The Religious Spirit vs. The Pharisee Spirit

[Soyeong]

I think our main and perhaps only stumbling block to complete agreement is your ignorance of HB 7:18-10:1. "Superseding" means amending and reforming rather than abolishing. The main amendment/reform cited by Paul in EPH 2:11-3:12 is that God loves and wants to save everyone--not only Jews (cf. 1TM 2:3-4), which is why one (JN 13:35) or two (MT 22:37-40) commandments can summarize or replace--make that supersede--the Mosaic Laws.

I don't think that Hebrews should be interpreted as speaking against obeying God's commands. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to ad to or subtract from the Torah, so it has not been supersede. God did not make any mistakes when He gave the Torah that needed amending. The greatest two commandments of the Torah are to love God and our neighbor, so following those commandments is not doing something other than obeying the Torah. Everything commanded in the Torah is either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. So the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them, such as if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Torah. If for example someone thought that the greatest two commandments replace the other commandments, so they no longer needed to obey those other commandments, then they would be missing the whole point of what Jesus was saying. The greatest two commandments are much easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us the rest of His commandments to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. In other words, someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments and someone who was correctly living in obedience to the Torah would be indistinguishable from each other because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. It would be contradictory for someone to want to obey God's command to love, but not His other commands for how to do that.

The main amendment/reform cited by Paul in EPH 2:11-3:12 is that God loves and wants to save everyone

God has always wanted to save everyone. The position that God wants to save everyone from not being a doer of the Torah is also the position that God wants everyone to be a doer of the Torah, which is in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel message.

 

[Soyeong]

--which ML had two purposes: 1. the moral commands summarizable by the law of love to make people aware of sin and thus their need for salvation from condemnation, and 2. the amoral commands for the purpose of keeping the Jews separate from other nations until they fulfilled the purpose of providing Messiah for the salvation of all who accepted Him as Lord.

The existence of amoral commands would mean that we can be acting morally while disobeying those commands, however, the Bible never describe any of God's commands as being immoral, there are no examples in the Bible where disobedience to any of God's laws was said to be moral, and I see no justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to be doers of God's character in obedience to Him, so everything commanded in the Torah is inherently a moral command. Legislators give laws according to what they think ought to be done, so for you to suggest that some of God's commands are amoral is to suggest that God made a moral error about what ought to be done when He gave those commands and to therefore claim to have greater moral knowledge than God.

Jesus is God's word made flesh, so the way to accept him as Lord is not by rejecting part of God's word. In Romans 10:5-10, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead for salvation.

 

[Soyeong]

You are a lawkeeper. Works of law are incompatible with grace

Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as those works as done in order to earn a wage as the result, however, there can be many other reasons for doing works that are not incompatible with grace. For example, a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it. Similarly, God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of the Torah is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), not for how to earn it as the result. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah and something that we inherit is a gift that we do not earn.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, which again is eternal life, which is salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of our good works lest anyone should boast, the experience of becoming a doer of good works is the gift of our salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works has nothing to do with trying to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of them in obedience to the Torah is His gift of salvation.

In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, Paul contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he said that our faith upholds the Torah in contrast with saying that works of the law are not of faith, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to the Torah, which again is why they are not of faith. So I have been speaking in favor of obeying the Torah, not works of the law.

 

[GWH]

I don't think that Hebrews should be interpreted as speaking against obeying God's commands. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to ad to or subtract from the Torah, so it has not been supersede. God did not make any mistakes when He gave the Torah that needed amending. The greatest two commandments of the Torah are to love God and our neighbor, so following those commandments is not doing something other than obeying the Torah. Everything commanded in the Torah is either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. So the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them, such as if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Torah. If for example someone thought that the greatest two commandments replace the other commandments, so they no longer needed to obey those other commandments, then they would be missing the whole point of what Jesus was saying. The greatest two commandments are much easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us the rest of His commandments to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. In other words, someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments and someone who was correctly living in obedience to the Torah would be indistinguishable from each other because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. It would be contradictory for someone to want to obey God's command to love, but not His other commands for how to do that.


God has always wanted to save everyone. The position that God wants to save everyone from not being a doer of the Torah is also the position that God wants everyone to be a doer of the Torah, which is in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel message.

