The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

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GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#81
I'm not sure what you are asking as my response did answer what I believed you were asking. Perhaps you will restate your question and I'll give it another shot.
Okay. The follow-up question to "What must I do to be saved?" for those of us who are interested in witnessing to atheists (theodicy) is this: “What is GRFS for those who have never heard of Jesus?” (which includes everyone living B.C. and millions of people who have lived A.D.)
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
495
148
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#82
Belief and obedience to the Acts 2:38 commands result in becoming a born again child of God. If you will recall, Jesus gave the keyS of kingdom to Peter who presented them on that day, and thereafter. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48) "Unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot of see or enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5)
Okay, how do you harmonize JN 3:3-5 with 1 TM 2:3-4: "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth".
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,729
6,437
113
62
#83
Okay. The follow-up question to "What must I do to be saved?" for those of us who are interested in witnessing to atheists (theodicy) is this: “What is GRFS for those who have never heard of Jesus?” (which includes everyone living B.C. and millions of people who have lived A.D.)
Regeneration. But it's not possible for those who have died.
Salvation has never changed from the time of Adam and Eve.
 

Beckworth

Active member
May 15, 2019
575
180
43
#85
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (John 3:16-17)

The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent. (John 6:29)

Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved (Acts 16:31)

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)
Those are all true but only deal with one aspect of salvation—faith. God also says that REPENTANCE. Is necessary Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30. And CONFESSION Romans 10:10, and BAPTISM 1Peter 3:21, Acts2:38, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16. Besides leaving these out, we can’t “take away” from God’s word What He has put there for us to obey. Revelation 22:19. In addition, God specifically says that we are NOT SAVED BY FAITH ALONE. James 2:24. Psalms 119:160 says the SUM of God’s word is truth. You must take it ALL—not just the part you like.
 

Beckworth

Active member
May 15, 2019
575
180
43
#86
A lot of good Scripture has been cited, but not yet that which addresses the obvious question to ask at this point: “What is GRFS for those who have never heard of Jesus?” (which includes everyone living B.C. and millions of people who have lived A.D.)
In a nut shell: for those living before Christ; they must have been faithful followers of Jehovah keeping whatever law they were under—whether the old Jewish law of animal sacrifices and the 10 commandments or whether they were gentiles living under the “ patriarchal law”. Those who loved, and served Jehovah would have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus.. If His blood can reach FORWARD and cleanse us 2000 years this side of the cross, His blood can also reach BACKWARD and cleanse those living thousands of years BEFORE the cross. This is what is taught in Hebrews 9:15. The blood of Jesus saves everyone. This is how the patriarchs like Job, Adam, Abraham, Issac Jacob, and Joseph are saved—just like us, by the blood of Christ which is applied to all of God’s faithful followers.

For those people today who do not know God—regardless of the reason and there could be several reasons why they do not know Him—according to 2 Thess.1 they will be lost. Jesus said you cannot come to the Father except by Him. How can they be saved if they don’t know God? Those people have to obey God’s plan of salvation as it is given in scripture just like we do. God is no respecter of persons. His law is the same for everyone.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
495
148
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#87
Those are all true but only deal with one aspect of salvation—faith. God also says that REPENTANCE. Is necessary Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30. And CONFESSION Romans 10:10, and BAPTISM 1Peter 3:21, Acts2:38, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16. Besides leaving these out, we can’t “take away” from God’s word What He has put there for us to obey. Revelation 22:19. In addition, God specifically says that we are NOT SAVED BY FAITH ALONE. James 2:24. Psalms 119:160 says the SUM of God’s word is truth. You must take it ALL—not just the part you like.
What y'all are doing is systematic theology or harmonizing Scripture, thinking "both-and" rather than "either-or". (y)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,325
13,713
113
#88
Those are all true but only deal with one aspect of salvation—faith. God also says that REPENTANCE. Is necessary Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30. And CONFESSION Romans 10:10, and BAPTISM 1Peter 3:21, Acts2:38, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16. Besides leaving these out, we can’t “take away” from God’s word What He has put there for us to obey. Revelation 22:19. In addition, God specifically says that we are NOT SAVED BY FAITH ALONE. James 2:24. Psalms 119:160 says the SUM of God’s word is truth. You must take it ALL—not just the part you like.
I agree with everything you said, though I can't say the way you phrased your post was appreciated. You imply rather strongly that I intentionally excluded the aspects you mentioned. Perhaps next time, assume the best of others. ;)
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
10,217
4,279
113
Almost Heaven West Virginia
#89
Belief and obedience to the Acts 2:38 commands result in becoming a born again child of God. If you will recall, Jesus gave the keyS of kingdom to Peter who presented them on that day, and thereafter. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48) "Unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot of see or enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:3-5)
Yes, that which is born if flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus was talking about the physical birth that happened first of water and the second which is of the Spirit.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#91
Be trusting God and you will be being saved.
Yes! Jesus Himself expressed GRFS succinctly using three, four and five letter words: “Ask… seek… knock…” (MT 7:7). As Hebrews 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards [saves] those who earnestly seek him” (cf. IS 45:19).

