The Church is complicated sometimes

[Seekhope]

Hi,

The church is such an important fellowship of believers and our mission is filled with meaning and purpose. My experience with the church have brought light into my life and changed my perspectives on all things, it taught me that we do not live for ourselves but for Jesus, and therefore serves one another. We are to love each other, and the world will know who Jesus is by our example. However, it is complicated when the church through its leadership and management falls through and conflicts tears down the fellowship. I am sure this has happened many times and many places throughout history, but it is still true that Jesus builds His church. Are there anyone with the experience of seeing their local church getting caught up in conflict and perishing, yet found themselves with a renewed faith in the church and experiencing it as Jesus intended? Feels strange to write this rationally, but I think I am blinded by disappointment and lack /being afraid of trusting in people. How do we get past this?

 

[p_rehbein]

How do we get past this?

Don't look to Church Leaders or members of the Congregation for perfection. Keep your eyes focused on Jesus. Best way to get past anydarnthing this life can throw at you.

Even the Church at Jerusalem had conflicts between the Apostles, and Members. Humans are not perfect. Their beliefs/understandings concerning Scripture will often vary, and this causes conflict within the Congregation.

 

[Dino246]

Hi,

The church is such an important fellowship of believers and our mission is filled with meaning and purpose. My experience with the church have brought light into my life and changed my perspectives on all things, it taught me that we do not live for ourselves but for Jesus, and therefore serves one another. We are to love each other, and the world will know who Jesus is by our example. However, it is complicated when the church through its leadership and management falls through and conflicts tears down the fellowship. I am sure this has happened many times and many places throughout history, but it is still true that Jesus builds His church. Are there anyone with the experience of seeing their local church getting caught up in conflict and perishing, yet found themselves with a renewed faith in the church and experiencing it as Jesus intended? Feels strange to write this rationally, but I think I am blinded by disappointment and lack /being afraid of trusting in people. How do we get past this?

Hello and Welcome to CC!

I have been through one "church split" personally, and left two other congregations over doctrinal differences. In the split, I was saddened to watch a formerly-well-respected older pastor act like a complete tyrant (short of the angry rants and yelling) in an attempt to shut down legitimate discord, which he blithely dismissed as "the bleating of the sheep". About 40% of the congregation left at that time, and the congregation dissolved completely within three years.

It didn't blunt my faith in the least, because I knew then (30 years ago) that the local congregation is not Jesus, and the pastor certainly isn't. Leave, forgive, and move on. Don't let the bad apples ruin your faith!

 

[Magenta]

Welcome!

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi,

The church is such an important fellowship of believers and our mission is filled with meaning and purpose. My experience with the church have brought light into my life and changed my perspectives on all things, it taught me that we do not live for ourselves but for Jesus, and therefore serves one another. We are to love each other, and the world will know who Jesus is by our example. However, it is complicated when the church through its leadership and management falls through and conflicts tears down the fellowship. I am sure this has happened many times and many places throughout history, but it is still true that Jesus builds His church. Are there anyone with the experience of seeing their local church getting caught up in conflict and perishing, yet found themselves with a renewed faith in the church and experiencing it as Jesus intended? Feels strange to write this rationally, but I think I am blinded by disappointment and lack /being afraid of trusting in people. How do we get past this?

1]Sometimes non confessional churches are not unified in what they believe. It is easy for divisions to take place.

2] Sometimes each individual member is not doing what they should. like praying, studying, tending to sermons.

3] Sometimes false teaching comes in causing division.

4] Sometimes you need to find another church that is healthy

 

[Gideon300]

Hi,

The church is such an important fellowship of believers and our mission is filled with meaning and purpose. My experience with the church have brought light into my life and changed my perspectives on all things, it taught me that we do not live for ourselves but for Jesus, and therefore serves one another. We are to love each other, and the world will know who Jesus is by our example. However, it is complicated when the church through its leadership and management falls through and conflicts tears down the fellowship. I am sure this has happened many times and many places throughout history, but it is still true that Jesus builds His church. Are there anyone with the experience of seeing their local church getting caught up in conflict and perishing, yet found themselves with a renewed faith in the church and experiencing it as Jesus intended? Feels strange to write this rationally, but I think I am blinded by disappointment and lack /being afraid of trusting in people. How do we get past this?

I've been through this mill. What became clear was that not all that calls itself church is genuine; not all who claim to be Christians are indeed born again. Surveys suggest that something like 4% of churchgoers are in fact born again. Experience causes me to agree with surveys. This seems appalling and it is.

