The Religious Spirit vs. The Pharisee Spirit
- Thread starter ValleyAnt
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Okay, but I still don't see the connection to how we achieve unity; that's what I was talking about. According to ValleyAnt, everything is in a state of disunity. My question is: How do we get from a state of disunity to unity? Are you say God will first have to burn up everything that causes disunity?
Okay, so there is so much to be said about everything that we were promised not a Bible but the Holy Spirit. The Bible is good for us because we're human; but the Holy Spirit was the one promised for a reason: "He will guide you into all truth," Jesus said. The Bible gives you a point of reference or a foundation you can see and hear; the Holy Spirit is the one who makes anything happen. As Jesus said, and as the religious leaders of His time exemplify, "The Spirit is He who gives life; the flesh counts for nothing; the words that I have spoken to you, they are spirit and they are life" (Jn. 6:63). Amen. The first "Spirit" (capital S) is the Holy Spirit; the second "spirit" (small s) is 'breath' (words that can do good or bad). Jesus's presenty-proceeding word (rhema), accompanied or spoken by the Holy Spirit, delivers life. The logos (written word, Bible) is unable to do this. Only the Holy Spirit can teach anyone about God and God's will and ways. The Bible wasn't meant to do that nor can it. But we need the Bible because we're weak; the Holy Spirit, however, is more than a need and is needed similar to the way we all need oxygen to live. Without the Holy Spirit, there is no life (power, effect) in what we say, believe, or do just like without oxygen none of us will [physically] live long.
I say all that to preamble what I'm going to say here, because it will not be received from the standpoint of human logic (ie. the carnal man). Years ago when I attended a well-known charismatic church in Atlanta, my best friend at the time-- a new christian-- one day told me, "I don't feel loved here. I don't feel like the people here love me." I immediately responded to him. "Of course they don't love you. They're christians; they don't love anyone." Mind you, I grew up in church and was having a good time at that church... but there was no love [of God] there and so I tried to give him an understanding not of how christians say christians are but on the culture (ie. mindsets, value system, and practices) of christians. He didn't understand and therefore didn't know to guard his heart, so he fell away four years later. I grew up around christians and understood the culture very well, so I guarded my heart, otherwise I woud've fallen away from God just like my then-best friend.
Okay, put what I said on the back burner so you can focus on the rest: in 2012 Jesus told me to leave the institutional churches. ('Institutional church' here refers to churches that meet in buildings as well as churches that meet outside of buildings-- eg. house churches-- but that still carry the scent or mindset and value system of church building churches even if not their practices). God confirmed to me that I was to leave institutional religion before and after Jesus told me to leave it. Jesus explained, in brief, that churches receive Him as Savior but not as Lord and that only as Lord can He function (freely) as He desires to function. Because I was looking for Jesus as Lord, He told me to leave the institutional churches. If I had been content with Jesus only as Savior, He would not have told me to leave the institutional churches. Does that make sense?
In 2Chronicles 7:14 God says that when things are bad, His people must do four things to be back in right standing with Him so that those things that are bad are reversed and made good. This principle always applied and applies today and right now to christians everywhere, especially in the West:
1.) Humility. There are many ways to define humility, but as this applies to the current churches, it means to look at and see yourself as you really are (the good, the bad, the ugly) and then to approach God based on those facts. That is humility. It rarely happens today. Everyone chooses to believe a.) they are good and that b.) their hearts are right. But good is only as good as it does; it is impossible to be good and not do good.
2.) Pray. Prayer as it applies now is the first step to drawing close to God. The Bible says He will draw near as we draw near. A lot of people pray and do religious things without humility, so one can pray without the first step. But everyone who has humility will inevitably pray and draw near to God. It's fascinating how it all works when you step outside of it to look at it. It's like a clock maker who makes a large, giant-sized, beautiful, glass grandfather clock. Inside the clock right up close to all the gears and moving parts, you don't see it as well as when you step out of it, close the glass door, and back away so you can see it from a distance. Up close, your focus was drawn to all the movement in the clock. But at a distance, your focus is drawn to only one thing (the most important thing): the clock works. All things God created-- in the spirit realms, soul realms, and physical realms-- work as they were created to work.
