Understanding God’s election

[Inquisitor]

But Mat 7:23 isn't dealing with the date of the Parousia. It's dealing with the Judgment of men -- men and women who the Son of God in his preincarnate state NEVER knew even in eternity -- even though he supposedly decreed their very existence.

And there was nothing imperfect about Jesus. Regarding the date of his return, he willingly laid aside that knowledge during his first advent. But notice carefully a very different kind of post-resurrection response that the risen, glorified Christ gives in Acts to his apostles when they asked him about when the restoration of the Kingdom would take place. In that response, Jesus did not plead "ignorance" of times or dates:

Acts 1:6-7
6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
NIV

I know you free-willers just cannot bring yourselves to understand that Mat 7:23 isn't dealing with the First Advent. All your inane, foolish replies that are grounded in the first advent betray this fact. You want in vain to force the first advent into the passage even though it's clearly talking about Judgment Day which occurs at the second advent. After all, didn't Jesus say of his FIRST VISITATION that he did not come to judge the world but to save it (Jn 12:47)? So why are you free willers desperately trying to force a square peg (first advent) into a round hole (second advent event)? (Rhetorical question. I know why!)

So quit with your childish antics which are so transparently clear to the rest of us who do know the scriptures. Address my questions honestly about Mat 7:23 in their proper eschatological context! And that context is not the First Advent, which means the doctrine of the "kenosis" has absolutely nothing to do with the passage! It's merely a straw man you guys use because if you didn't bring that, you wouldn't have anything to say about Mat 7:23. What could you say: that the "kenosis" carried over to Jesus' present glorified state and will continue on for all eternity, and this is why he never knew anything about the false believers on judgment day?

Your quotation refutes your argument.

Acts 1:6-7
6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Jesus spoke what the Father told Him to speak.

Jesus did what He saw His Father doing.

Jesus obeyed the Father's commandment.

Jesus came in the flesh.

No one can stand in the presence of God!!!!

Ezekiel 1:26
Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man. 27 Then I noticed from the appearance of His waist and upward something like gleaming metal that looked like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him. 28 Like the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.

Your looking at the Word here and that is the image that you were created in.

"was a figure with the appearance of a man"

The Father is invisible and no one has ever seen the Father, only Jesus has seen the Father.

The Father does not look like a man.

The Father is Spirit.

 

[Genez]

I called it what I called it: Creation Mandate! A mandate that long preceded the Law of Moses -- and is still in effect. In fact, the bible throughout teaches a strong work ethic!

By the way...

It was not a law... It was a .......... " Curse!"

To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit ​

from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’​

​

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

Genesis 3:17-18​

​

​

......​

 

[Genez]

​

Those who only see what they want to see...​

​

Will fail to see what they need to see!​

 

[Genez]

No problem. I knew you would never come up with a solution to this dilemma. Maybe your "genius" buddy CV5 can come to your rescue...

Only in your pipe dreams did you refute me with the word salad you concocted! So, what are you going to say about Jesus' Second Advent: He's going to return with amnesia!? How is that possible since even during his first advent he KNEW all men's hearts!? (And just for the record, the Gr. term "ginosko" in Mat 7:23 is the same term used in Jn 2:24-25.)

Bottom line: If Jesus has forever lost his omniscience, then he cannot be the very God of God. He would in fact TODAY and in the FUTURE be something LESS than divine! Also, if he lost his omniscience, there is no way possible for him to righteously judge men and give to each what they deserve according to their deeds. He would HAVE to know each and every person's every thought, word and deed in this life in order for him to render true justice.

Sometimes I enjoy having moments of nostalgia...

Sometimes, even love remembering and recalling the schoolyard antics I needed to face
in elementary school with that one boastful kid who thought he knew it all.

Back then I had a comforting thought.
The hope was that we were all going to grow older and he would be outgrowing that kind of thinking.

Now what? What happened?

 

[Rufus]

So...all this fluff you just posted will apply with equal force for Jesus at his second advent, which is what Mat 7:23 is dealing with? What part of the future tense verb "will" don't you get? Or what part of "that day" (not be confused with the day of Jesus' first visitation) can't you understand?

And since you say that Jesus did not know ALL things, how do you explain Jn 2:24-25, and the other supporting verses I provided earlier in my 5048, to show that Jesus knew the hearts of all men during his FIRST ADVENT!? Again, I must ask: Did Jesus leave his omniscience and glory in the grave after he rose from the dead in his glorified state? Did he forget to take those with him?

Jesus knew the hearts of all men because that was given to Him in the Holy Spirit.

John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

John 6:46
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

John 14:7
If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see
the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones,
or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (Jesus).