One pastor I knew had this to say: There are three kinds of people who go to church. They are believers, unbelievers and make believers. Sadly, I have to agree.

His denomination, Pentecostal, had an-on staff evangelist. The pastor asked him why he preached in churches (which he did). The evangelist said that it was the easiest way to get 300 unbelievers in one place. Now a lot of these unbelievers were tongue talking hand waving enthusiasts. Yet they were not born again.

The answer? We are seeing it happen. People are leaving the church in droves. Children no longer attend because their parents did. Since they have no foundation, the world education system can easily destroy what passes for faith. This is an indictment on the church, make believing parents and the shallowness of preaching. The good news is that at least some find that the world offers them nothing but lies and deception and they turn to Jesus.

I was much disappointed in my church, and especially in myself. I quit everything (Bible study and youth group leader) and searched for somewhere that I could get answers. Eventually, I listened to the Lord instead of my raging feelings and He led me to someone who could help. It was a small fellowship, nothing like I was used to. It was a wonderful blessing and I owe the pastor my life in many ways. He went to be with the Lord in 2011. What I learned through him has kept me stable even in difficult times. God will lead you if you seek Him.

 

[gb9]

I've been through this mill. What became clear was that not all that calls itself church is genuine; not all who claim to be Christians are indeed born again. Surveys suggest that something like 4% of churchgoers are in fact born again. Experience causes me to agree with surveys. This seems appalling and it is.

One pastor I knew had this to say: There are three kinds of people who go to church. They are believers, unbelievers and make believers. Sadly, I have to agree.

His denomination, Pentecostal, had an-on staff evangelist. The pastor asked him why he preached in churches (which he did). The evangelist said that it was the easiest way to get 300 unbelievers in one place. Now a lot of these unbelievers were tongue talking hand waving enthusiasts. Yet they were not born again.

The answer? We are seeing it happen. People are leaving the church in droves. Children no longer attend because their parents did. Since they have no foundation, the world education system can easily destroy what passes for faith. This is an indictment on the church, make believing parents and the shallowness of preaching. The good news is that at least some find that the world offers them nothing but lies and deception and they turn to Jesus.

I was much disappointed in my church, and especially in myself. I quit everything (Bible study and youth group leader) and searched for somewhere that I could get answers. Eventually, I listened to the Lord instead of my raging feelings and He led me to someone who could help. It was a small fellowship, nothing like I was used to. It was a wonderful blessing and I owe the pastor my life in many ways. He went to be with the Lord in 2011. What I learned through him has kept me stable even in difficult times. God will lead you if you seek Him.

while we disagree on a lot of things, God bless you for keeping the faith and seeking a true Word from the Father above..

 

[GregMancini]

Hi,

The church is such an important fellowship of believers and our mission is filled with meaning and purpose. My experience with the church have brought light into my life and changed my perspectives on all things, it taught me that we do not live for ourselves but for Jesus, and therefore serves one another. We are to love each other, and the world will know who Jesus is by our example. However, it is complicated when the church through its leadership and management falls through and conflicts tears down the fellowship. I am sure this has happened many times and many places throughout history, but it is still true that Jesus builds His church. Are there anyone with the experience of seeing their local church getting caught up in conflict and perishing, yet found themselves with a renewed faith in the church and experiencing it as Jesus intended? Feels strange to write this rationally, but I think I am blinded by disappointment and lack /being afraid of trusting in people. How do we get past this?

Seek ,I live in Montana and because of our son's disability we haven't been able to attend church here in Montana for years. But we have been through many heart wrenching situations over the years told lies about, accused of not being christian and accused of stealing money from the church. I personally overcame it by remembering that Jesus said forgive them for they 'know what they do as he suffered on the cross because of us and I have forgiven them in the local bodies and depended on Jesus to heal me. I keep my eyes on Jesus and this is who got me through al these sad times.

 

[Gideon300]

while we disagree on a lot of things, God bless you for keeping the faith and seeking a true Word from the Father above..

Thank you

 

[GregMancini]

John 15:5
John 15:5 says, "I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing". If Jesus doesn't have us we will never bear fruit for Him for apart from Him we truly can do nothing and we will never bear everlasting fruit without abiding in the divine vine.

 

[ResidentAlien]

" . . . they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people." Acts 2:46-47

 

[Seekhope]

Seek ,I live in Montana and because of our son's disability we haven't been able to attend church here in Montana for years. But we have been through many heart wrenching situations over the years told lies about, accused of not being christian and accused of stealing money from the church. I personally overcame it by remembering that Jesus said forgive them for they 'know what they do as he suffered on the cross because of us and I have forgiven them in the local bodies and depended on Jesus to heal me. I keep my eyes on Jesus and this is who got me through al these sad times.

