Understanding God’s election

[Genez]

Since when did you come to believe in Irresistible Grace?

Irresistible grace (the one which I just described) does not guarantee one will believe.
Such grace only guarantees an individual the freedom to believe, if he wishes to.
While the person is being drawn, God will impose the grace needed.
Calvinists insist God's drawing will guarantee belief.
It only guarantees the freedom to believe. That is why all who reject are to be without excuse.

Irresistible grace only guarantees the freedom to believe after one had been successfully drawn by God to the point of passing God's requirement. Then God will materialize the invisible one by means of presenting Jesus Christ to them.

Men can and do fall away from God's drawing them before they will be presented Jesus.
But, they could not resist being drawn while the drawing process was taking place in their lives as God determined.

As Romans 1:18-21, reveals... God made those who reject Him to first have known He is real.

They were brought to a state of knowing God is real.
Knowing while still in their unregenerate state!
That is when they suppressed the truth with lies that they preferred to think with.
God gives up on drawing that kind of unbeliever at that stage of drawing a man.

Romans 1:18-21


The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain
to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal
power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what
has been made, so that people are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks
to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.


............

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Ultimately, it's up to God.

Ultimately he sent the gospel and said this

“But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. ( God doesn’t control our mouths we have to decide what to confess )

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:8-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

some here seem to interpret this as insufficient to save people or that God is magically going to decide who can believe and who is doomed he’s already suffered and died for us all then he said whoever believes my gospel will be saved !!!

some of you have even removed belief but I mean I think people should definetely read the scriptures for themselves

 

[rogerg]

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Wait - why is "shall be saved" in the future tense but "believeth and is being baptized" not in the future tense?
Don't you believe that one is the cause of the other - belief and salvation? The same with the "shall be damned"?
According to your belief, shouldn't salvation occur simultaneously with belief?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Wait - why is "shall be saved" in the future tense but "believeth and is being baptized" not in the future tense.
Don't you believe that one is the cause of the other? The same with the "shall be damned"?

Because you folks are saying “ anyone who’s already saved shall believe “ it’s backwards salvation is a result of belief in Jesus Christ

Preach the gospel ,

whoever believes and is baptized shall then be saved ,

whoever doesn’t believe shall then be damned

v

your either already saved or already doomed and if your already saved you’ll believe the gospel and get baptized

Thats backwards

 

[Genez]

Why did he tell us how to be saved and promise if we believed we’d be saved ? He already decided lol

Good point!
Try as you may....

Some get like Pharaoh, and keep saying "no"...to what God makes perspicuous to them.

....

 

[Genez]

Wait - why is "shall be saved" in the future tense but "believeth and is being baptized" not in the future tense?
Don't you believe that one is the cause of the other - belief and salvation? The same with the "shall be damned"?
According to your belief, shouldn't salvation occur simultaneously with belief?

Because the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is automatic when one believes!
It's a simultaneous action.

Water baptism was becoming not the way.

 

[rogerg]

Because you folks are saying “ anyone who’s already saved shall believe “ it’s backwards salvation is a result of belief in Jesus Christ

Preach the gospel ,

whoever believes and is baptized shall then be saved ,

whoever doesn’t believe shall then be damned

v

your either already saved or already doomed and if your already saved you’ll believe the gospel and get baptized

Thats backwards

You didn't answer my question, and I don't feel like going round and round with you. In the verse,
the "shall be saved" is in the future to one's believing. They should both occur simultaneous to each other, right?
Can someone truly believe and yet not yet be saved?

 

[rogerg]

Because the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is automatic when one believes!
It's a simultaneous action.

Water baptism was becoming not the way.

According to the verse the two are NOT simultaneous.
Were that correct, (and it isn't), why then does the verse have the "shall be saved" in the future tense?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You didn't answer my question, and I don't feel like going round and round with you. In the verse,
the "shall be saved" is in the future to one's believing. They should both occur simultaneous to each other, right?
Can someone truly believe and yet not yet be saved?

It’s not round and round it’s forward and backwards

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Good point!
Try as you may....

