What do you mean? Who will burn them to the ground, the Lord? I don't see the connection between this and unity in Christ.
The Religious Spirit vs. The Pharisee Spirit
- Thread starter ValleyAnt
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What do you mean? Who will burn them to the ground, the Lord? I don't see the connection between this and unity in Christ.
When I said 'rest' I meant everything pertaining to the world, including the religious world, that quenches the spirit and truth of God. Man himself will destroy this as ordered by God.
Okay, but I still don't see the connection to how we achieve unity; that's what I was talking about. According to ValleyAnt, everything is in a state of disunity. My question is: How do we get from a state of disunity to unity? Are you say God will first have to burn up everything that causes disunity?
Repent and pray for unity. Only God can do it, we can't. But that will only happen when man's world begins to be destroyed, and is destroyed, because of the hardness of their heart
Okay, so there is so much to be said about everything that we were promised not a Bible but the Holy Spirit. The Bible is good for us because we're human; but the Holy Spirit was the one promised for a reason: "He will guide you into all truth," Jesus said. The Bible gives you a point of reference or a foundation you can see and hear; the Holy Spirit is the one who makes anything happen. As Jesus said, and as the religious leaders of His time exemplify, "The Spirit is He who gives life; the flesh counts for nothing; the words that I have spoken to you, they are spirit and they are life" (Jn. 6:63). Amen. The first "Spirit" (capital S) is the Holy Spirit; the second "spirit" (small s) is 'breath' (words that can do good or bad). Jesus's presenty-proceeding word (rhema), accompanied or spoken by the Holy Spirit, delivers life. The logos (written word, Bible) is unable to do this. Only the Holy Spirit can teach anyone about God and God's will and ways. The Bible wasn't meant to do that nor can it. But we need the Bible because we're weak; the Holy Spirit, however, is more than a need and is needed similar to the way we all need oxygen to live. Without the Holy Spirit, there is no life (power, effect) in what we say, believe, or do just like without oxygen none of us will [physically] live long.
I say all that to preamble what I'm going to say here, because it will not be received from the standpoint of human logic (ie. the carnal man). Years ago when I attended a well-known charismatic church in Atlanta, my best friend at the time-- a new christian-- one day told me, "I don't feel loved here. I don't feel like the people here love me." I immediately responded to him. "Of course they don't love you. They're christians; they don't love anyone." Mind you, I grew up in church and was having a good time at that church... but there was no love [of God] there and so I tried to give him an understanding not of how christians say christians are but on the culture (ie. mindsets, value system, and practices) of christians. He didn't understand and therefore didn't know to guard his heart, so he fell away four years later. I grew up around christians and understood the culture very well, so I guarded my heart, otherwise I woud've fallen away from God just like my then-best friend.
Okay, put what I said on the back burner so you can focus on the rest: in 2012 Jesus told me to leave the institutional churches. ('Institutional church' here refers to churches that meet in buildings as well as churches that meet outside of buildings-- eg. house churches-- but that still carry the scent or mindset and value system of church building churches even if not their practices). God confirmed to me that I was to leave institutional religion before and after Jesus told me to leave it. Jesus explained, in brief, that churches receive Him as Savior but not as Lord and that only as Lord can He function (freely) as He desires to function. Because I was looking for Jesus as Lord, He told me to leave the institutional churches. If I had been content with Jesus only as Savior, He would not have told me to leave the institutional churches. Does that make sense?
In 2Chronicles 7:14 God says that when things are bad, His people must do four things to be back in right standing with Him so that those things that are bad are reversed and made good. This principle always applied and applies today and right now to christians everywhere, especially in the West:
1.) Humility. There are many ways to define humility, but as this applies to the current churches, it means to look at and see yourself as you really are (the good, the bad, the ugly) and then to approach God based on those facts. That is humility. It rarely happens today. Everyone chooses to believe a.) they are good and that b.) their hearts are right. But good is only as good as it does; it is impossible to be good and not do good.