Well, I bet you a million dollars that if we both get to heaven we will know that it was because of faith in Christ and not because of obeying the 613 laws in the Torah.

 

[GWH]

The existence of amoral commands would mean that we can be acting morally while disobeying those commands, however, the Bible never describe any of God's commands as being immoral, there are no examples in the Bible where disobedience to any of God's laws was said to be moral, and I see no justification for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to be doers of God's character in obedience to Him, so everything commanded in the Torah is inherently a moral command. Legislators give laws according to what they think ought to be done, so for you to suggest that some of God's commands are amoral is to suggest that God made a moral error about what ought to be done when He gave those commands and to therefore claim to have greater moral knowledge than God.

Jesus is God's word made flesh, so the way to accept him as Lord is not by rejecting part of God's word. In Romans 10:5-10, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead for salvation.

Well, perhaps it was immoral for the Jews to disobey any of the 613 laws in the Torah, because the amoral ones did serve God's purpose of keeping them separate until Messiah, but now that Messiah has come, the only relevant requirement is to accept Christ as Lord, because cooperating with his Holy Spirit replaces/supersedes obeying a list of 613 laws, no matter how much you kick against that NT goad--but I guess you are free to try as long as you don't think it earns you any stars in your crown.

 

[GWH]

Well, perhaps it was immoral for the Jews to disobey any of the 613 laws in the Torah, because the amoral ones did serve God's purpose of keeping them separate until Messiah, but now that Messiah has come, the only relevant requirement is to accept Christ as Lord, because cooperating with his Holy Spirit replaces/supersedes obeying a list of 613 laws, no matter how much you kick against that NT goad--but I guess you are free to try as long as you don't think it earns you any stars in your crown.

BTW, Jesus taught that His NC surpasses/supersedes the OC in the Sermon on the Mount (MT 5:17-48).

 

[Dino246]

I don't think that Hebrews should be interpreted as speaking against obeying God's commands. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to ad to or subtract from the Torah, so it has not been supersede.

That's an incorrect understanding of the word, therefore an incorrect understanding of the biblical concept. When one thing supersedes another, it neither adds to nor subtracts from it. Rather, the one thing renders the other irrelevant, or in the case of faith in Christ superseding the Law, obsolete.

God did not make any mistakes when He gave the Torah that needed amending. The greatest two commandments of the Torah are to love God and our neighbor, so following those commandments is not doing something other than obeying the Torah. Everything commanded in the Torah is either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. So the position that we should obey the greatest two commandments is also the position that we should obey the commandments that hang on them, such as if we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of the Torah. If for example someone thought that the greatest two commandments replace the other commandments, so they no longer needed to obey those other commandments, then they would be missing the whole point of what Jesus was saying. The greatest two commandments are much easier said than done, so thankfully God gave us the rest of His commandments to flesh out what it looks like to correctly obey them. In other words, someone who was correctly living in obedience to the greatest two commandments and someone who was correctly living in obedience to the Torah would be indistinguishable from each other because they would both be following the same example that Jesus set for us to follow. It would be contradictory for someone to want to obey God's command to love, but not His other commands for how to do that.

Again, incorrect. Someone who lives in obedience to the Torah (which is impossible today) would act very different from one simply loves God and neighbour. The former would attend the tabernacle/temple three times a year, bring animals for sacrifice, tithe their crops, avoid bacon, and stone the neighbourhood adulterers.

God has always wanted to save everyone. The position that God wants to save everyone from not being a doer of the Torah is also the position that God wants everyone to be a doer of the Torah, which is in accordance with the promise and with spreading the Gospel message.

That's just word salad.

 

[Soyeong]

Well, I bet you a million dollars that if we both get to heaven we will know that it was because of faith in Christ and not because of obeying the 613 laws in the Torah.