Three ways God/Christ is encountered include:

1. general revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8).

2. the inner conscience, a natural or “common” sense (RM 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture; and

3. special revelation (1PT 1:8-12), which refers to the biblical and especially NT teaching regarding God’s history of salvation. Again, Jesus taught that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1CR 10:1-5).

Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (JN 14:6, ACTS 24:14, PHP 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,247
1,104
113
#92
Okay, how do you harmonize JN 3:3-5 with 1 TM 2:3-4: "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth".
1 Tim 2:1-4 is about praying for the lost. It is through prayer and preaching that people come to the knowledge of the truth. ie, Mark 16:15-16, John 3:3-5, Acts 2:4, 33, 36-42, etc.

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:1-4
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,247
1,104
113
#93
Yes, that which is born if flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus was talking about the physical birth that happened first of water and the second which is of the Spirit.
Consider that all detailed conversion accounts reference both water and Spirit. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)
This is not a coincidence, but rather confirmation of what Jesus actually meant by water and Spirit.
 
May 29, 2013
9,160
1,787
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#94
What is God's requirement for salvation (GRFS)?
I read that the term kerygma came to refer to the essentials of the gospel message at sometime after the word was used in the New Testament.

But this is an important topic. I've taken to prayerfully pointing out to preachers when they do a 'challenge' at the end of the message and leave out the resurrection and sometimes the crucifixion (trying to come up with a name for it. When I was a kid, there were more 'altar calls', but now they keep the people in the connected seats that replaced the pews.)

When Paul explained the gospel in I Corinthians 15, he included the fact that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures, that He was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. Then he starts talking about witnesses, then includes himself and goes into other topics.

Luke 24 contains a good summary from the mouth of Christ, that the Messiah had to suffer, be buried, and rise again from the dead according to the scriptures, and that repentance and remission of sins are to be preached in His name to all nations. He said, 'ye are witnesses of these things.'

In my own lifetime, I've seen evangelism and altar calls go from preaching the cross and (hopefully) the resurrection, with an emphasis on Christ dying for our sins... to a little sermon add on about religion being supposedly bad and relationship good.... so why don't you repeat this prayer to receive Jesus--who I haven't told you about today.

It's as if repeating a prayer to 'receive Christ' is the same as receiving Christ. I would say this approach is based on John 1 where it says that as many as received Him received power to become the sons of God. I'd say that's an influence on the phrase 'receive Christ.' But I think the modern prayer is based on 'monkey see, monkey do', relying on ritual instead of knowledge of scripture, and the tendency of evangelicalism to be reductionist. Preachers grew up with the sinner's prayer ritual, and learned it as it gradually got reduced to exclude the gospel, as it became a little tag on after a message that does not preach the risen Christ.

The sinner's prayer as we know it is about 70 years old. Billy Graham used to preach the death, and resurrection of Christ. He had prayer counselors to counsel people after a meeting, going through points of the gospel, and they had a little prayer at the end of their booklet to serve as a confession of faith where the individual confessed himself as a sinner, acknowledged faith in Christ as Lord and that He died for his (or her) sins and rose again. Many evangelicals adapted the ritual of repeating the prayer as the part that saves instead of the gospel part.

In line with the so-called 'Great Commission' passage in Matthew 28 and the preaching and practice of apostles like Peter and Paul, I believe it is appropriate to offer someone baptism after presenting the gospel, at least if they are ready. I notice Paul did not offer baptism at the Aeropagus while dealing with pagans when he had to start with explaining who God is, different from his ministry to Jews. But he did baptize a jailor in Philippi, no doubt after sufficient explanation.

I could go into evangelical concepts regarding salvation being in internal supernatural transformation versus the 'intellectual' aspect of affirming and believing points of the gospel and historical facts, but tat would make my message even longer.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,247
1,104
113
#96
Yes! Jesus Himself expressed GRFS succinctly using three, four and five letter words: “Ask… seek… knock…” (MT 7:7). As Hebrews 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards [saves] those who earnestly seek him” (cf. IS 45:19).
As seen in the Luke account, Jesus reference to "ask...seek...knock... pertains to receiving the Holy Spirit. And as stated by Paul, if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. (Rom. 8:9) This scripture, along with others, indicates receiving the Holy Spirit does not normally occur at the point of believing the gospel message: (Acts 2:36-38, 8:12-18, 19:1-7, etc.)

