I was wondering who believes you can get unsaved.

[mailmandan]

Simply believing doesn't save a person. It is written that with the heart one believes into righteousness, and with the mouth acknowledgement is made into salvation

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

So, according to you, if a person believes unto righteousness, they are still lost? In Romans 4:5, we read - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. So, does "faith accounted for righteousness" equate to "still lost" according to you?

I've heard certain folks (especially those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

 

[GWH]

I read scripture in context and properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine... I see that you have no rebuttal. You just simply disagree.

...employing God's gift of logic or reasoning, emulating the method of Jesus per Luke 24:27 and Paul in Acts 17:17. Excellent!

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

So, according to you, if a person believes unto righteousness, they are still lost? In Romans 4:5, we read - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. So, does "faith accounted for righteousness" equate to "still lost" according to you?

I've heard certain folks (especially those who attend the church of Christ) misinterpret Romans 10:9-10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week and then we are finally saved next week, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is mute (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth."

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving "lip service" to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

Works of faith do not contradict justification by faith. When Paul contrasts works and faith he is referring to works of law

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

Yes, we have security in Christ as long as we stay in the fold of Christ. Luke 15 proves that we can leave of our own free will and be lost. Consider carefully these things. You don’t want to hold on to a false doctrine or a doctrine made by man (John Calvin). 2 John 9 says if we don’t abide in the doctrine of God, we don’t have God. I want you to be saved, not surprised on judgement day.

(I do not agree with John Calvin and I want to make that clear first) So it's not complete security based on what you're saying because we can lose our salvation (that is, our salvation isn't secure). I believe you cannot be unsaved and also have free will at the same time. God already has chosen an amount to be saved and they are going to be saved no matter what we may or may not do, in other words, God already predestined an amount to be saved before the foundation of the world. Do you believe this? This people God has chosen is called the elect. This people will be saved and are saved no matter what anyone does and this people are God's sheep. There are some (of His sheep, part of the elect) though (as we discussed earlier) that are not yet part of this fold. Now regarding Luke 15 (assuming you're talking about verses 3-5), this lost sheep didn't escape the security of salvation God gives Him. This lost sheep is like one born (as we are all born lost) being part of the elect and Jesus draws those lost sheep into His fold. Sure, by our sin nature we (already being saved and not being unsaved) sometimes doubt, get bored of going to church and reading the Bible, obeying God, etc but Jesus always draws us back and we never at any point lost our salvation. (Just a fun thought, can we lose something that has no end, i.e, eternal life?). The elect, the people God has chosen for Himself, hears Jesus' voice, and they listen.

 

[mailmandan]

Works of faith do not contradict justification by faith. When Paul contrasts works and faith he is referring to works of law

In an effort to get around the truth, people who teach salvation by works often try to turn "not saved by works" passages into saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) but that argument is bogus.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith/good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now which good works could a Christian could do that are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

So when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law of Moses. In Titus 3:5, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. so "not saved by works" is not merely limited to specific works under the law of Moses, but works in general.

 

[Webers.Home]

Yes, we have security in Christ as long as we stay in the fold of Christ. Luke 15 proves that w
can leave of our own free will and be lost.

You've gone and made the sheep's safety the sheep's responsibility when
their safety is actually the shepherd's responsibility.

And besides; animal husbandry isn't democratic, on the contrary: it's quite
despotic, i.e. a rancher's free will trumps the herd's free will. So be advised:
once someone makes the decision to unify with Christ, they relinquish
whatever sovereignty they had as a beast at large and become Christ's
property.

● 1Cor 6:19-20 . .You are not your own; you were bought at a price.

Now; it is the Father's will that Jesus lose none of the sheep entrusted to his
care.

● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.

Jesus claims he never fails to give the One what He wants.

● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

You've as much as cast a nay vote of confidence in Jesus' reliability to
always please the One who sent him. Ouch! That's a huge mistake because
it's necessary to believe in God's son in order to benefit from John 3:16 and
John 5:24.

And should the task prove too much for the shepherd, then the sheep's
safety becomes his Father's responsibility because they together are a tag
team, so to speak.

● John 10:28-29 . . No one can take them out of my hand-- my Father, who
has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one can take them out of
the Father's hand. I and my Father stand together.