3.) Seek God's Face. This naturally follows the second step. Humility makes people naturally inclined towards God (similar to the way femininity makes a woman naturally inclined to masculinity). Humility leads to the first step which is prayer (submission). And then prayer leads to seeking God. Many people pray here and there; few people seek God. This has always been the case. To seek means to 'persist until'. When Daniel and his three friends went to get the revelation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream from God, they were seeking Him. That was why they persisted until. Prayer is prayer; seeking is seeking. It's different. Isaiah saw this problem in the Israelites of his time and while beseeching God to directly intervene in Israel complained to Him, "There is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You" (Isa. 64:7). When someone seeks God, they are 'calling on Him' (desperate or sincere for an answer or response) which is why Isaiah merges that principle with laying hold of God or persisting until God answers.
4.) Turn From Rebellion. You would think God would put this one first rather than last, but He put it last because you can't turn from rebellion (which symbolizes devotion to God) without first submitting to God (humility), drawing near God (prayer), and earnestly insisting that God makes a personal appearance or answers personally (seeking God). Many try to stop sinning without doing at least the first one (humbling themselves).
You don't need the Holy Spirit's discernment to go to a church and just stand still (step away from the noise and sound for a few minutes) and just look at what is going on inside the church and how things operate. An atheist, agnostic, satanist (for absolute sure), and anyone else will see the overall lack if they just get still and look. They will not be able to observe God there. So, is there anything salvageable in churches or do people need to start from scratch? Both. Jesus can't enter institutional churches (their programs are like sentinels outside and Jesus is at the door in case anyone opens it for Him), but the Holy Spirit still blesses the people inside the building or meeting whenever He can, [also] from outside the church meeting. And then there has to be a restoration of the original model, a reformation of things back to the way they were in the beginning or at the start. Jesus said to those who come to Him "you will find rest for your souls." How? God told Jeremiah to say to Israel, "Stand in the ways and look (see), ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; then you will find rest for your souls. But [Israel] said, 'We will not walk in it'"(Jer. 6:16). The Ancient Paths and Jesus are the same (He is 'the Way'). But like Israel said and lived in the past, so most christians think and live "Nope."
Summary: a living and actual relationship (with communication and obedience part and parcel) are required for unity among believers. Each believer must be in relationship with God so that when they get together, they will be... in unity of course. If two christians come together and one serves Jesus as Savior (ie. serves himself and what he can get out of the deal) while the other serves Jesus as Lord, they cannot be unified; it's impossible. Unity among believers has to be among those who are unified with Jesus. The unity is in Him; it isn't in christians or in churches. Ps. 133 is talking about a type of unity that only the Holy Spirit brings; those who agree with the Holy Spirit will then automatically be unified together. christianity might be a club, but God isn't a christian: christian or not, you are either for Him or against Him. The religion, church, group, organization, or club won't save anyone. So, this is the only way unity is done. And when it happens, even in small measure (eg. just two or three believers), everyone in the area will sense it, even people's pets and animals, because "the Lord is there". (Mal. 3:16-18; Matt. 18:20.)
I say all that to preamble what I'm going to say here, because it will not be received from the standpoint of human logic (ie. the carnal man). Years ago when I attended a well-known charismatic church in Atlanta, my best friend at the time-- a new christian-- one day told me, "I don't feel loved here. I don't feel like the people here love me." I immediately responded to him. "Of course they don't love you. They're christians; they don't love anyone." Mind you, I grew up in church and was having a good time at that church... but there was no love [of God] there and so I tried to give him an understanding not of how christians say christians are but on the culture (ie. mindsets, value system, and practices) of christians. He didn't understand and therefore didn't know to guard his heart, so he fell away four years later. I grew up around christians and understood the culture very well, so I guarded my heart, otherwise I woud've fallen away from God just like my then-best friend.