You were created through Jesus and for Jesus.

Has anyone ever seen the Father, heard the Father, known the Father, or even touched the Father.

1 Timothy 6:16
Who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.
To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father,
full of grace and truth.

Jesus was not eternal, immortal, because Jesus died on the cross.[/QUOTE]

But the Son of God is eternal. Didn't anyone ever teach you about the PRE-INCARNATE Christ? How else could Jesus have seen the Father before he was even born? Or how else could Jesus have equated himself with the Father? Or how else could the Son of God have created the universe? Surely, you're not suggesting that the eternal Son of God ceased to be God's son at his incarnation, are you?

Are you trying to compound an already very sticky problem that you free willers have? In addition to the glorified, risen Christ losing his attribute of omniscience at his second coming which itself will be indispensable for judging everyone righteously, did he also lose his sonship status with the Father?

And since you brought up the Holy Spirit with respect to Jn 2:24-25, apparently Jesus will have lost the Spirit on Judgment Day since he becomes more ignorant on that day than he was during his first advent when he actually KNEW what was in all men's hearts. Clearly, the Holy Spirit is not going to reveal anything to the Second Person of the Godhead on the day of judgment. Care to address this issue?

Just keep digging that free willer hole more deeply and you will only create more problems for yourself; for lies only breed lies; falsehood breeds only falsehoods; error breeds only more errors. You will wind up becoming thoroughly ensnared in your own web of deceit. As the Good Book says somewhere, "There's a time to speak and a time to remain silent". You should quit doing the former to cut your aleady severe losses.

 

[Rufus]

[QUOTE="Genez, post: 5424488, member: 262512"]Sometimes I enjoy having moments of nostalgia...

Sometimes, even love remembering and recalling the schoolyard antics I needed to face
in elementary school with that one boastful kid who thought he knew it all.

Back then I had a comforting thought.
The hope was that we were all going to grow older and he would be outgrowing that kind of thinking.

Now what? What happened? [/QUOTE]

How very sad that you don't enjoy equally as well, if not more, TRUTH-TELLING!

 

[Cranberry]

Matthew 24:36
But about that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

I only need one imperfection, just one example of Jesus not knowing all things.

To establish that Jesus came in the flesh.

Jesus as a child grew in knowledge as Jesus did not know all things.

Jesus did indeed fully take on the human form.

The eternal glory that the pre-incarnate Jesus possessed was not on display.

Do you deny that Jesus came in the flesh?

You have no place to ask about scripture when you deny its history. And make insubstantial claims against it.

 

[Inquisitor]

Jesus knew the hearts of all men because that was given to Him in the Holy Spirit.

John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

John 6:46
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

John 14:7
If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see
the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones,
or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (Jesus).

You were created through Jesus and for Jesus.

Has anyone ever seen the Father, heard the Father, known the Father, or even touched the Father.

1 Timothy 6:16
Who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.
To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father,
full of grace and truth.

Jesus was not eternal, immortal, because Jesus died on the cross.

But the Son of God is eternal. Didn't anyone ever teach you about the PRE-INCARNATE Christ? How else could Jesus have seen the Father before he was even born? Or how else could Jesus have equated himself with the Father? Or how else could the Son of God have created the universe? Surely, you're not suggesting that the eternal Son of God ceased to be God's son at his incarnation, are you?

Are you trying to compound an already very sticky problem that you free willers have? In addition to the glorified, risen Christ losing his attribute of omniscience at his second coming which itself will be indispensable for judging everyone righteously, did he also lose his sonship status with the Father?

And since you brought up the Holy Spirit with respect to Jn 2:24-25, apparently Jesus will have lost the Spirit on Judgment Day since he becomes more ignorant on that day than he was during his first advent when he actually KNEW what was in all men's hearts. Clearly, the Holy Spirit is not going to reveal anything to the Second Person of the Godhead on the day of judgment. Care to address this issue?

Just keep digging that free willer hole more deeply and you will only create more problems for yourself; for lies only breed lies; falsehood breeds only falsehoods; error breeds only more errors. You will wind up becoming thoroughly ensnared in your own web of deceit. As the Good Book says somewhere, "There's a time to speak and a time to remain silent". You should quit doing the former to cut your aleady severe losses.[/QUOTE]

 

[Inquisitor]

The Reverend Chat GPT will answer you question.

Your question delves into some profound theological mysteries that have been considered for centuries. Let’s address each part step by step:


Philippians 2:6-7
The passage reads:

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."​

The Greek word translated as "made himself nothing" or "emptied himself" is kenoō. This "self-emptying" (often called kenosis) has been interpreted in different ways, but it is generally understood as Jesus voluntarily laying aside certain aspects of His divine prerogatives without ceasing to be God.