Thank you for sharing a part of your story. I have been through similar process; firstly accepting that I cannot influence or change what has happened, secondly forgiving a whole lot of people to release myself and them into further service and thirdly moving on into any new paths that God have planned. My faith in Jesus is there and I do believe He is truly the way, truth and life. What I really find difficult at the moment is the church family. Even though I am aware of our corrupt hearts, I struggle to trust people again, as if “fear of being let down” hinders me to take part in the fellowship, commit myself and serve passionately. I guess even stronger roots in Jesus’ teachings will build the foundation needed to both “survive” and “conquer” this world, and my heart longs for this, at the same time I don’t want to do this alone..

 

[Seekhope]

I've been through this mill. What became clear was that not all that calls itself church is genuine; not all who claim to be Christians are indeed born again. Surveys suggest that something like 4% of churchgoers are in fact born again. Experience causes me to agree with surveys. This seems appalling and it is.

One pastor I knew had this to say: There are three kinds of people who go to church. They are believers, unbelievers and make believers. Sadly, I have to agree.

His denomination, Pentecostal, had an-on staff evangelist. The pastor asked him why he preached in churches (which he did). The evangelist said that it was the easiest way to get 300 unbelievers in one place. Now a lot of these unbelievers were tongue talking hand waving enthusiasts. Yet they were not born again.

The answer? We are seeing it happen. People are leaving the church in droves. Children no longer attend because their parents did. Since they have no foundation, the world education system can easily destroy what passes for faith. This is an indictment on the church, make believing parents and the shallowness of preaching. The good news is that at least some find that the world offers them nothing but lies and deception and they turn to Jesus.

I was much disappointed in my church, and especially in myself. I quit everything (Bible study and youth group leader) and searched for somewhere that I could get answers. Eventually, I listened to the Lord instead of my raging feelings and He led me to someone who could help. It was a small fellowship, nothing like I was used to. It was a wonderful blessing and I owe the pastor my life in many ways. He went to be with the Lord in 2011. What I learned through him has kept me stable even in difficult times. God will lead you if you seek Him.

Hi Gideon300,
Thank you for sharing your reflections and story. I understand and agree that in our world today there is a mix of shallowness within our churches, and our roots and maturity takes time. Where there is shallowness, either in a specific person, a local church or even community I hope that surrounding people with solid bible based faith will reach in with love, grace and truth to build / teach about the necessary deeper faith.

I have been, and still is, in a place where my family and I consider leaving our current church. I am over the angry period after a very thorough process of forgiveness and I look to the future once again, however I struggle with the feeling of “quitting” and “giving up” in hard times and I realize that my fear of being let down by people again is not limited to people in my specific church, rather everyone. I find myself looking for the genuine Jesus followers who 1) carry the Holy Spirit and are not too busy to stop and help the wounded and 2) passionately seeks to live a surrendered life, sadly they are not easily observed.

In your story you made a leap of faith into a new community of believers and this helped you a lot, I am glad to hear this and brings hope. My mind and heart will be open to new paths.

 

[Seekhope]

Hello and Welcome to CC!

I have been through one "church split" personally, and left two other congregations over doctrinal differences. In the split, I was saddened to watch a formerly-well-respected older pastor act like a complete tyrant (short of the angry rants and yelling) in an attempt to shut down legitimate discord, which he blithely dismissed as "the bleating of the sheep". About 40% of the congregation left at that time, and the congregation dissolved completely within three years.

It didn't blunt my faith in the least, because I knew then (30 years ago) that the local congregation is not Jesus, and the pastor certainly isn't. Leave, forgive, and move on. Don't let the bad apples ruin your faith!

Hi Dino246,

Thank you for sharing and your advice. There are similarities within your story and mine, even though it was not doctrinal differences but leadership issues which forced a change of direction. I have been very disappointed seeing my leaders and friends make decisions with such negative consequences for an entire church, and later dissolving. I am past the angry period now and looking towards the future, and I still believe in Jesus. My struggle is believing in the Church. Now some may say you should not believe in the church, and I agree; I do not put my faith in the church. However, the church is the fellowship of believers and amongst us we carry each other, help one another, love one another. teach, encourage, protect, serve etc. It requires a portion of dedication and commitment to take wholeheartedly part in church life.

