Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
The context of Heb. 6:4 - 6 nuances the meaning of 6:4 - 6.

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Who is the "we"?
Impossible for whom?
What would be the difference if it had said, "It is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance" (which it does not say), instead of, "It is impossible to renew them gain to repentance" (which it does say) ?

What would be the difference between a teacher telling her class, " It is impossible to swallow a one metre long fish whole", versus " It is impossible for a one metre long fish to be swallowed whole" ?



You put absolutely zero thought into my three questions.

Who is the "we"?
Impossible for whom?
What would be the difference if it had said, "It is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance" (which it does not say), instead of, "It is impossible to renew them gain to repentance" (which it does say) ?

That should have said "my last FOUR questions.

Who is the "we"?
Impossible for whom?
What would be the difference if it had said, "It is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance" (which it does not say), instead of, "It is impossible to renew them gain to repentance" (which it does say) ?
AND,
What would be the difference between a teacher telling her class, " It is impossible to swallow a one metre long fish whole", versus " It is impossible for a one metre long fish to be swallowed whole" ?

 

[CS1]

PaulThomson said:
The context of Heb. 6:4 - 6 nuances the meaning of 6:4 - 6.

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Who is the "we"?
Impossible for whom?
What would be the difference if it had said, "It is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance" (which it does not say), instead of, "It is impossible to renew them gain to repentance" (which it does say) ?

What would be the difference between a teacher telling her class, " It is impossible to swallow a one metre long fish whole", versus " It is impossible for a one metre long fish to be swallowed whole" ?



You put absolutely zero thought into my three questions.

Who is the "we"?
Impossible for whom?
What would be the difference if it had said, "It is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance" (which it does not say), instead of, "It is impossible to renew them gain to repentance" (which it does say) ?

FYI Hebrews was written to the Jews.

The context of :

of those who return to the Law for Justification.

1. "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ"


let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.


those who follow Christ will do Teach(doctrine) if God enable to do so.

 

[CS1]

Jesus concludes His admonishment to this particular Pharisaical statement by speaking of "judgment for every empty word," and this supports your summary on that this was spoken in ignorance rather than knowingly.

I agree amen

 

[CS1]

Our God-given logic or reasoning ability leads us to believe that, unless you want to conclude that there are TWO unforgivable sins!

I would conclude that Jesus is the only one who used this term in the Bible, and God-given logic doesn't allow us to add to what has already been said. As I stated earlier, the Greek seems to say that it is not Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit but blasphemy against the work of the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees did not mention the Holy Spirit in their attack on what Jesus did in the healing.

 

[CS1]

Which verse does not have the Greek word for 'he'? I am looking at verse 24. They claimed that Jesus was casting out demons by Beelzebub when actually the Spirit by which He cast out demons was the Holy Spirit.

Good question,

The subject is the action Jesus did casting out a demon; what was the object? Jesus. They claimed he did an action by the ability of a devil. They did not call Jesus a devil, did they? Nor did they mention the Holy Spirit in their claim, did they?

Jesus did not say to the Pharisees YOU have Blasphemyed the Holy Spirit. Jesus said


31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.


33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Here, Jesus did not mix words; HE called the Vipers and said they were evil.

 

[PaulThomson]

FYI Hebrews was written to the Jews.

The context of :

of those who return to the Law for Justification.

1. "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ"


let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.


those who follow Christ will do Teach(doctrine) if God enable to do so.

I disagree that the context here indicates that "we" is "those who follow Christ".

Heb. 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

In his section of the letter "we" is the teachers composing the letter, and "ye/you" are those receiving the letter.

IMHO, the composers are saying that it is impossible for the composers to argue into repentance those who have already be clearly taught the first principles of the gospel but are refusing to walk in those first principles. Therefore the composers will move on to teaching matters that will assist more mature growth toward perfection. They are saying it is impossible for us to bring these stubborn babes to the repentance they have been already instructed in but are wilfully neglecting. They do not say that it is impossible for such babes to be brought to repentance by someone with more clout, such as God, through means that go beyond merely teaching scripture. They may have to learn through the school of hard knocks instead.

 

[CS1]

I disagree that the context here indicates that "we" is "those who follow Christ".

Heb. 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

In his section of the letter "we" is the teachers composing the letter, and "ye/you" are those receiving the letter.

IMHO, the composers are saying that it is impossible for the composers to argue into repentance those who have already be clearly taught the first principles of the gospel but are refusing to walk in those first principles. Therefore, the composers will move on to teaching matters that will assist in more mature growth toward perfection. They are saying it is impossible for us to bring these stubborn babes to the repentance they have been already instructed in but are wilfully neglecting. They do not say that it is impossible for such babes to be brought to repentance by someone with more clout, such as God, through means that go beyond merely teaching scripture. They may have to learn through the school of hard knocks instead.