What did Jesus empty Himself of?

1. His Divine Glory: Jesus veiled His divine glory (John 17:5) so that He could live among humanity without overwhelming them with His full splendor.
2. Independent Use of Divine Attributes: Jesus, while fully God, chose to live as fully human and submitted to the Father’s will. For instance:
   • He limited His omniscience (e.g., not knowing the day or hour of His return – Mark 13:32).
   • He experienced hunger, thirst, fatigue, and even death.
3. Privilege and Status: Though equal with God, Jesus took on the role of a servant, humbling Himself to live as a human and die a humiliating death on the cross (Philippians 2:8).

This "emptying" was not a loss of deity but a voluntary limitation for the sake of His mission of redemption.
The Word Became Flesh (John 1:1, 14)
John describes Jesus (the Word, Logos) as both fully divine and fully human:

• “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1).
• “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14).

This mystery, known as the Incarnation, means that Jesus retained His divine nature while fully assuming human nature. In becoming flesh:

• Jesus was subject to human limitations, such as growth in wisdom and knowledge (Luke 2:52).
• However, He remained sinless and continued to reflect the perfect image of God (Hebrews 1:3).

Jesus' Dependence on the Father
You rightly point out that Jesus said:

• “The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing” (John 5:19).
• “For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me” (John 6:38).

This highlights Jesus' voluntary submission to the Father during His earthly ministry, part of His self-emptying. Even though He was fully God, He lived in perfect obedience as a human being to fulfill the Father's plan of salvation.
The Vision in Ezekiel 1
Ezekiel 1 describes a vivid, awe-inspiring vision of God’s glory, with imagery of wheels, cherubim, and a radiant figure:

“Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him.” (Ezekiel 1:26-27, NIV)​

This figure is often interpreted as a manifestation of God’s glory. Some theologians suggest that this could be a theophany (a visible manifestation of God). Since the Word (Jesus) is described as the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), it is possible to see the figure in Ezekiel 1 as a pre-incarnate appearance of the Word.
Key Takeaways

• Jesus "emptied Himself" of divine privileges but not His divine nature. He retained full divinity while fully embracing humanity.
• In His earthly life, Jesus submitted entirely to the Father’s will, speaking and acting as the Father directed.
• The vision in Ezekiel 1, with its radiant figure, could be seen as the pre-incarnate Word, the visible and audible image of God. This interpretation aligns with the idea that the Word has always been the means through which God reveals Himself.

 

[Inquisitor]

But the Son of God is eternal. Didn't anyone ever teach you about the PRE-INCARNATE Christ? How else could Jesus have seen the Father before he was even born? Or how else could Jesus have equated himself with the Father? Or how else could the Son of God have created the universe? Surely, you're not suggesting that the eternal Son of God ceased to be God's son at his incarnation, are you?

Are you trying to compound an already very sticky problem that you free willers have? In addition to the glorified, risen Christ losing his attribute of omniscience at his second coming which itself will be indispensable for judging everyone righteously, did he also lose his sonship status with the Father?

And since you brought up the Holy Spirit with respect to Jn 2:24-25, apparently Jesus will have lost the Spirit on Judgment Day since he becomes more ignorant on that day than he was during his first advent when he actually KNEW what was in all men's hearts. Clearly, the Holy Spirit is not going to reveal anything to the Second Person of the Godhead on the day of judgment. Care to address this issue?

Just keep digging that free willer hole more deeply and you will only create more problems for yourself; for lies only breed lies; falsehood breeds only falsehoods; error breeds only more errors. You will wind up becoming thoroughly ensnared in your own web of deceit. As the Good Book says somewhere, "There's a time to speak and a time to remain silent". You should quit doing the former to cut your aleady severe losses.

I don't believe that mankind has a perfect freewill and not even close.

Nor do I believe that God predestines anyone to destruction.

I do not believe that God has favorites or that God is partial to anyone.

 

[Rufus]

Your quotation refutes your argument.

Acts 1:6-7
6 So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

7 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Jesus spoke what the Father told Him to speak.

Jesus did what He saw His Father doing.

Jesus obeyed the Father's commandment.

Jesus came in the flesh.

No one can stand in the presence of God!!!!

Ezekiel 1:26
Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man. 27 Then I noticed from the appearance of His waist and upward something like gleaming metal that looked like fire all around within it, and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw something like fire; and there was a radiance around Him. 28 Like the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.

Your looking at the Word here and that is the image that you were created in.

"was a figure with the appearance of a man"

The Father is invisible and no one has ever seen the Father, only Jesus has seen the Father.

