Understanding God’s election
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Lol. Why are you answering my questions with questions? I don't mean for this to sound rude or accusatory, but it almost seems as if you are hesitant to give your own definition of free will because you think that it will not hold up under scrutiny. I could be totally wrong, and I truly mean you no offense, but I am just trying to figure out why you will not answer a simple question.
To answer your question, it seems to me that free will, in the context of this thread, is our God-given ability to freely choose whether or not we will receive God's gracious offer of salvation through Jesus Christ.
I am walking out the door now, so if you have any other questions, or if you are willing to give me your definition of free will, then it will be a bit before I can answer them or consider it.
To answer your question, it seems to me that free will, in the context of this thread, is our God-given ability to freely choose whether or not we will receive God's gracious offer of salvation through Jesus Christ.
I am walking out the door now, so if you have any other questions, or if you are willing to give me your definition of free will, then it will be a bit before I can answer them or consider it.
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Okay, here is my understanding of our disagreement:
1. We agree that salvation is not universal, but I believe 1TM 2:3-4, DT 30:19, etal indicate that God wants it to be or offers grace to all people, whereas you provide no Scripture to support belief that God hates the non-elect part of humanity and condemns them to hell with no chance to be saved.
2. We agree that it is God's prerogative to dispense grace/salvation to whomever He so chooses to, but we disagree about "for whatever reason or no reason", as though His choice/election can be motivated by hatred or else a blind throw of the darts. I believe the reason must be love, because Jesus said we should love our enemies and be perfect like God (MT 5:44&48). You ascribe irrationality and hatred to God for no good/biblical reason.
3. We agree that no one deserves or can earn grace/salvation by works or obeying moral law, but we disagree about whether faith is a meritorious work rather than merely one's will accepting God's work. My view is supported by EPH 2:8-10 and every other NT reference to faith/belief, because it harmonizes with Scripture teaching that God is all-loving, whereas your view interprets a few of those references as indicating God determines whether or not everyone repents or not, which makes God blamable for lack of repentance/faith.
I wouldn't want to show up at the pearly gates holding that low opinion of God!
1. We agree that salvation is not universal, but I believe 1TM 2:3-4, DT 30:19, etal indicate that God wants it to be or offers grace to all people, whereas you provide no Scripture to support belief that God hates the non-elect part of humanity and condemns them to hell with no chance to be saved.
2. We agree that it is God's prerogative to dispense grace/salvation to whomever He so chooses to, but we disagree about "for whatever reason or no reason", as though His choice/election can be motivated by hatred or else a blind throw of the darts. I believe the reason must be love, because Jesus said we should love our enemies and be perfect like God (MT 5:44&48). You ascribe irrationality and hatred to God for no good/biblical reason.
3. We agree that no one deserves or can earn grace/salvation by works or obeying moral law, but we disagree about whether faith is a meritorious work rather than merely one's will accepting God's work. My view is supported by EPH 2:8-10 and every other NT reference to faith/belief, because it harmonizes with Scripture teaching that God is all-loving, whereas your view interprets a few of those references as indicating God determines whether or not everyone repents or not, which makes God blamable for lack of repentance/faith.
I wouldn't want to show up at the pearly gates holding that low opinion of God!
Belief comes from salvation; it does not lead to salvation - it is of the fruit of the Spirit upon becoming
born again - a result of being saved - it does not occur in the reverse. Our acceptance of it has no bearing upon receiving it.
Jesus alone wears the title of Savior. As Savior, everything pertaining to salvation had to be achieved by Him on our behalf -
eliminating the requirement of choice on our part, were it otherwise, He could not be the Savior. That is what makes salvation by grace - there is simply no way around it.
born again - a result of being saved - it does not occur in the reverse. Our acceptance of it has no bearing upon receiving it.
Jesus alone wears the title of Savior. As Savior, everything pertaining to salvation had to be achieved by Him on our behalf -
eliminating the requirement of choice on our part, were it otherwise, He could not be the Savior. That is what makes salvation by grace - there is simply no way around it.
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Straw men or red herrings are the only "defenses" they have. They want to remain willfully ignorant! Take CV5, for example, who has tried at various times to make Adam into a spiritual superhero because he supposedly sinned on behalf of Eve who he loved dearly. What a load of horse manure! Adam loved her so much that he threw her under the bus when Adam questioned him. 
Moreover, CV5 doesn't bother to make the argument how much Adam loved God when he sinned! I guess all that really matters in his mind is that Adam allegedly loved someone. Pathetic!
I say Adam loved himself and his spiritual father since he was doing the Serpent's will.
Moreover, CV5 doesn't bother to make the argument how much Adam loved God when he sinned! I guess all that really matters in his mind is that Adam allegedly loved someone. Pathetic!I say Adam loved himself and his spiritual father since he was doing the Serpent's will.
Your answer was what I'm trying to avoid. I'm not looking for a definition according to the thread. I'm simply trying to establish what freewill is. After doing this, we can evaluate whether and to what extent an individual possesses freewill and its application to salvation.
If one begins with the application of freewill to salvation apart from establishing what freewill is independent of it, we're more likely to agree on the definition.
If one begins with the application of freewill to salvation apart from establishing what freewill is independent of it, we're more likely to agree on the definition.