Okay, put what I said on the back burner so you can focus on the rest: in 2012 Jesus told me to leave the institutional churches. ('Institutional church' here refers to churches that meet in buildings as well as churches that meet outside of buildings-- eg. house churches-- but that still carry the scent or mindset and value system of church building churches even if not their practices). God confirmed to me that I was to leave institutional religion before and after Jesus told me to leave it. Jesus explained, in brief, that churches receive Him as Savior but not as Lord and that only as Lord can He function (freely) as He desires to function. Because I was looking for Jesus as Lord, He told me to leave the institutional churches. If I had been content with Jesus only as Savior, He would not have told me to leave the institutional churches. Does that make sense?
In 2Chronicles 7:14 God says that when things are bad, His people must do four things to be back in right standing with Him so that those things that are bad are reversed and made good. This principle always applied and applies today and right now to christians everywhere, especially in the West:
1.) Humility. There are many ways to define humility, but as this applies to the current churches, it means to look at and see yourself as you really are (the good, the bad, the ugly) and then to approach God based on those facts. That is humility. It rarely happens today. Everyone chooses to believe a.) they are good and that b.) their hearts are right. But good is only as good as it does; it is impossible to be good and not do good.
2.) Pray. Prayer as it applies now is the first step to drawing close to God. The Bible says He will draw near as we draw near. A lot of people pray and do religious things without humility, so one can pray without the first step. But everyone who has humility will inevitably pray and draw near to God. It's fascinating how it all works when you step outside of it to look at it. It's like a clock maker who makes a large, giant-sized, beautiful, glass grandfather clock. Inside the clock right up close to all the gears and moving parts, you don't see it as well as when you step out of it, close the glass door, and back away so you can see it from a distance. Up close, your focus was drawn to all the movement in the clock. But at a distance, your focus is drawn to only one thing (the most important thing): the clock works. All things God created-- in the spirit realms, soul realms, and physical realms-- work as they were created to work.
3.) Seek God's Face. This naturally follows the second step. Humility makes people naturally inclined towards God (similar to the way femininity makes a woman naturally inclined to masculinity). Humility leads to the first step which is prayer (submission). And then prayer leads to seeking God. Many people pray here and there; few people seek God. This has always been the case. To seek means to 'persist until'. When Daniel and his three friends went to get the revelation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream from God, they were seeking Him. That was why they persisted until. Prayer is prayer; seeking is seeking. It's different. Isaiah saw this problem in the Israelites of his time and while beseeching God to directly intervene in Israel complained to Him, "There is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You" (Isa. 64:7). When someone seeks God, they are 'calling on Him' (desperate or sincere for an answer or response) which is why Isaiah merges that principle with laying hold of God or persisting until God answers.
4.) Turn From Rebellion. You would think God would put this one first rather than last, but He put it last because you can't turn from rebellion (which symbolizes devotion to God) without first submitting to God (humility), drawing near God (prayer), and earnestly insisting that God makes a personal appearance or answers personally (seeking God). Many try to stop sinning without doing at least the first one (humbling themselves).
You don't need the Holy Spirit's discernment to go to a church and just stand still (step away from the noise and sound for a few minutes) and just look at what is going on inside the church and how things operate. An atheist, agnostic, satanist (for absolute sure), and anyone else will see the overall lack if they just get still and look. They will not be able to observe God there. So, is there anything salvageable in churches or do people need to start from scratch? Both. Jesus can't enter institutional churches (their programs are like sentinels outside and Jesus is at the door in case anyone opens it for Him), but the Holy Spirit still blesses the people inside the building or meeting whenever He can, [also] from outside the church meeting. And then there has to be a restoration of the original model, a reformation of things back to the way they were in the beginning or at the start. Jesus said to those who come to Him "you will find rest for your souls." How? God told Jeremiah to say to Israel, "Stand in the ways and look (see), ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; then you will find rest for your souls. But [Israel] said, 'We will not walk in it'"(Jer. 6:16). The Ancient Paths and Jesus are the same (He is 'the Way'). But like Israel said and lived in the past, so most christians think and live "Nope."