2.) Pray. Prayer as it applies now is the first step to drawing close to God. The Bible says He will draw near as we draw near. A lot of people pray and do religious things without humility, so one can pray without the first step. But everyone who has humility will inevitably pray and draw near to God. It's fascinating how it all works when you step outside of it to look at it. It's like a clock maker who makes a large, giant-sized, beautiful, glass grandfather clock. Inside the clock right up close to all the gears and moving parts, you don't see it as well as when you step out of it, close the glass door, and back away so you can see it from a distance. Up close, your focus was drawn to all the movement in the clock. But at a distance, your focus is drawn to only one thing (the most important thing): the clock works. All things God created-- in the spirit realms, soul realms, and physical realms-- work as they were created to work.
3.) Seek God's Face. This naturally follows the second step. Humility makes people naturally inclined towards God (similar to the way femininity makes a woman naturally inclined to masculinity). Humility leads to the first step which is prayer (submission). And then prayer leads to seeking God. Many people pray here and there; few people seek God. This has always been the case. To seek means to 'persist until'. When Daniel and his three friends went to get the revelation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream from God, they were seeking Him. That was why they persisted until. Prayer is prayer; seeking is seeking. It's different. Isaiah saw this problem in the Israelites of his time and while beseeching God to directly intervene in Israel complained to Him, "There is no one who calls on Your name, who stirs himself up to take hold of You" (Isa. 64:7). When someone seeks God, they are 'calling on Him' (desperate or sincere for an answer or response) which is why Isaiah merges that principle with laying hold of God or persisting until God answers.
4.) Turn From Rebellion. You would think God would put this one first rather than last, but He put it last because you can't turn from rebellion (which symbolizes devotion to God) without first submitting to God (humility), drawing near God (prayer), and earnestly insisting that God makes a personal appearance or answers personally (seeking God). Many try to stop sinning without doing at least the first one (humbling themselves).
You don't need the Holy Spirit's discernment to go to a church and just stand still (step away from the noise and sound for a few minutes) and just look at what is going on inside the church and how things operate. An atheist, agnostic, satanist (for absolute sure), and anyone else will see the overall lack if they just get still and look. They will not be able to observe God there. So, is there anything salvageable in churches or do people need to start from scratch? Both. Jesus can't enter institutional churches (their programs are like sentinels outside and Jesus is at the door in case anyone opens it for Him), but the Holy Spirit still blesses the people inside the building or meeting whenever He can, [also] from outside the church meeting. And then there has to be a restoration of the original model, a reformation of things back to the way they were in the beginning or at the start. Jesus said to those who come to Him "you will find rest for your souls." How? God told Jeremiah to say to Israel, "Stand in the ways and look (see), ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is, and walk in it; then you will find rest for your souls. But [Israel] said, 'We will not walk in it'"(Jer. 6:16). The Ancient Paths and Jesus are the same (He is 'the Way'). But like Israel said and lived in the past, so most christians think and live "Nope."
Summary: a living and actual relationship (with communication and obedience part and parcel) are required for unity among believers. Each believer must be in relationship with God so that when they get together, they will be... in unity of course. If two christians come together and one serves Jesus as Savior (ie. serves himself and what he can get out of the deal) while the other serves Jesus as Lord, they cannot be unified; it's impossible. Unity among believers has to be among those who are unified with Jesus. The unity is in Him; it isn't in christians or in churches. Ps. 133 is talking about a type of unity that only the Holy Spirit brings; those who agree with the Holy Spirit will then automatically be unified together. christianity might be a club, but God isn't a christian: christian or not, you are either for Him or against Him. The religion, church, group, organization, or club won't save anyone. So, this is the only way unity is done. And when it happens, even in small measure (eg. just two or three believers), everyone in the area will sense it, even people's pets and animals, because "the Lord is there". (Mal. 3:16-18; Matt. 18:20.)
I haven't learned much, but I've learned enough to pay attention to basically everything. And that teaches you much.
