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Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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I presume you are speaking of the Baptist Confession. I stopped reading the Westminster confession for this same reason. Big brains complicate things at times.
Yes, or even more specifically the London Baptist 1689 confession. (I find myself in more agreement with the first confession of 1646.) But like you I lament how often the writers of those confessions formulate their doctrines out of whole cloth because they could find no support for them in the bible.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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You guess correctly, We don't have Adam's sin imputed to us. Do you have a scripture which says we do?
If Adam's sin is not imputed to the human race, then neither is the Last Adam's righteousness imputed to God's elect. You might want to take up the study of Rom 5:12ff. some day. You do know that Adam is a type of Christ, right?
 

Publican

Active member
Oct 1, 2024
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Yes, or even more specifically the London Baptist 1689 confession. (I find myself in more agreement with the first confession of 1646.) But like you I lament how often the writers of those confessions formulate their doctrines out of whole cloth because they could find no support for them in the bible.
To be honest. I was really happy to receive the Westminster, with scripture references even. But its been a slog and I don't see myself finishing it.
 
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But the unregenerate are totally depraved in the quantitative sense since their entire heart, with all its faculties, is corrupt.
Oh dear, I'm catching a whiff of calvignosticism. Do you believe an unregenerate person can do good works, and by that I mean works that God is well pleased with?
 
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If Adam's sin is not imputed to the human race, then neither is the Last Adam's righteousness imputed to God's elect. You might want to take up the study of Rom 5:12ff. some day. You do know that Adam is a type of Christ, right?
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us via covenant, as our sins were imputed to him. There is no such covenant with Adam so non sequitur
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Oh dear, I'm catching a whiff of calvignosticism. Do you believe an unregenerate person can do good works, and by that I mean works that God is well pleased with?
No he cannot! And the reason why is because none of the good that the unregenerate do is in service to God and done for his glory, honor and praise. And how can bad trees bear good fruit? Also see Rom 3: 12.
 
Nov 1, 2024
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No he cannot! And the reason why is because none of the good that the unregenerate do is in service to God and done for his glory, honor and praise. And how can bad trees bear good fruit? Also see Rom 3: 12.
How is an act of compassion different when done by the unregenerate or when done by a saint? God is glorified whenever his spirit is obeyed. Do you believe the unregenerate cannot obey the holy spirit?
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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If Adam's sin is not imputed to the human race, then neither is the Last Adam's righteousness imputed to God's elect. You might want to take up the study of Rom 5:12ff. some day. You do know that Adam is a type of Christ, right?
Right, So, you have no scripture that says Adam's sin was imputed to anyone else. As I suspected.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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How is an act of compassion different when done by the unregenerate or when done by a saint? God is glorified whenever his spirit is obeyed. Do you believe the unregenerate cannot obey the holy spirit?
Man was created to serve and co-rule this planet with God. A person either lives for God (serves him) or he lives for himself (serving his own self-interests since the uncircumcised of heart are ruled by self, i.e. sin nature (cf. Col 2:11). This is what differentiates saints from sinners. Even though the unregenerate actually do good in this world on the horizontal level, they have no personal, saving, covenantal relationship on the vertical level with God. Whatever "good" they do on the horizontal level will likely mitigate the degree of their eternal punishment but those kinds of good works performed outside of Christ can never save them.

The unregenerate dead have no spiritual ability to obey God or His Spirit. They must be raised from their spiritual tombs firsts.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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Christ's righteousness is imputed to us via covenant, as our sins were imputed to him. There is no such covenant with Adam so non sequitur
Nor one was needed with Adam since he was created "upright" and "very good". Covenants were necessary only with fallen mankind.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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If Adam's sin is not imputed to the human race, then neither is the Last Adam's righteousness imputed to God's elect.
You might want to take up the study of Rom 5:12ff. some day. You do know that Adam is a type of Christ, right?

Romans 5:12 Ephesians 2:3 Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. We were by nature children of wrath.
.:)
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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You don't recall because you have SPMS (Selective Poor Memory Syndrome). You have so soon forgotten how you impugned the integrity of Job (and by extension the entire book) because of your out-of-context interpretation of one verse.