Summary: a living and actual relationship (with communication and obedience part and parcel) are required for unity among believers. Each believer must be in relationship with God so that when they get together, they will be... in unity of course. If two christians come together and one serves Jesus as Savior (ie. serves himself and what he can get out of the deal) while the other serves Jesus as Lord, they cannot be unified; it's impossible. Unity among believers has to be among those who are unified with Jesus. The unity is in Him; it isn't in christians or in churches. Ps. 133 is talking about a type of unity that only the Holy Spirit brings; those who agree with the Holy Spirit will then automatically be unified together. christianity might be a club, but God isn't a christian: christian or not, you are either for Him or against Him. The religion, church, group, organization, or club won't save anyone. So, this is the only way unity is done. And when it happens, even in small measure (eg. just two or three believers), everyone in the area will sense it, even people's pets and animals, because "the Lord is there". (Mal. 3:16-18; Matt. 18:20.)
I haven't learned much, but I've learned enough to pay attention to basically everything. And that teaches you much.
Thanks for super-concisely summarizing the distinction between the religious spirit and the Pharisee spirit: "The difference I see between a religious spirit and a Pharisee spirit is that the former commonly refers to someone who thinks going to church and/or confessing sins weekly on Saturday suffices, whereas the latter... consists of having an ungodly judgmental spirit." I prefer to be that concise. Having my mind on other things doesn't work very well for being brief.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness." For all christians, that hunger and thirst is [meant to be] the starting point (and also the effect) of a genuine touch from God. I became a christian around age seven, but at age eighteen, I had a sudden encounter with God. From age seven, I just went to church weekly but had no hunger for God; but from age eighteen, I was truly able to say with David, whether they told me in the daytime or at night, "I rejoiced when they said to me, 'Let us go to the house of the Lord'" (Psalm 122:1).
Thanks for super-concisely summarizing the distinction between the religious spirit and the Pharisee spirit: "The difference I see between a religious spirit and a Pharisee spirit is that the former commonly refers to someone who thinks going to church and/or confessing sins weekly on Saturday suffices, whereas the latter... consists of having an ungodly judgmental spirit." I prefer to be that concise. Having my mind on other things doesn't work very well for being brief.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness." For all christians, that hunger and thirst is [meant to be] the starting point (and also the effect) of a genuine touch from God. I became a christian around age seven, but at age eighteen, I had a sudden encounter with God. From age seven, I just went to church weekly but had no hunger for God; but from age eighteen, I was truly able to say with David, whether they told me in the daytime or at night, "I rejoiced when they said to me, 'Let us go to the house of the Lord'" (Psalm 122:1).
It's not a comment on the length of the opening post, but on the variety and vehemence of the responses... as in "popcorn for munching while I sit back and watch the drama unfold. It's a somewhat common metaphor used on this site. 
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Well, because I was raised by Christian parents who attended Sunday School and church regularly, there never was a time when I rejected Jesus, and my social life revolved around the church youth group and choir, but unfortunately the instruction in GW did not go beyond the basic evangel and prepare me to give the reason for the hope of heaven that I had, so I made up lost ground by reading GW completely through in the NEB, the TEV and the NIV and figuring out the biblical answers to atheist arguments that way, although my ignorance at the age of twenty did motivate me to become a minister of education.
Cant believe I am seeing someone defending the Pharisee sect on a Christian forum!
Look at the verse in Acts 23:6
"But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question."
The idea was to make them squabble amongst themselves.
Look at the verse in Acts 23:6
"But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question."
The idea was to make them squabble amongst themselves.