Thanks for super-concisely summarizing the distinction between the religious spirit and the Pharisee spirit: "The difference I see between a religious spirit and a Pharisee spirit is that the former commonly refers to someone who thinks going to church and/or confessing sins weekly on Saturday suffices, whereas the latter... consists of having an ungodly judgmental spirit." I prefer to be that concise. Having my mind on other things doesn't work very well for being brief.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness." For all christians, that hunger and thirst is [meant to be] the starting point (and also the effect) of a genuine touch from God. I became a christian around age seven, but at age eighteen, I had a sudden encounter with God. From age seven, I just went to church weekly but had no hunger for God; but from age eighteen, I was truly able to say with David, whether they told me in the daytime or at night, "I rejoiced when they said to me, 'Let us go to the house of the Lord'" (Psalm 122:1).
It's not a comment on the length of the opening post, but on the variety and vehemence of the responses... as in "popcorn for munching while I sit back and watch the drama unfold. It's a somewhat common metaphor used on this site.
I know it was a joke. I was joking too. You helped me without meaning to.
Well, because I was raised by Christian parents who attended Sunday School and church regularly, there never was a time when I rejected Jesus, and my social life revolved around the church youth group and choir, but unfortunately the instruction in GW did not go beyond the basic evangel and prepare me to give the reason for the hope of heaven that I had, so I made up lost ground by reading GW completely through in the NEB, the TEV and the NIV and figuring out the biblical answers to atheist arguments that way, although my ignorance at the age of twenty did motivate me to become a minister of education.
Cant believe I am seeing someone defending the Pharisee sect on a Christian forum!
Look at the verse in Acts 23:6
"But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question."
The idea was to make them squabble amongst themselves.
Yes and no.
Let's use chronos and kairos. Chronos is chronological time (Monday, Tuesday, last night, tomorrow afternoon, 2025, etc.). Kairos is defined as 'a time when conditions are right for the accomplishment of a crucial action'. So, if you're married, you can set a date with your wife and that will be chronos; or you can (if you're luck enough to be a spontaneous and adventurous person) decide on the spur of the moment to take her on a date... right after both of you got caught and wet in a thunderstorm (how about that).
God has chronos times and kairos times. Just as with people, God has far far far more kairos times than chronos times. Any time that conditions are right for God to move is a kairos time. The Bible says-- and Jesus exemplified (which the religious hated)-- that every single day the conditions are right for God to move, saying, "Today is the day of salvation" and "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved". Everyday is a good day to bless someone else, especially a fellow christian; everyday is a good day to comfort, heal, or build up someone else; everyday is a good day to fellowship with other believers with Jesus 'in the midst'; everyday is a good day for miracles and signs; everyday is a good day for healing sick, delivering those who are bound by satan, and raising the dead; everyday is a good day for reformation, revivals, and spiritual awakenings. But because the churches are currently sick, powerless, and useless for these things in the kairos, then God must wait to perform and experience them in the chronos times He pre-set. God wants all these things done now. But the carnal nature instinctively opposes and is a very real enemy of God, and christians who are submitted to and walking in their carnal nature are at odds with God and cannot do or see these things done. That is what we're experiencing now.
In God's kairos times, He wants christians to be unified now. But since that isn't happening now, God has a backup for that (as He has for everything): His chronos times, set for specific dates and times later. So, since God wants things to happen now and He knew they wouldn't why didn't He set another plan to make them happen now instead of later? Because kairos times are under the dominion of human [free] will while chronos times are entirely under the dominion of God's will (eg. the day of Jesus's return). Of course, both times can and do merge (eg. God 'chronos sending' Jesus to earth as a baby while also 'kairos moving' certain people (like Anna) to pray for Jesus's arrival).