"no one" of course includes the sheep seeing as how the Greek word actually
means not even one (man, woman or thing) i.e. none, nobody, nothing.
_

 

[ZNP]

can we keep the arguing down?
I am also looking for biblical quotes. not convictions.
I fall firmly into believing that you can get unsaved, because I did choose not to accept christ. as a concious decision. like, i thought, i dont want it for myself. maybe someday. i believe it to be truth, but i do not accept the truth. I still care about others being and getting saved, but i myself do not want ti.
until I got saved, and truly believe his love now.

I think the problem arises with the definition of saved. These debates are always unprofitable because people do not define clearly from the word of God what the terms are and they assume every term is equal to being saved. The Bible is precise and specific.

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

can we keep the arguing down?
I am also looking for biblical quotes. not convictions.
I fall firmly into believing that you can get unsaved, because I did choose not to accept christ. as a concious decision. like, i thought, i dont want it for myself. maybe someday. i believe it to be truth, but i do not accept the truth. I still care about others being and getting saved, but i myself do not want ti.
until I got saved, and truly believe his love now.

You've gone and made the sheep's safety the sheep's responsibility when
their safety is actually the shepherd's responsibility.

And besides; animal husbandry isn't democratic, on the contrary: it's quite
despotic, i.e. a rancher's free will trumps the herd's free will. So be advised:
once someone makes the decision to unify with Christ, they relinquish
whatever sovereignty they had as a beast at large and become Christ's
property.

● 1Cor 6:19-20 . .You are not your own; you were bought at a price.

Now; it is the Father's will that Jesus lose none of the sheep entrusted to his
care.

● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.

Jesus claims he never fails to give the One what He wants.

● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

You've as much as cast a nay vote of confidence in Jesus' reliability to
always please the One who sent him. Ouch! That's a huge mistake because
it's necessary to believe in God's son in order to benefit from John 3:16 and
John 5:24.

And should the task prove too much for the shepherd, then the sheep's
safety becomes his Father's responsibility because they together are a tag
team, so to speak.

● John 10:28-29 . . No one can take them out of my hand-- my Father, who
has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one can take them out of
the Father's hand. I and my Father stand together.

"no one" of course includes the sheep seeing as how the Greek word actually
means not even one (man, woman or thing) i.e. none, nobody, nothing.
_

I agree with what you say, but the only thing I've got to say here is that we do have free will. I like to think of it on how we (His sheep) are born into sin, being lost, and out of our free will we only choose sin because it's our nature and the only thing we want, so we can't do good (Romans 3). But then God, by the Holy Spirit, gives us a new nature, good desires, so that we now have the ability to free willingly choose righteously because now we have a new desire given by the Holy Spirit to do good for God's glory and to choose and trust in Christ alone for salvation.

 

[Webers.Home]

the only thing I've got to say here is that we do have free will

Speaking for myself: I have enough latitude in the good shepherd's flock to
get myself into all kinds of trouble within the fold.

● Gal 5:13a . . You, my brethren, were called to be free. But do not use your
liberty to indulge the base nature

But I will never be free to break away and go off on my own. Jesus would be
a very irresponsible shepherd were he to let that happen to the sheep his
Father gave him to manage.

● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.

● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

You know, even if Jesus wasn't accountable to his Father for the sheep's
care, I think he would still be conscientious enough to make sure none got
lost. For example:

"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them
wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look
for the one that wandered off?" (Matt 18:12-13)
_

 

[JesusIsSovereign]

Speaking for myself: I have enough latitude in the good shepherd's flock to
get myself into all kinds of trouble within the fold.

● Gal 5:13a . . You, my brethren, were called to be free. But do not use your
liberty to indulge the base nature

But I will never be free to break away and go off on my own. Jesus would be
a very irresponsible shepherd were he to let that happen to the sheep his
Father gave him to manage.

● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the One who sent me: that I should not lose
anything of what He gave me.

● John 8:29 . . I always do what is pleasing to Him.

You know, even if Jesus wasn't accountable to his Father for the sheep's
care, I think he would still be conscientious enough to make sure none got
lost. For example:

"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them
wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look
for the one that wandered off?" (Matt 18:12-13)
_

Jesus always draws His sheep back to Himself, so yeah.