Straight-forward Scriptures sometimes seem contradictory, which is why we should attempt to harmonize all Scripture, such as what follows, beginning with JN 10:28:
The doctrine of perseverance or LGW serves as a bridge from the kerygma (creed) to the didache (lifelong spiritual growth) or from spiritual birth to maturity, so it is logical to harmonize various biblical statements on this issue before proceeding to other didachaic topics. The passages that seem to support predestination may be harmonized with those supporting free will or perseverance as follows:
1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”.
2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.
3. Rom 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.
4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.
5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.
6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).
7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.
8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.
9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.
Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:
MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
The doctrine of perseverance or LGW serves as a bridge from the kerygma (creed) to the didache (lifelong spiritual growth) or from spiritual birth to maturity, so it is logical to harmonize various biblical statements on this issue before proceeding to other didachaic topics. The passages that seem to support predestination may be harmonized with those supporting free will or perseverance as follows:
1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”.
2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.
3. Rom 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.
4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.
5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.
6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).
7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.
8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.
9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.
Scriptures that teach the possibility of apostasy include the following:
MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”
GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”
CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”
2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”
2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”
HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”
HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”
JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”
2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”
2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”
1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”
JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”
RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
Obviously God would be unjust if He gave some sinners what they deserve but not others. I assume you think you are in the batch that will NOT get what he deserves. What luck, if true, but a God who would hate the non-elect people would easily be tricky enough to deceive you with bogus Scripture saying that you are saved. However, Jesus and Paul acted/taught as though God is all-loving. Whew!
(Thank goodness you were not a NT writer! :^)
(Thank goodness you were not a NT writer! :^)
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Were it true that God wants it offered to everyone, then one's acceptance of the offer would make salvation of their work and they
their own savior, not Christ. For Christ to be Savior, He must have accomplished all on the behalf of those to be saved; that is, all of the requirements necessary for salvation - with there being nothing yet to be finished - completed by us - including our choice, otherwise, He wouldn't be the Savior, we would be, but the scripture is extremely clear that He alone is Savior.
God hates everyone not justified by Christ, so we all start equally from that position. Why? Because we, from the first moments of life, are sinners. Therefore, God owes us nothing. That He chooses to forgive and save anyone demonstrates His exceedingly great mercy and grace. Were it not solely for His mercy and grace, no one could be saved.
Who do you think the "we" of Eph 2:8 -10 represents? The answer can be seen in Eph 2:1. The "we" represents those whom God already
had made spiritually alive:
[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Notice in Eph 2:1, the progression of events as stated therein: that they were dead; and then they were quickened (made alive).
Observe also that in being made alive, they contributed nothing to it whatsoever- it was all by God - He alone took them from death and gave them life with nothing else intervening between the two states- there was no acceptance of it on their part in order to have it: a spiritually dead person cannot assist with giving themselves life. Can you see that?
I don't have a low opinion of God if that is your implication. Rather, I have the highest possible opinion of God a man can have, as He took me from death and gave me life, from which, I came to believe in Him as my Savior.
their own savior, not Christ. For Christ to be Savior, He must have accomplished all on the behalf of those to be saved; that is, all of the requirements necessary for salvation - with there being nothing yet to be finished - completed by us - including our choice, otherwise, He wouldn't be the Savior, we would be, but the scripture is extremely clear that He alone is Savior.
God hates everyone not justified by Christ, so we all start equally from that position. Why? Because we, from the first moments of life, are sinners. Therefore, God owes us nothing. That He chooses to forgive and save anyone demonstrates His exceedingly great mercy and grace. Were it not solely for His mercy and grace, no one could be saved.
Who do you think the "we" of Eph 2:8 -10 represents? The answer can be seen in Eph 2:1. The "we" represents those whom God already
had made spiritually alive:
[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Notice in Eph 2:1, the progression of events as stated therein: that they were dead; and then they were quickened (made alive).
Observe also that in being made alive, they contributed nothing to it whatsoever- it was all by God - He alone took them from death and gave them life with nothing else intervening between the two states- there was no acceptance of it on their part in order to have it: a spiritually dead person cannot assist with giving themselves life. Can you see that?
I don't have a low opinion of God if that is your implication. Rather, I have the highest possible opinion of God a man can have, as He took me from death and gave me life, from which, I came to believe in Him as my Savior.
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You won't be happy in eternity either since man's nature will be fully and completely and eternally conformed to Christ, which means (drum roll, please....) no saint will be able to sin. No saint will ever experience again the battle between the "flesh and the Spirit", which means no saint will be making any choices contrary to their fully redeemed nature. You will surely feel like a fish out of water.
O Rufus, the Aloofus?...
How art thou on this rare, nice day?
Rufus, the Aloofus? ...
Who keeps repeating the same wrong notion?...
.......... Why , tell me why?
Must you always push to have your own way?
..... Oh dear... Its getting harder and harder to find a baby sitter.
Hebrews 5:12
Oh...but I will get what I deserve because what I deserve does not depend on my own merit but on the merits of my Federal Head -- the Last Adam. My hope is in him, not myself. The Last Adam satisfied God's justice for all God's elect. Conversely, the non-elect get to pay the price for their own sins. So...both groups get what they deserve. I like Paul boast solely in the Cross of Christ!
In my previous post, I should also have mentioned that according to Ephesians 2:8, we are saved solely by God's grace through faith, all of which is a gift from Him. If any part of it were a contribution from/by us, then the verse would contradict and invalidate itself,
which would be impossible.
which would be impossible.
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