And then you forgot how you tried to pervert the Gen 3:15 passage several months ago because you didn't like what the passage said about the "woman's seed", and I had to correct you by calling to your attention the hermenutical principle of original audience, etc.

Or what about passages like Isa 1:5-8, Jer 17:9, etc. by telling me that my interpretations of these kinds of texts are poor because I lifted them out of context? You try to limit the extent of the application of these passages by arguing that they only applied to Israel, as though either the Gentiles or the Jews are not part of the human race, and therefore, the human condition of man doesn't apply.

So yeah...you certainly are not above twisting and perverting what you don't like.

Finally, From the living Word himself:

Mark 13:31
31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

NIV

So...yeah God's words are as eternal as his Son is.
Right. So, I didn't actually malign, twist, pervert or criticise the scriptures. I merely disagreed with the way you dealt with the scriptures. That's quite a different thing to maligning, twisting, perverting or criticising the scriptures. But you don't seem to be able to recognise that.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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You obviously don't understand what Paul is teaching in Rom 5:12ff.
If it said Adam's sin is imputed to someone else, you would have quoted it and not just given the scripture reference to hide the fact that it doesn't say that, but you are pretending that it does.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

It says that "death passed upon all men", not that "Adam's sin was imputed to all men".
 
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The unregenerate dead have no spiritual ability to obey God or His Spirit. They must be raised from their spiritual tombs firsts.
This is simply not true. Unregens can hear the voice of God as clearly as we can. How can a person who doesn't believe in Christ hear and learn of the father if it is not the holy spirit teaching him?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 6:44-45

And they can obey the holy spirit. How else are they producing fruits of the spirit? We've all seen some unbelievers doing these things

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

So maybe they are following his spirit, but just haven't yet had their eyes opened to the full truth. I'm actually speaking from experience. When God opened my eyes I knew it was the truth because it was the voice I had been following and longing for.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
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This is simply not true. Unregens can hear the voice of God as clearly as we can. How can a person who doesn't believe in Christ hear and learn of the father if it is not the holy spirit teaching him?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 6:44-45

And they can obey the holy spirit. How else are they producing fruits of the spirit? We've all seen some unbelievers doing these things

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

So maybe they are following his spirit, but just haven't yet had their eyes opened to the full truth. I'm actually speaking from experience. When God opened my eyes I knew it was the truth because it was the voice I had been following and longing for.
Only God's elect who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit can produce the fruits of the Spirit. It's an oxymoron to say those in the flesh (in Adam) can either hear the Spirit and produce His fruit.

The only ones who HEAR God are his sheep -- those whom God effectually calls (John 10).
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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If it said Adam's sin is imputed to someone else, you would have quoted it and not just given the scripture reference to hide the fact that it doesn't say that, but you are pretending that it does.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

It says that "death passed upon all men", not that "Adam's sin was imputed to all men".
Well...I'm operating on the assumption that you know how to read. And I did point to the passage in which imputation is clearly taught. But since you, evidently, don't read too swell, here are the specific texts:

Rom 5:15
15 But the gift is not like the trespass.
For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
NIV

And,

Rom 5:18-19
18 Consequently,
just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
NIV

As stated earlier if Adam's sin is not imputed to all his progeny then neither is the Last Adam's perfect obedience imputed to the "many" to make them righteous.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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How is an act of compassion different when done by the unregenerate or when done by a saint? God is glorified whenever his spirit is obeyed. Do you believe the unregenerate cannot obey the holy spirit?
Jesus not only performed every commandment perfectly outwardly, but inwardly as well. This is not true of the unregenerate. There is more to the keeping of a commandment than mere outward conformity. The Pharisees themselves were whited sepulchers full of dead men's bones. So is anyone who only appear outwardly obedient, but who do not have the same inward reality. Thus, a rich man can throw an exorbitant amount into an offering and a poor widow can give a mite and it be far greater.
 
Nov 1, 2024
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Nor one was needed with Adam since he was created "upright" and "very good". Covenants were necessary only with fallen mankind.
You avoided the point I was making. Christ's righteousness was imputed to us via blood covenant exchange, ie, we received his righteousness and he received our sins. Adam had no way to impute his sin to us. Sin isn't a substance that gets incorporated into DNA or flesh