The Father does not look like a man.

The Father is Spirit.

The passage in Acts 1 supports my argument. Jesus did not appeal to ignorance in that passage, as he did when in the role of a lowly, humble servant of the Father! After all, his resurrection "declared" him to be the eternal Son of God with power (Rom 1:4). So...what the Father gave him to speak in Acts is materially different than what he gave to Him to speak when in his role of humble servant.

Any more pearls of wisdom for us?

 

[Inquisitor]

But the Son of God is eternal. Didn't anyone ever teach you about the PRE-INCARNATE Christ? How else could Jesus have seen the Father before he was even born? Or how else could Jesus have equated himself with the Father? Or how else could the Son of God have created the universe? Surely, you're not suggesting that the eternal Son of God ceased to be God's son at his incarnation, are you?

Are you trying to compound an already very sticky problem that you free willers have? In addition to the glorified, risen Christ losing his attribute of omniscience at his second coming which itself will be indispensable for judging everyone righteously, did he also lose his sonship status with the Father?

And since you brought up the Holy Spirit with respect to Jn 2:24-25, apparently Jesus will have lost the Spirit on Judgment Day since he becomes more ignorant on that day than he was during his first advent when he actually KNEW what was in all men's hearts. Clearly, the Holy Spirit is not going to reveal anything to the Second Person of the Godhead on the day of judgment. Care to address this issue?

Just keep digging that free willer hole more deeply and you will only create more problems for yourself; for lies only breed lies; falsehood breeds only falsehoods; error breeds only more errors. You will wind up becoming thoroughly ensnared in your own web of deceit. As the Good Book says somewhere, "There's a time to speak and a time to remain silent". You should quit doing the former to cut your aleady severe losses.

[/QUOTE]

You have a problem.

You said, "But the Son of God is eternal".

The Word is eternal but the son of man died on the cross.

Are you inferring that Jesus did not really die on the cross?

How can an eternal Son of God die on the cross?

That is a direct contradiction within the revelation of the Christ.

The words 'eternal' and 'death' are very different words.

 

[Rufus]

The Reverend Chat GPT will answer you question.

Your question delves into some profound theological mysteries that have been considered for centuries. Let’s address each part step by step:


Philippians 2:6-7
The passage reads:

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."​

The Greek word translated as "made himself nothing" or "emptied himself" is kenoō. This "self-emptying" (often called kenosis) has been interpreted in different ways, but it is generally understood as Jesus voluntarily laying aside certain aspects of His divine prerogatives without ceasing to be God.

What did Jesus empty Himself of?

1. His Divine Glory: Jesus veiled His divine glory (John 17:5) so that He could live among humanity without overwhelming them with His full splendor.
2. Independent Use of Divine Attributes: Jesus, while fully God, chose to live as fully human and submitted to the Father’s will. For instance:
   • He limited His omniscience (e.g., not knowing the day or hour of His return – Mark 13:32).
   • He experienced hunger, thirst, fatigue, and even death.
3. Privilege and Status: Though equal with God, Jesus took on the role of a servant, humbling Himself to live as a human and die a humiliating death on the cross (Philippians 2:8).

This "emptying" was not a loss of deity but a voluntary limitation for the sake of His mission of redemption.
The Word Became Flesh (John 1:1, 14)
John describes Jesus (the Word, Logos) as both fully divine and fully human:

• “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1).
• “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:14).

This mystery, known as the Incarnation, means that Jesus retained His divine nature while fully assuming human nature. In becoming flesh:

• Jesus was subject to human limitations, such as growth in wisdom and knowledge (Luke 2:52).
• However, He remained sinless and continued to reflect the perfect image of God (Hebrews 1:3).

Jesus' Dependence on the Father
You rightly point out that Jesus said:

• “The Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing” (John 5:19).
• “For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me” (John 6:38).

This highlights Jesus' voluntary submission to the Father during His earthly ministry, part of His self-emptying. Even though He was fully God, He lived in perfect obedience as a human being to fulfill the Father's plan of salvation.
The Vision in Ezekiel 1
Ezekiel 1 describes a vivid, awe-inspiring vision of God’s glory, with imagery of wheels, cherubim, and a radiant figure:

“Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him.” (Ezekiel 1:26-27, NIV)​

This figure is often interpreted as a manifestation of God’s glory. Some theologians suggest that this could be a theophany (a visible manifestation of God). Since the Word (Jesus) is described as the visible image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), it is possible to see the figure in Ezekiel 1 as a pre-incarnate appearance of the Word.
Key Takeaways

• Jesus "emptied Himself" of divine privileges but not His divine nature. He retained full divinity while fully embracing humanity.
• In His earthly life, Jesus submitted entirely to the Father’s will, speaking and acting as the Father directed.
• The vision in Ezekiel 1, with its radiant figure, could be seen as the pre-incarnate Word, the visible and audible image of God. This interpretation aligns with the idea that the Word has always been the means through which God reveals Himself.