It is contradictory to contrast faith in God with faith in God's instructions or to contrast faith in God's word made flesh with faith in God's word, rather God's word is His instructions for how to have faith in God's word made flesh. God has straightforwardly made His will known through His instructions (Psalms 40:8) and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. So while obedience to the Torah has nothing to do with trying to earn our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven as the result, being a doer of the Torah is nevertheless still a requirement because it is the way to know God and Jesus, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

Well, perhaps it was immoral for the Jews to disobey any of the 613 laws in the Torah, because the amoral ones did serve God's purpose of keeping them separate until Messiah, but now that Messiah has come, the only relevant requirement is to accept Christ as Lord, because cooperating with his Holy Spirit replaces/supersedes obeying a list of 613 laws, no matter how much you kick against that NT goad--but I guess you are free to try as long as you don't think it earns you any stars in your crown.

Morality is based on God's character, not on whether someone is a Jew. You are ignoring that the Bible never describes any of God's laws are being amoral. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving for how to do that, so it is not just Jews who are called to be set apart. The way to accept Christ as Lord is not by rejecting his example of obedience to the Torah, but just the opposite. The Bible also doesn't say that the Spirit replaces the Torah, but just the opposite. The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and in Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of flesh that are against the Spirit are also the Torah while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6) and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Torah.

The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if you think that the NT speaks against obeying God, then you should be quicker to disregard everything in the NT than to disregard anything that God as commanded, but the reality is that the NT was written by servants of God who therefore never spoke against obeying Him.

BTW, Jesus taught that His NC surpasses/supersedes the OC in the Sermon on the Mount (MT 5:17-48).

In Matthew 4, Jesus consistently preceded a quote from what was written by saying "it is written...", but in Matthew 5, he consistently preceded a quote from what the people had heard being said by saying "you have heard that it was said...", so his emphasis on the different from of communication is important. Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes to what was written, but rather he was fulfilling the law by correcting what the people had heard being said and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. The Sermon on the Mount was thoroughly rooted in the OT, so it was not surpassing/superseding anything, but the position that it was is the position that Jesus sinned and is therefore not our Savior.

 

[GWH]

It is contradictory to contrast faith in God with faith in God's instructions or to contrast faith in God's word made flesh with faith in God's word, rather God's word is His instructions for how to have faith in God's word made flesh. God has straightforwardly made His will known through His instructions (Psalms 40:8) and in Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. So while obedience to the Torah has nothing to do with trying to earn our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven as the result, being a doer of the Torah is nevertheless still a requirement because it is the way to know God and Jesus, which is eternal life (John 17:3).


Morality is based on God's character, not on whether someone is a Jew. You are ignoring that the Bible never describes any of God's laws are being amoral. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving for how to do that, so it is not just Jews who are called to be set apart. The way to accept Christ as Lord is not by rejecting his example of obedience to the Torah, but just the opposite. The Bible also doesn't say that the Spirit replaces the Torah, but just the opposite. The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and in Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of what sin is. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of flesh that are against the Spirit are also the Torah while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6) and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Torah.

The bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so if you think that the NT speaks against obeying God, then you should be quicker to disregard everything in the NT than to disregard anything that God as commanded, but the reality is that the NT was written by servants of God who therefore never spoke against obeying Him.


In Matthew 4, Jesus consistently preceded a quote from what was written by saying "it is written...", but in Matthew 5, he consistently preceded a quote from what the people had heard being said by saying "you have heard that it was said...", so his emphasis on the different from of communication is important. Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes to what was written, but rather he was fulfilling the law by correcting what the people had heard being said and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. The Sermon on the Mount was thoroughly rooted in the OT, so it was not surpassing/superseding anything, but the position that it was is the position that Jesus sinned and is therefore not our Savior.

Well, Jesus taught that his righteousness (MT 5:10&20) surpassed that of those who obeyed and taught the law (cf. HB 7:18-10:1), which apparently includes you, so consider PHP 3:1-9:

"Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord!... Watch out for those... mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are the circumcision [cf. RM 2:29]... If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:... in regard to the law, a Pharisee... as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ... I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--that comes from God and is by faith."

So, my bet still stands. See you in heaven! (I hope :^)

 

[Soyeong]

Well, Jesus taught that his righteousness (MT 5:10&20) surpassed that of those who obeyed and taught the law (cf. HB 7:18-10:1), which apparently includes you,

It is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against obeying the Torah for incorrect reasons without speaking against obeying it for corrects and that the correct solution to doing something incorrectly is to start doing it correctly rather than to cease doing it. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the Torah of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not opposing their focus on obeying the Torah, but rather he was calling them to have a higher level of obedience to it in a manner that it is in accordance with its weightier matters.

so consider PHP 3:1-9:

"Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord!... Watch out for those... mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are the circumcision [cf. RM 2:29]... If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:... in regard to the law, a Pharisee... as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ... I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--that comes from God and is by faith."