Some get like Pharaoh, and keep saying "no"...to what God makes perspicuous to them.

....

it seems like the belief that man is incapable of hearing God or choosing the good , is holding us back from hearing God and choosing the good and life

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Ultimately, it's up to God.

In tbat he created us ? and made us capable of hearing and grasping a message of words ? Unlike other creatures on earth ?

If you’re saying God gets the glory I agree without God creating us and speaking salvation we wouldn’t exist or be able to hear his word and live.

If your saying he’s got a list and he’s making arbitrary choices who lives and dies I disagree

 

[Genez]

it seems like the belief that man is incapable of hearing God or choosing the good , is holding us back from hearing God and choosing the good and life

Like Pharaoh, they choose to harden their own heart.

A hardened heart can soon become a boastful spirit....

 

[rogerg]

Because the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is automatic when one believes!
It's a simultaneous action.

Water baptism was becoming not the way.

The answer is that the salvation spoken of is when our spirit is (saved) - held safe from God's judgment -
on the last day. It is then when those to be damned, are actually damned, and those to be saved actually experience salvation
in its final, fullest form, but not the salvation that occurs in this life, however, only those who have been saved during this life will have their spirits saved in the day of the Lord Jesus - that is why that "saved" occurs in the future tense.

It can maybe be seen a little more clearly in this verse:

[1Co 5:5 KJV]
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Genez]

The answer is that the salvation spoken of is when our spirit is (saved) - held safe from God's judgment -
on the last day. It is then when those to be damned, are actually damned, and those to be saved actually experience salvation
in its final, fullest form, but not the salvation that occurs in this life, however, only those who have been saved during this life will have their spirits saved in the day of the Lord Jesus - that is why that "saved" occurs in the future tense.

It can maybe be seen a little more clearly in this verse:

[1Co 5:5 KJV]
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Which is it?

TULIP? Or, off in the TOOLIES...

Enjoy what makes your belly feel good.

 

[HeIsHere]

No offer is made by God for salvation under the New Covenant. God has already decided and has executed everything pertaining to salvation. Man is only its recipient/beneficiary. Those who think there is an action required of them, even to the "accepting an offer of marriage", demonstrate they are/remain under the law of works, not grace.

Accepting a gift is never a work, it is passive, a person has had not part in creating the gift so there is no work involved.

It approaching absurd to think accepting a gift takes a away from the grace of the gift giver.

As well being "under grace" is a position one has after having been justified by exercising personal faith IN Christ Jesus.

 

[HeIsHere]

Why did he tell us how to be saved and promise if we believed we’d be saved ? He already decided lol

Good question.

 

[HeIsHere]

Because you folks are saying “ anyone who’s already saved shall believe “ it’s backwards salvation is a result of belief in Jesus Christ

Preach the gospel ,

whoever believes and is baptized shall then be saved ,

whoever doesn’t believe shall then be damned

v

your either already saved or already doomed and if your already saved you’ll believe the gospel and get baptized

Thats backwards

That would be correct, backwards. Backwards solves a problem which never existed.

People can and do believe, man's fallen nature does not remove man's ability to morally respond to the Good News, one verse out of Corinthians out of context of Paul's full letter does not make a doctrine.

 

[rogerg]

Accepting a gift is never a work, it is passive, a person has had not part in creating the gift so there is no work involved.

It approaching absurd to think accepting a gift takes a away from the grace of the gift giver.

As well being "under grace" is a position one has after having been justified by exercising personal faith IN Christ Jesus.

There is no provision made for man's acceptance of anything pertaining to becoming saved in the New Covenant. All is by God. For those who believe acceptance is a requirment, that belief means they remain under the law of works.

 

[HeIsHere]

If your saying he’s got a list and he’s making arbitrary choices who lives and dies I disagree

I agree with your disagreement, lol, because that is not biblical election that is unbiblical selection.

 

[HeIsHere]

There is no provision made for man's acceptance of anything pertaining to becoming saved in the New Covenant. All is by God. For those who believe acceptance is a requirment, that belief means they remain under the law of works.

That is certainly not in the Bible, are you sure you are not reading a different book?