In Isaiah 59, the Bible talks about occult ritual abuse (one of many places it does). That's not the only thing that passage is talking about but it's just easier to use right now. In that chapter, God first speaks to victims of ritual abuse who-- due to the sins they were forced to partake in (eg. taking covenants with satan/other gods, molesting and raping, using witchcraft, sacrificing and murdering, etc.)-- cannot make contact with God to intervene on their behalf. God then speaks to/about the occultists/perpetrators of that occult abuse and describes the witchcraft they traffick in ("the spider's web") and the constant lack of peace they experience (due to and also as a result of their adversarial/hostile/rebellious/chaotic nature). You then see the occult victims/survivors speak to each other, stating that because of their [forced] occult involvement, coupled with their desire to be free/apart from rather than with the occult, they cannot experience rest (they experience chaos) or rescue no matter how they try. God then speaks and says that He is [angry] that no one has intervened to help these people and that as a result He will do it Himself.
So, in Isa. 59 you get to see kairos times distinguished from chronos times. But you also get to see both times working together. When God says there that He will intervene Himself since no one else would do it, He is actually distinguishing between two types of 'christians': those who will and those who won't (only God knows who is who). God knows who will and won't be saved, and He gives those who won't be saved time to obey Him. When they don't, He then releases or 'sends' those who will obey. In Isa. 59, God waited for the everyday christian to intervene and rescue captives; He was 'surprised' that they wouldn't act (He wasn't really surprised but that's the only way we humans can translate what He felt; to see people neglecting other people in spite of great and extreme need is both fascinating and abominable). When the everyday christian doesn't act, then God 'brings' out the people who will in fact act. (He knows who they are.) It is through them that He gets to act; this is why in Isa. 59 He says He will be the one acting. He rarely acts alone; He does most of (no less than 90%) of His activity on earth through humans, and those most in sync with Him are those who are most accessible/useful to Him.
Gideon gathered 32,000 men for battle. God acted through 300 because only 300 made themselves of actual use to Him. This is how it is right now and how it will be. So, we aren't waiting on God nearly as much as He's waiting on us. He doesn't want unity just later (chronos); He wants it now (kairos). But because most christians don't want it now, He will give them time to repent while also making use of His chronos time. When His chronos times come to act, He will release those who act not only with His chronos times but also with His kairos times. I sure hope that makes sense because if you think God prefers unity (and therefore blessings) later and not now, well.
What is GW?
As for ministering to atheists, you can do it the complicated but easy way (figuring out biblical answers to their arguments) or you can do it the simple but hard way (asking God to give you the words and learning to hear from Him when He does).
Modern christianity is unnecessarily complicated and therefore it does very little for anyone and everyone. I used to chat with this guy at a restaurant and we became buddies. One day I mentioned the Bible and he realized I was 'one of those christians', so for the next about two minutes he vented and railed and ranted about how much he hated and couldn't stand God. I chose to take the simple but hard way and, listening to his spirit (ie. his actual communication, what he was really saying, how he really felt/believed), when he finally ran out of steam I simply told him, "God isn't a christian; and christians aren't God." I said this because in spite of what he was saying out o his mouth (that he hated God), he actually hated christians who had mistreated him and therefore made God look bad. I communicated to him that God isn't a christian and isn't on the side of christians. He went totally quiet and that made a tremendous impact on him.
If, for instance, you work with an atheist, rather than trying to convince or argue or debate or whatever, you can just tell him, "God is a real Person, and He cares about people" and just leave it at that and then live a life that shows that you aren't a selfish performer like everyone else. The atheist might pretend like your words had no effect on him and pridefully try to argue with you, but telling an atheist that God is a Person (and that being a person, He cares about people) has a tremendous impact on them because you humanize God and then claim God, being 'human', must also care about humans. The word 'love' isn't as powerful as the word 'care' (not to the average person) because almost 100% of the time (at least subconsciously) people equate love to feelings while [definitely subconsciously) they equate care to actions. There's a saying that the best romantic relationships are when the woman loves the man and the man likes the woman. There's a lot of truth in that. That atheist at work will watch you, your lifestyle and how you relate to people.