So, my bet still stands. See you in heaven! (I hope :^)

Those verses should not be interpreted in a way that contradicts Matthew 7:21-23, but a way that is informed by it, so it does not work to interpret those verses as saying that focusing on the Torah is worthless and we should focus on knowing Christ instead when Christ said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.

God's way is the way to know Him by being a doer of His character traits, such as in Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk ini God's way by being a doer of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Torah. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Torah while in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in being a doer of steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in being a doer of God's character traits in obedience to the Torah is the way to know Him. Moreover, this is also the way to know the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's character (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his actions by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they knew Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars, and in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of the Torah have neither seen nor know Him. So the goal of the Torah is to teach us how to know God and Jesus by being a doer of His character traits, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

The issue is that someone can go through the motions of obeying the Torah while neglecting to be a doer of the character traits that it was given as a gift to teach us how to express, such as in Matthew 23:23. In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that they searched the Scriptures because in them they think that they will find eternal life, and they testify about him, yet they refuse to come to him that they might have life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that obedience to the greatest two commandments of the Torah is the way to inherit eternal life, so eternal life can be found in the Scriptures and they were correct to search for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in Scripture is to testify about how to know him through being a doer of His character traits, which is the way to eternal life. In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the Torah by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursing it as through faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the Torah for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Philippians 3:1-9, Paul was in the same situation where he had been zealous for the Torah, but he had neglected to know Jesus through being a doer His character traits, so he had been missing the whole goal of the Torah and that is what he counted as rubbish.

 

[GWH]

It is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against obeying the Torah for incorrect reasons without speaking against obeying it for corrects and that the correct solution to doing something incorrectly is to start doing it correctly rather than to cease doing it. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the Torah of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not opposing their focus on obeying the Torah, but rather he was calling them to have a higher level of obedience to it in a manner that it is in accordance with its weightier matters.


Those verses should not be interpreted in a way that contradicts Matthew 7:21-23, but a way that is informed by it, so it does not work to interpret those verses as saying that focusing on the Torah is worthless and we should focus on knowing Christ instead when Christ said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them.

God's way is the way to know Him by being a doer of His character traits, such as in Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk ini God's way by being a doer of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Torah. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Torah while in 9:24, those who know God know that He delights in being a doer of steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in being a doer of God's character traits in obedience to the Torah is the way to know Him. Moreover, this is also the way to know the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's character (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his actions by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they knew Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars, and in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of the Torah have neither seen nor know Him. So the goal of the Torah is to teach us how to know God and Jesus by being a doer of His character traits, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

The issue is that someone can go through the motions of obeying the Torah while neglecting to be a doer of the character traits that it was given as a gift to teach us how to express, such as in Matthew 23:23. In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that they searched the Scriptures because in them they think that they will find eternal life, and they testify about him, yet they refuse to come to him that they might have life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that obedience to the greatest two commandments of the Torah is the way to inherit eternal life, so eternal life can be found in the Scriptures and they were correct to search for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in Scripture is to testify about how to know him through being a doer of His character traits, which is the way to eternal life. In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the Torah by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursing it as through faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the Torah for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Philippians 3:1-9, Paul was in the same situation where he had been zealous for the Torah, but he had neglected to know Jesus through being a doer His character traits, so he had been missing the whole goal of the Torah and that is what he counted as rubbish.

Well, you seem to think the NT commands obedience to the Torah, whereas I think it commands faith in Christ, whereupon the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, who then manifests loving fruit that surpasses the Torah. Thus, I believe GRFS is faith in the five points I have posted several times, whereas you believe GRFS is--obeying the Torah?