Yes, those Jews who followed Christ correct, but want to return to the law.

 

[Publican]

Jesus is the only one in the Whole Bible who used this term. And it was in context to saying Jesus was casting out devils by the devil's power. You should not assume who is dammed to hell when Jesus did not say to anyone they Have Blasphemed The Holy Spirit. This sin is one of knowledge that can't be done in ignorance.

Our enemy has tortured many a soul with this scripture.

 

[presidente]

Good question,

The subject is the action Jesus did casting out a demon; what was the object? Jesus. They claimed he did an action by the ability of a devil. They did not call Jesus a devil, did they? Nor did they mention the Holy Spirit in their claim, did they?

Jesus did not say to the Pharisees YOU have Blasphemyed the Holy Spirit. Jesus said


31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.


33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit.
34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Here, Jesus did not mix words; HE called the Vipers and said they were evil.

If the issue weren't them calling the Spirit behind the miracles Beelzebub (an unclean spirit in Luke) why the warning about speaking against the Holy Spirit?

 

[CS1]

If the issue weren't them calling the Spirit behind the miracles Beelzebub (an unclean spirit in Luke) why the warning about speaking against the Holy Spirit?

That too is a very good qestion. I believe the text says first, Jesus speaking those things said "The Son of man will be forgiven them."


This statement is Jesus saying you can say what you want about me ( Jesus called the Pharisee's Brood of Vipers Later ). However, be
Be careful what you say about what I am doing because the Spirit who helped me is the Spirit of God.

 

[GWH]

I would conclude that Jesus is the only one who used this term in the Bible, and God-given logic doesn't allow us to add to what has already been said. As I stated earlier, the Greek seems to say that it is not Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit but blasphemy against the work of the Holy Spirit. The Pharisees did not mention the Holy Spirit in their attack on what Jesus did in the healing.

Well, our God-given right reasoning can help clarify what the canon of Scripture says, and I still suggest that harmonizing LK 12:10 with HB 6:4-6 leads us to the interpretation that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (of any type) is committing apostasy unless one is willing to say that there are two unforgiveable sins.

 

[Cameron143]

Well, our God-given right reasoning can help clarify what the canon of Scripture says, and I still suggest that harmonizing LK 12:10 with HB 6:4-6 leads us to the interpretation that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (of any type) is committing apostasy unless one is willing to say that there are two unforgiveable sins.

Hebrews 6 doesn't say they can't be forgiven. It says it's impossible to renew them to repentance. And that is because there is only salvation in Christ. If one rejects Him, there is nowhere else to go. That is very different from ascribing the works of Christ to Satan.

 

[CS1]

Well, our God-given right reasoning can help clarify what the canon of Scripture says, and I still suggest that harmonizing LK 12:10 with HB 6:4-6 leads us to the interpretation that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (of any type) is committing apostasy unless one is willing to say that there are two unforgiveable sins.

God-given reasoning is not inspired by the word of God, and it is limited due to we bring humans.

The idea is that we can finalize the meaning of "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit " when Jesus is the only one who spoke of it, and it is only said in the Gospels in a few verses; it is descriptive, not normative, that can make an authority doctrine out of what is said.

Apostasy, I do not see. The only thing that is said to be unforgiven is B.O.HS, and Jesus provides the reason for this admonishment.

Jesus is the Judge. Therefore, he is the only one who can say one has B.O.HS. Jesus did not say that in this case or in any other text. We must remain silent where the Bible is silent.

 

[GWH]

God-given reasoning is not inspired by the word of God, and it is limited due to we bring humans.

The idea is that we can finalize the meaning of "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit " when Jesus is the only one who spoke of it, and it is only said in the Gospels in a few verses; it is descriptive, not normative, that can make an authority doctrine out of what is said.

Apostasy, I do not see. The only thing that is said to be unforgiven is B.O.HS, and Jesus provides the reason for this admonishment.

Jesus is the Judge. Therefore, he is the only one who can say one has B.O.HS. Jesus did not say that in this case or in any other text. We must remain silent where the Bible is silent.

Right reasoning may not be inspired in the apostolic sense, but it certainly is derived from what the inspired apostles wrote. Consider for example this condensed passage from Titus: "An elder... must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it... Teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine... but avoid foolish controversies... have nothing to do with divisive persons."

Thus, our reason for reasoning is in order to obey Paul's desire as expressed in Titus and to answer Christ's prayer for spiritual unity in JN 17:15-23. So, regarding the blasphemy/apostasy issue, I see no better way of harmonizing or unifying the two passages about one unforgiveable sin.

 

[CS1]

Right reasoning may not be inspired in the apostolic sense, but it certainly is derived from what the inspired apostles wrote. Consider for example this condensed passage from Titus: "An elder... must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it... Teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine... but avoid foolish controversies... have nothing to do with divisive persons."