So, what does the kenosis have to do with the Second Advent in which the risen, glorified King of kings and Lord of lords returns to judge the world? Is Jesus right now still in kenosis mode? Yes or no?

Is Jesus right now fully human?

Is Jesus right now fully divine?

You keep proving how desperate you are to protect your understanding and interpretation of foreknowledge in Rom 8:29 by persisting in driving square pegs into round holes. You are truly the poster child for INSANITY -- and you do know what they say about "insanity", right?

 

[Inquisitor]

The passage in Acts 1 supports my argument. Jesus did not appeal to ignorance in that passage, as he did when in the role of a lowly, humble servant of the Father! After all, his resurrection "declared" him to be the eternal Son of God with power (Rom 1:4). So...what the Father gave him to speak in Acts is materially different than what he gave to Him to speak when in his role of humble servant.

Any more pearls of wisdom for us?

We are not talking about Jesus after His resurrection.

We are discussing the mortal life of Jesus.

From a baby in Bethlehem to the crucifixion and death at Golgotha.

Jesus after His resurrection was no longer a mortal man.

Jesus could appear and disappear at will and no longer needed to walk.

 

[Inquisitor]

So, what does the kenosis have to do with the Second Advent in which the risen, glorified King of kings and Lord of lords returns to judge the world? Is Jesus right now still in kenosis mode? Yes or no?

Is Jesus right now fully human?

Is Jesus right now fully divine?

You keep proving how desperate you are to protect your understanding and interpretation of foreknowledge in Rom 8:29 by persisting in driving square pegs into round holes. You are truly the poster child for INSANITY -- and you do know what they say about "insanity", right?

You were predestined to reflect the image of Jesus.

Comments like these are a reflection of what is in your heart, "the poster child for INSANITY".

 

[Rufus]

You have a problem.

You said, "But the Son of God is eternal".

The Word is eternal but the son of man died on the cross.

Are you inferring that Jesus did not really die on the cross?

How can an eternal Son of God die on the cross?

That is a direct contradiction within the revelation of the Christ.

The words 'eternal' and 'death' are very different words.[/QUOTE]

By your question are you inferring that the Second Person of the God isn't eternal?"

How did Jesus die? He BECAME a man. But he NEVER became the Son of God! He never became the Second Person of the Godhead! And death had no power over Jesus because he was/is/always will be the eternal Son of God!

 

[Inquisitor]

You have no place to ask about scripture when you deny its history. And make insubstantial claims against it.

I asked you a question.

Do you believe that Jesus came in the flesh?

 

[Rufus]

We are not talking about Jesus after His resurrection.

We are discussing the mortal life of Jesus.

From a baby in Bethlehem to the crucifixion and death at Golgotha.

Jesus after His resurrection was no longer a mortal man.

Jesus could appear and disappear at will and no longer needed to walk.

No, YOU are deflecting from the questions I asked re Mat 7:23 by discussing the "mortal life of Jesus". Jesus' "mortal life" and the doctrine of the "kenosis" are totally irrelevant issues to the above passage, since judgment will take place at His second advent. Is Jesus mortal currently? Will Jesus be mortal when he returns to judge the living and the dead?

 

[Inquisitor]

So, what does the kenosis have to do with the Second Advent in which the risen, glorified King of kings and Lord of lords returns to judge the world? Is Jesus right now still in kenosis mode? Yes or no?

Is Jesus right now fully human?

Is Jesus right now fully divine?

You keep proving how desperate you are to protect your understanding and interpretation of foreknowledge in Rom 8:29 by persisting in driving square pegs into round holes. You are truly the poster child for INSANITY -- and you do know what they say about "insanity", right?

You ignore the context constantly to support your theology.

I know when someone has been hurt because they react the way you are acting.

 

[Inquisitor]

No, YOU are deflecting from the questions I asked re Mat 7:23 by discussing the "mortal life of Jesus". Jesus' "mortal life" and the doctrine of the "kenosis" are totally irrelevant issues to the above passage, since judgment will take place at His second advent. Is Jesus mortal currently? Will Jesus be mortal when he returns to judge the living and the dead?

Your posts are confused.

You do not understand the incarnation and you keep babbling about before and after the incarnation.

We are not discussing the future judgement.

We are not discussing the return of Jesus.

Listen Rufus, when Jesus became one of us.