Jesus didn't give the great commission to everyone but to certain ministers (and then anyone else He would 'send' into that great commission). Saying He gave it to everyone is just more misunderstanding where we already have more than enough misunderstanding. It is a specific commission; it isn't for everyone nor is it for only specific callings (eg. apostles) but is for 'specific whosoevers' that Jesus indicates and chooses to call whenever He chooses to call them. In Acts 13, the Holy Spirit indicates Paul and Barnabas and calls them to that particular commission. You will note that there were others there who were not also chosen. A husband and wife are both supposed to work; but if the husband is the one who goes out to work, then he is called specifically to that. Both are working, but only one is 'sent' to work. Jesus, however, tells how believers are to 'witness' and it has nothing to do with missionary work and neighborhood evangelism: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in Heaven" He said (Matt. 5:16). Does God want to recruit people called christians who 'follow Him' by obligation as being part of the same club, or does He want to be glorified so people will follow Him of their free will? Most witnessing is to be passive (let your light shine) as a lighthouse, not active (shine your light) like a flashlight.
Atheists (and everyone else) learn best through the biblical lighthouse example (say little and do much), not the unbiblical flashlight example (say much and do little). christians are not supposed to say much (the Bible is replete with this truth, telling believers to live quiet lives). Only some are called to the flashlight model, and some are called to fulfill it at times, but the greater calling for both those called and not called to the flashlight model is the lighthouse model. We have many examples (the multitudes of people wounded by christians) that shining your light harms rather than heals people, so let your light shine instead. Passive, fixed lights (eg. the sun, a lighthouse, etc.) never harm people because people choose whether or not to look at them; actively shining lights in people's faces can and does harm people. Everybody disagrees and debates. Give people something different.
"We urge you, brothers and sisters, to [love one another] more and more and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you, so that your daily life will win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody" (1Thessalonians 4:10-12).
GW is God's Word.
Ministering to atheists can be done in a variety of ways in accordance with one's personality and abilities, simply for children and more complicated for adults.
Since there are no good reasons to be an atheist, they often use the imperfections of Christians as an excuse for their faith.
My motivation for learning God's answers to atheist arguments is to equip fellow Christians, because I was so ill-prepared at the age of twenty after having been raised with SBC preaching aimed at getting folks to walk the aisle during the weekly invitation.
I have interacted with atheists only a few times. Once when I presented my beliefs at a meeting of the Atheists of Austin and more extensively by participating in an online forum similar to Christian Chat--and I did let discussion devolve into argumentation too many times.
I base my efforts more on 1PT 3:15-16 than on MT 28:19-20. "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in Heaven" is a good Scripture, too.
LIC, GW
Yes, everyone is designed differently and approaches things differently. In Romans 12:6-8, Paul talks about seven aspects of God's character. The Bible says we only know in part, so no one knows anything perfectly. What the charismatics have discovered here isn't perfect, but it's true. Charismatics say there are three different types of gifts given by each member of the Godhead (sounds legit to me):
1.) Motivational Gifts: Everyone is born with one of these to dictate the way they view, interpret, and relate to the world. It is your primary design regarding that, and God is in charge of Design. If you have two or more children or one of your close friends does, you can spot these distinct gifts in each one if you know what to look for. (You can see a trace of these even in animals and their different personalities.) This is an article on these gifts: https://iblp.org/what-are-seven-motivational-gifts/.
2.) Manifestational Gifts: Paul mentions these in 1Corinthians 12 and says that the Holy Spirit is the Member of the Godhead who distributes these "as He wills". Everyone who receives the baptism of the Holy Spirit will have one or more of these.
3.) Ministerial Gifts: The five main ones are listed in Ephesians 4:11 along with their purpose (ie. to make God's people perfect/holy as God is Himself-- a really tall order). Others among these include positions like deacon and elder, etc. Jesus distributes these according to Eph. 4:7-10 which says, "When He ascended on high, He led captives in His train and gave gifts to men."
Any mixture of these affects how each person 'ministers'. But one doesn't have to be limited to 'the way he/she is'. People make changes, and should make changes, depending on different circumstances and situations. There are people in the Bible (OT and NT) who set out doing something one way and then who realized they should do it another way. In 1Cor. 2, Paul said, "I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." He changed his methods as he grew and as each situation called for it. If you will be 'all things to all men', like Jesus was, then it will be important to learn to switch things up. But there is a time for everything-- a time to debate with atheists and a time to just let the Holy Spirit apprehend them by Himself. You can get into arguments and strife using the first method; but you might get persecution and suffering using the second.