"For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13
 
Jul 7, 2022
10,217
4,279
113
Almost Heaven West Virginia
#97
Consider that all detailed conversion accounts reference both water and Spirit. (Acts 2:4-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)
This is not a coincidence, but rather confirmation of what Jesus actually meant by water and Spirit.


I can understand how you may think that Jesus was commanding Nicodemus to be baptized in John 3, but looking at the defining verse I posted it was a physical birth of flesh, not immersion first then Spirit.
Look again and see it in that light.

He explained it to His disciples just before the ascension in the first chapter.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Not many days hence, ten, they were baptized with the Holy Ghost.
 
Oct 19, 2024
495
148
43
#98
I read that the term kerygma came to refer to the essentials of the gospel message at sometime after the word was used in the New Testament.

But this is an important topic. I've taken to prayerfully pointing out to preachers when they do a 'challenge' at the end of the message and leave out the resurrection and sometimes the crucifixion (trying to come up with a name for it. When I was a kid, there were more 'altar calls', but now they keep the people in the connected seats that replaced the pews.)

When Paul explained the gospel in I Corinthians 15, he included the fact that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures, that He was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures. Then he starts talking about witnesses, then includes himself and goes into other topics.

Luke 24 contains a good summary from the mouth of Christ, that the Messiah had to suffer, be buried, and rise again from the dead according to the scriptures, and that repentance and remission of sins are to be preached in His name to all nations. He said, 'ye are witnesses of these things.'

In my own lifetime, I've seen evangelism and altar calls go from preaching the cross and (hopefully) the resurrection, with an emphasis on Christ dying for our sins... to a little sermon add on about religion being supposedly bad and relationship good.... so why don't you repeat this prayer to receive Jesus--who I haven't told you about today.

It's as if repeating a prayer to 'receive Christ' is the same as receiving Christ. I would say this approach is based on John 1 where it says that as many as received Him received power to become the sons of God. I'd say that's an influence on the phrase 'receive Christ.' But I think the modern prayer is based on 'monkey see, monkey do', relying on ritual instead of knowledge of scripture, and the tendency of evangelicalism to be reductionist. Preachers grew up with the sinner's prayer ritual, and learned it as it gradually got reduced to exclude the gospel, as it became a little tag on after a message that does not preach the risen Christ.

The sinner's prayer as we know it is about 70 years old. Billy Graham used to preach the death, and resurrection of Christ. He had prayer counselors to counsel people after a meeting, going through points of the gospel, and they had a little prayer at the end of their booklet to serve as a confession of faith where the individual confessed himself as a sinner, acknowledged faith in Christ as Lord and that He died for his (or her) sins and rose again. Many evangelicals adapted the ritual of repeating the prayer as the part that saves instead of the gospel part.

In line with the so-called 'Great Commission' passage in Matthew 28 and the preaching and practice of apostles like Peter and Paul, I believe it is appropriate to offer someone baptism after presenting the gospel, at least if they are ready. I notice Paul did not offer baptism at the Aeropagus while dealing with pagans when he had to start with explaining who God is, different from his ministry to Jews. But he did baptize a jailor in Philippi, no doubt after sufficient explanation.

I could go into evangelical concepts regarding salvation being in internal supernatural transformation versus the 'intellectual' aspect of affirming and believing points of the gospel and historical facts, but tat would make my message even longer.
Wow! Good, and loong post!
 
Oct 19, 2024
495
148
43
#99
I can understand how you may think that Jesus was commanding Nicodemus to be baptized in John 3, but looking at the defining verse I posted it was a physical birth of flesh, not immersion first then Spirit.
Look again and see it in that light.

He explained it to His disciples just before the ascension in the first chapter.

5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Not many days hence, ten, they were baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Right! And such baptism is evidenced by having loving fruit. (JN 13:35, GL 5:22-23)
 
Oct 19, 2024
495
148
43
1 Tim 2:1-4 is about praying for the lost. It is through prayer and preaching that people come to the knowledge of the truth. ie, Mark 16:15-16, John 3:3-5, Acts 2:4, 33, 36-42, etc.

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:1-4
This passage is about BOTH prayer, pleasing God, and God's will for all humans who have ever lived in the world to be saved, because His love is omni.