natural disasters, rise and fall of nations, etc.).

Special Revelation

God has, of course, revealed his perfect, holy will both through his Law and his Gospel -- both of these forms of truth are designed to restrain evil. Both those who love God's law and his Gospel truth and thus fear God and are most prone to abstain from evil and to do good (Prov 3:7; 16:6; Job; 28:28; Ps 119:11; Jn 8:32, etc.)

Intuitive Revelation

This revelation (and of course the Law of Moses, as well as the Gospel, in Special Revelation) work hand-in-glove with man's conscience, since with the former the works of God's Law are written upon all the hearts of humanity (Rom 2:15).

Revelation Through Christ's Church

Christ's Church is not only given the great privilege to preach the Gospel, but is tasked to be light and salt of this earth (Mat 5:13-16), and to do good works (Eph 2:10; 2Cor 9:8, etc.) so that the world would see them and give praise to God (Mat 5:16). In short, Christians have this great privilege of influencing the world for good and in this way the Church plays a key role in simultaneously restraining evil.

God's Personal-Individualistic Revelation/Intervention

There are numerous examples of this in scripture. God rescued Sarah from the hands of evil Abimelech (Gen 20:3-7). God also restrained the madness of Balaam and would not permit him to curse his chosen people (Jude 11). God saved Paul and the Roman cohort from a raging storm at sea (Act 27:27-28:5). And God also works postively for the Good. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement (Jn 16:8). God sent Philip to preach the gospel to the Ethopian (Act 8:26ff.) and he sent Peter to preach to Cornelius and his household (Act 10), etc., etc.

And such are the incomparable and incomprehensible wonders of God's GRACE! This world wouln't survive one nanosecond apart from it! And I make no claim that this list is comprhensive. Others here may think of things I've missed.


















It's not whether or not humans are totally depraved. We can be good, just not good enough.
 

Publican

Active member
Oct 1, 2024
438
226
43
I was a horrible person. Got married, had a baby on the way, and when I wasn't working I was drinking. I was raised right more or less, I tried two years to be a better person. One night I gave up. I cried out to the heavens, not even Christ specifically, just cried out, help me I'm dying. I woke up the next morning a completely different person. I'm sure that reading the word over the previous year helped a lot. But I didn't understand a word of it until after I received the Spirit.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
It's not whether or not humans are totally depraved. We can be good, just not good enough.
And just ponder and meditate on Adam's one sin that ruined that "poisoned" the entire human race and this planet as well! ONE sin! A LITTLE BIT OF LEAVEN LEAVENS THE WHOLE LOAF!
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
I was a horrible person. Got married, had a baby on the way, and when I wasn't working I was drinking. I was raised right more or less, I tried two years to be a better person. One night I gave up. I cried out to the heavens, not even Christ specifically, just cried out, help me I'm dying. I woke up the next morning a completely different person. I'm sure that reading the word over the previous year helped a lot. But I didn't understand a word of it until after I received the Spirit.
Wow! What a testimony. Similar to mine. I, too, cried out to God and prayed this "great sinner's prayer": God...IF you're there...if you hear me.... Well, he was merciful and he did hear me and about a year or so after I prayed that pathetic, anemic prayer, God put a pastor in my life who led me to the Lord.
 

Publican

Active member
Oct 1, 2024
438
226
43
Wow! What a testimony. Similar to mine. I, too, cried out to God and prayed this "great sinner's prayer": God...IF you're there...if you hear me.... Well, he was merciful and he did hear me and about a year or so after I prayed that pathetic, anemic prayer, God put a pastor in my life who led me to the Lord.
Praise be to Yah. This was a blessing to hear. Thank you.
I found a horrible pastor who shipwrecked my faith. All in Gods plan I guess. That was a long time ago.
 

Publican

Active member
Oct 1, 2024
438
226
43
And just ponder and meditate on Adam's one sin that ruined that "poisoned" the entire human race and this planet as well! ONE sin! A LITTLE BIT OF LEAVEN LEAVENS THE WHOLE LOAF!
The Evil of Evils
By the Puritan Jeremiah Burroughs.
I think you'll like this one if you can find a copy.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
The Evil of Evils
By the Puritan Jeremiah Burroughs.
I think you'll like this one if you can find a copy.
Thanks for the tip. I think if I buy anymore books, my wife will shoot me <g>, but I can still snoop around and look the book.
 

Publican

Active member
Oct 1, 2024
438
226
43
Thanks for the tip. I think if I buy anymore books, my wife will shoot me <g>, but I can still snoop around and look the book.
I don't have a wife. I prefer books.
But you must trust her, you gave her a firearm. The book was a major blessing, if being seriously convicted would be considered a blessing. I believe it qualifies.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,461
270
83
I don't have a wife. I prefer books.
But you must trust her, you gave her a firearm. The book was a major blessing, if being seriously convicted would be considered a blessing. I believe it qualifies.
No, she actually bought her own pistola. Now she's a real pistol. :p