Finally, 1Peter 3:15-16 says, "Sanctify (set apart) the Lord God (Christ as Lord) in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear-- having a good conscience-- that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed." Christ as Lord will direct you beyond your original inclinations: if your inclination is to debate, He might direct you not to; and if your inclination is to not debate, He might direct you to. Follow His lead. The rest of the passage talks about being defamed (speech) for your conduct (actions). Your actions are always a greater focus. Actions are greater than words, and the greatest power of the person who isn't in Christ is his words. Yours are your actions. Yes, there are good christian debaters against atheists (eg. creationists). But words mostly have power the way seeds have power: if you plant them and then you keep poking, stirring, turning up, and tossing them around, good luck getting any results (this is what debating is like). But if you plant them and then leave them alone to grow (as all farmers know and as per the parable of the sower), then they might grow.
The fact is that the more people mature, both naturally and spiritually, the more we will respect everyone's free choice (just as we want others to respect our free choice) and the less we will speak. This doesn't mean you won't speak much. It means you'll realize that the power isn't in speech. (I don't want to fall to someone's convincing arguments but rather want to come to a decision on my own. So, why would I want someone to fall to my own convincing arguments?) It's easy to misconstrue and misrepresent someone's words, something many people do with the Bible (eg. the Bible seems to say that one cannot receive healing from God without faith). But it's hard to misrepresent someone's actions or the actions we see in the Bible (eg. Jesus and His ministers heal everyone who comes to them every time, whether or not the person has faith). Words are endless; people always make claims. But actions are rare. As Aesop said, "After all is said and done, more is said than done." All things considered, at the end of the day if you're going to discuss with atheists or people who don't believe in God, what Theodore Roosevelt said applies: "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
While it is true that what Paul said caused dissension that does not mean that what he said was false. If we take Paul at his word, then most of the NT was written by a Pharisee. Moreover, in 1 Corinthians 11:1, we are told to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ, so we are instructed to be an imitator of a Pharisee. In Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus instructed His followers to do and observe all that the Pharisees said, but not to follow their example of hypocrisy of doing things for show.
Why should it be ok for people who don't have anywhere close to the dedication to obey God's word as the Pharisees had to speak derogatorily about them in a Christian forum?
In ACTS 26:4-29 Paul shares his bio about being a devout Pharisee who persecuted Christians before experiencing a vision of Jesus and becoming a Christian.
Jesus fulfilled the OT law for Jews that was taught by the Pharisees and also founded the NT law of love for all, condemning the Pharisees who opposed him to hell in JN 8.
I think the threefold gifts analysis is valid. My motivation since adolescence has been to learn the truth/GW, especially concerning ultimate reality and GRFS. My manifestation gift would be related to wisdom and knowledge, mainly using logical reasoning to edit and harmonize GW so Scripture interprets Scripture as much as possible. And my ministerial gift would be learner-teacher-equipper.
I note that it was Paul rather than Jesus who sought to be all things to all men, and I agree that our behavior should align with our beliefs so that we won't be hypocrites. What you note as the challenge not to misconstrue and misrepresent someone's words including GW is related to what I refer to as the challenge to communicate clearly, concisely and completely.
Dude, if you have a point you should really learn the art of using fewer words. As it is, I get the impression you don't have a point, but are just trying to show everyone how intelligent you are with your many words. Nothing personal, but I don't have time to waste anymore on this thread.
Paul was a pharisee who repented of the works of pharisees to follow Jesus. By no means did he practice what they did after his conversion. Jesus told his countrymen who were under the law to follow those who were teachers of the law. That was a perfectly reasonable thing to say to them at the time because who else were they going to go to for instruction? However, it makes no sense to tell those who are not under the law, ie all gentiles, to keep a law they have never been under, and by extension to become imitators of those who were obsessed with following the law rather than Christ.