Thus, our reason for reasoning is in order to obey Paul's desire as expressed in Titus and to answer Christ's prayer for spiritual unity in JN 17:15-23. So, regarding the blasphemy/apostasy issue, I see no better way of harmonizing or unifying the two passages about one unforgiveable sin.

I hope I am not sounding disagreeable for the sake of the thread. Be here is what I believe and know

1. Jesus is the only one who said this.
2. There is not enough given to say more about it than what Jesus has said
3. many people, Pastors, teachers, and those who ignorantly purposely used the passages to hurt, control, and condemn fellow Christians and people


many do so without considering what Jesus said: " Do not judge." You will be judged by how you judge others.


I am not talking about calling sin, sin, and someone saying, " Don't judge me," or you're judging."

No. I am talking about people who have told others you have "Blasphemied the Holy Spirit."
That is very dangerous ground to be walking on. Nowhere in the word of GOD do I see anyone other than Jesus mention this to people? The Closes is "Why have you lied to the Holy Spirit," and that husband and wife died.


I would never tell a person they have Blasphemy the Holy Spirit. Nor do I think any man today can. So, I leave that with the Lord and search myself fearfully that I am in the faith.

 

[GWH]

I hope I am not sounding disagreeable for the sake of the thread. Be here is what I believe and know

1. Jesus is the only one who said this.
2. There is not enough given to say more about it than what Jesus has said
3. many people, Pastors, teachers, and those who ignorantly purposely used the passages to hurt, control, and condemn fellow Christians and people


many do so without considering what Jesus said: " Do not judge." You will be judged by how you judge others.


I am not talking about calling sin, sin, and someone saying, " Don't judge me," or you're judging."

No. I am talking about people who have told others you have "Blasphemied the Holy Spirit."
That is very dangerous ground to be walking on. Nowhere in the word of GOD do I see anyone other than Jesus mention this to people? The Closes is "Why have you lied to the Holy Spirit," and that husband and wife died.


I would never tell a person they have Blasphemy the Holy Spirit. Nor do I think any man today can. So, I leave that with the Lord and search myself fearfully that I am in the faith.

Well, I would like to point out that the "this" relevant for this discussion is NOT the term "blasphemy" but the phrase "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come", which corresponds with the phrase "It is impossible... if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance" in Hebrews.

 

[CS1]

Well, I would like to point out that the "this" relevant for this discussion is NOT the term "blasphemy" but the phrase "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come", which corresponds with the phrase "It is impossible... if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance" in Hebrews.

I do not see Hebrews saying they will not be forgiven but those who return to justification by the law

 

[PaulThomson]

No. I am talking about people who have told others you have "Blasphemied the Holy Spirit."
That is very dangerous ground to be walking on.

Telling people that having blasphemed the Holy Spirit is unforgivABLE, is worse than telling someone they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit, IMHO.

 

[GWH]

I do not see Hebrews saying they will not be forgiven but those who return to justification by the law

God's forgiveness is conditional upon repentance (MT 1:15), and HB 6:4-6 says it is impossible to bring those who commit apostasy "back to repentance".

 

[Webers.Home]

.
● Heb 5:11-14 . . We have much to say about that, but it is hard to explain
because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be
teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's
word all over again. You need milk, not solid food. Anyone who lives on milk,
being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.
But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves
to distinguish the good from the bad.

Therein the author pointed out that it was time for some of his readers to
move on up to higher ground.

● Heb 6:1-3 . .Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ
and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from
acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the
laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And
God permitting, we will do so.

From this point onward, the author will need God's assistance if he's to have
any success at all getting thru his listeners thick skulls.

● Heb 6:4-6 . . For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and
have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy
Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world
to come; if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an
open shame.

Now the thing to note is that folks unified with Christ have all been made
partakers of the Holy Ghost.

● 2Cor 1:21-22 . . Now he which establishes us with you in Christ, and has
anointed us, is God; who has also sealed us, and given the earnest of the
Spirit in our hearts.

● Eph 1:13-14 . . Christ; in whom you also trusted, after that you heard the
word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you
believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the
earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of his glory.

● Eph 4:30 . . Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed
unto the day of redemption.

So then the folks described as fallen away are not lost, no, the thing they've
gone and done is made themselves unteachable, i.e. indifferent.

Well; seeing as how nothing is impossible with God, then I think it's safe to
posit that He figures believers with that attitude are not worth His time for
now; and any effort on our part to get them interested in advanced Bible
studies would be banging our heads against a brick wall. Oh, they'll make to
Heaven alright, but I suspect they'll be shuttled off to Bible camp to bring
them up to speed with those of us who made the climb to higher ground
while down here instead waiting till we got up there.
_