 

[Soyeong]

Well, you seem to think the NT commands obedience to the Torah, whereas I think it commands faith in Christ,

I agree that the NT commands faith in Christ, though I see that as being perfectly compatible with commanding obedience to the Torah because that is the way to have faith in Christ. In other words, God's word is His instructions for how to have faith in Christ, which is by the Bible frequently connects our belief in God with our obedience to Him. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds the Torah. In Psalms 119:30, he chose the way of faith by setting the Torah before him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commands. In John 3:36, it equates believing in Jesus with obeying him. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is also an example of works. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to the Torah is described as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience.

The way to believe in God is by being in His likeness by being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to the Torah we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works give glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him, and the same is true for God's other character traits. The way to believe that God is just is by being a doer of justice, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son because the Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's character (Hebrews 1:3).

Likewise, there are many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in Jesus and many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, which again is because God's commandments are his instructions for how to believe in Jesus.

whereupon the Holy Spirit indwells the believer, who then manifests loving fruit that surpasses the Torah.

I've quoted many verses to support that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah, which is because the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's character that the Torah was given to teach us how to express whereas there is nothing in the Bible that states that the Spirit surpasses the Torah. It doesn't even make sense to think that the Spirit surpasses the Father's instructions as if God were in disagreement with Himself about which instructions we should follow.

Thus, I believe GRFS is faith in the five points I have posted several times, whereas you believe GRFS is--obeying the Torah?

Sorry, I'm not sure which five points you are referring to or what GRFS stands for.

 

[Dino246]

The way to believe in God is by being in His likeness by being a doer of His character traits.

WRONG! That's "works righteousness", not righteousness by faith.

Somehow, you have believed in a false gospel that cannot save you. The only hope you have is believing that Jesus Christ has paid the penalty for all your sin, not by attempting to minimize the sin you commit by following the Law. According to Paul, you have fallen from grace.

 

[GWH]

I agree that the NT commands faith in Christ, though I see that as being perfectly compatible with commanding obedience to the Torah because that is the way to have faith in Christ. In other words, God's word is His instructions for how to have faith in Christ, which is by the Bible frequently connects our belief in God with our obedience to Him. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah. In James 2:18, he would show his faith by his works. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds the Torah. In Psalms 119:30, he chose the way of faith by setting the Torah before him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commands. In John 3:36, it equates believing in Jesus with obeying him. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is also an example of works. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to the Torah is described as breaking faith. In Hebrews 3:18-19, unbelief is equated with disobedience.

The way to believe in God is by being in His likeness by being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to the Torah we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works give glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him, and the same is true for God's other character traits. The way to believe that God is just is by being a doer of justice, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son because the Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's character (Hebrews 1:3).

Likewise, there are many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in Jesus and many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commandments, which again is because God's commandments are his instructions for how to believe in Jesus.


I've quoted many verses to support that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah, which is because the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's character that the Torah was given to teach us how to express whereas there is nothing in the Bible that states that the Spirit surpasses the Torah. It doesn't even make sense to think that the Spirit surpasses the Father's instructions as if God were in disagreement with Himself about which instructions we should follow.


Sorry, I'm not sure which five points you are referring to or what GRFS stands for.

I am glad (relieved, actually) that you agree the NT revelation of God's requirement for salvation is to have faith in Christ, which faith implies five elements:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

However, I think you still need to realize the insight I just now received: The Torah is represented by John the Baptist in MT 3:11, "I baptize you with water for repentance [forgiveness of sins indicated in the Torah, cf, RM 7:4-8:17], but after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

 

[Soyeong]

However, I think you still need to realize the insight I just now received: The Torah is represented by John the Baptist in MT 3:11, "I baptize you with water for repentance [forgiveness of sins indicated in the Torah, cf, RM 7:4-8:17], but after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

John the Baptist called for people to repent from their sins, Jesus continued the call for repentance by spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is Romans 3:20).

I am glad (relieved, actually) that you agree the NT revelation of God's requirement for salvation is to have faith in Christ, which faith implies five elements:

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way way of salvation by grace through faith.

There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21), so Jesus leading us to be a doer the Torah is his gift of saving us from not being a doer of the Torah.

Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18). Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.

The Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus taught calling for our obedience to the Torah is in accordance with him being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which was the Gospel of the Kingdom that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

God's way is the way to know Him by being a doer of His character traits, such as in Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in God's way by being a doer of righteousness and justice that God might bring to Him all that he had promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Torah. In Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heaven, to his children He will give all of these lands, and though his children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because Abraham heard God's voice and guarded His charge, commandments, statutes, and laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham will love God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then they will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to posses. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to the Torah, he taught his children and those of his household to do that in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, and because they did that. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, so the way that the children are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with inheriting the promise through faith is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to obey the Torah in accordance with spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).

...needs to repent from transgressing the Torah. Obeying the Torah is the way to obey the greatest two commandments of the Torah, which is why they are the greatest two commandments.

Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

The character traits of God are the fruits of the Spirit, which the Torah was given to teach us how to express, and which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it. It is contradictory for someone to accept God while not accepting His instructions.

 

[Dino246]

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21), so Jesus leading us to be a doer the Torah is his gift of saving us from not being a doer of the Torah.

You are incorrect. Jesus saves us from our sin by paying the penalty for sin on our behalf.

The character traits of God are the fruits of the Spirit which the Torah was given to teach us how to express, and which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it. It is contradictory for someone to accept God while not accepting His instructions.

You have been misled. The Torah was given to Israel in preparation for the coming of Messiah Jesus. Israel failed miserably. It was not given to us at all, and it was not given to Israel to teach them how to express God's character.

Where do you get this garbage? Whoever is teaching you is deceived and you would do well to find a competent Bible teacher.

 

[GWH]

You are incorrect. Jesus saves us from our sin by paying the penalty for sin on our behalf.


You have been misled. The Torah was given to Israel in preparation for the coming of Messiah Jesus. Israel failed miserably. It was not given to us at all, and it was not given to Israel to teach them how to express God's character.

Where do you get this garbage? Whoever is teaching you is deceived and you would do well to find a competent Bible teacher.

Methinks Soyeong is a Jew masquerading as a Christian, because I have never heard a Messianic Jew say that Jesus taught we should obey the 613 Mosaic laws in the Torah. They do not kick against the goad/truth written in:

MT 3:11: "After me [the law/Torah] will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire",

And RM 7:4-8:17: "You died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong... to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God... [cf. GL 5:22-23] We have been released from the law to serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code... Through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering."

And GL 2:15-3:25, "We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ... If righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing. You foolish Galatians!... [who kick against this goad/truth] Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by believing what you heard?... So Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness... For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse... because the righteous will live by faith. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us... so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit... Why then was the law given at all?... The law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."

IOW, the Galatians were foolish for doing what S appears to be doing: reverting to legalism instead of persevering in the original Abrahamic Covenant of faith in God (GN 15:6 & 17:1-7) and Christ's sacrifice foreshadowed by the near-sacrifice of Isaac (GN 22:1-18).

 

[Dino246]

Methinks Soyeong is a Jew masquerading as a Christian, because I have never heard a Messianic Jew say that Jesus taught we should obey the 613 Mosaic laws in the Torah. They do not kick against the goad/truth written in:

MT 3:11: "After me [the law/Torah] will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire",

And RM 7:4-8:17: "You died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong... to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God... [cf. GL 5:22-23] We have been released from the law to serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code... Through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering."

And GL 2:15-3:25, "We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ... If righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing. You foolish Galatians!... [who kick against this goad/truth] Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by believing what you heard?... So Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness... For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse... because the righteous will live by faith. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us... so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit... Why then was the law given at all?... The law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian."

IOW, the Galatians were foolish for doing what S appears to be doing: reverting to legalism instead of persevering in the original Abrahamic Covenant of faith in God (GN 15:6 & 17:1-7) and Christ's sacrifice foreshadowed by the near-sacrifice of Isaac (GN 22:1-18).

He certainly isn't a Christian in the normal sense of the word. A Judaizer at best, an unbeliever at worst. It's sad. I also strongly suspect he has me on Ignore because he hasn't responded directly to anything I've written lately.

 

[GWH]

He certainly isn't a Christian in the normal sense of the word. A Judaizer at best, an unbeliever at worst. It's sad. I also strongly suspect he has me on Ignore because he hasn't responded directly to anything I've written lately.

Yes, I would like to know his testimony, but I don't know if that is okay to ask on CC.

 

[NightTwister]

I haven't heard the "strange fire" argument for quite a long time. This should be fun.