With the help of Jesus, and hopefully some of His disciples, I can overcome the fear of being let down. I wish to “go out into the world” and bring the gospel of Jesus to people, but I really hope I can do this together with someone (a church) and not alone.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Hi,

The church is such an important fellowship of believers and our mission is filled with meaning and purpose. My experience with the church have brought light into my life and changed my perspectives on all things, it taught me that we do not live for ourselves but for Jesus, and therefore serves one another. We are to love each other, and the world will know who Jesus is by our example. However, it is complicated when the church through its leadership and management falls through and conflicts tears down the fellowship. I am sure this has happened many times and many places throughout history, but it is still true that Jesus builds His church. Are there anyone with the experience of seeing their local church getting caught up in conflict and perishing, yet found themselves with a renewed faith in the church and experiencing it as Jesus intended? Feels strange to write this rationally, but I think I am blinded by disappointment and lack /being afraid of trusting in people. How do we get past this?

Out of curiosity, what did the leadership do that caused this congregation to falter?

It's interesting that you use the word "management." Unfortunately, it's a very common mistake that many people in positions of leadership make, trying to manage things instead of letting Christ and the Holy Spirit manage.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I often wonder why Christians can't just meet, have a meal together, break bread, share the cup, read scripture together, share what they've learned, explain things to others who ask for help, spontaneous sermons by anyone who feels moved by the spirit, pray, sing, cry together, laugh together, no schedule, let the spirit lead as it sees fit, spend more than one hour together, not sit in pews like the action is in front of them instead of in their midst. In other words, doing things that would actually edify the church.

Instead of showing up for one hour to be entertained by a pastor who basically gives a canned sermon that he spent a week preparing or pulled out of his saved folder and who would be mortified if an audience member interrupted his speech to ask for clarification or express disagreement (everyone knows you don't interrupt an entertainer during his show), carefully prepared music in which the audience does not participate, sitting in pews that hinder anything but passive conformance except for maybe an "Amen brother!", conforming to a tight schedule so everyone can hurry up and get on with their lives and get to Golden Corral on time where the real fellowship happens and the lord is not mentioned except for maybe a pre-meal prayer, etc, etc, etc. I'm sure others can add to this list

 

[Seekhope]

Out of curiosity, what did the leadership do that caused this congregation to falter?

It's interesting that you use the word "management." Unfortunately, it's a very common mistake that many people in positions of leadership make, trying to manage things instead of letting Christ and the Holy Spirit manage.

Hi,

In this case the senior pastors leadership style was criticized of being demanding, he was a visionary leader with desires of growth, not necessarily compromising the necessity of deep roots in the biblical teachings. There was a cultural focus which should reflect Christian beliefs and behavior, I.e. love one another, speak life into people’s lives, live surrendered to Jesus ++. Being a contemporary church there’s been a focus on the expression of the church, in terms of music/worship, atmosphere and relational orientation. The team of pastors and admins found the senior pastors fast pace, big vision, focus on details and keeping them accountable in their efforts demanding. They provided feedback, but were not confident that this would result in any changes, and later there came a voting situation where they senior pastor was dismissed. With one of the formerly pastors becoming senior pastor the church attendance dropped and lastly church was closed. The church has joined a similar church a few miles away and church life continues there. In the process of handling leadership issues the church lost the visionary leader, the new replacement leadership has not reached the hearts of the congregation and they struggled to vitalize the church again, hence closing it. Of course the story is far more complicated and contains different aspects and layers, but the result is anyway the same. It was quite painful to be so close to leadership and management (yes, these are surely different and a lot of different people) and seeing the direction our church took without being able to do anything about it. I was just stuck on the roller coaster. I admit that bitterness and anger filled my mind and heart for a long time (2 years +) and I could have guarded my heart much better, it is easier to see this in hindsight.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Hi,

In this case the senior pastors leadership style was criticized of being demanding, he was a visionary leader with desires of growth, not necessarily compromising the necessity of deep roots in the biblical teachings. There was a cultural focus which should reflect Christian beliefs and behavior, I.e. love one another, speak life into people’s lives, live surrendered to Jesus ++. Being a contemporary church there’s been a focus on the expression of the church, in terms of music/worship, atmosphere and relational orientation. The team of pastors and admins found the senior pastors fast pace, big vision, focus on details and keeping them accountable in their efforts demanding. They provided feedback, but were not confident that this would result in any changes, and later there came a voting situation where they senior pastor was dismissed. With one of the formerly pastors becoming senior pastor the church attendance dropped and lastly church was closed. The church has joined a similar church a few miles away and church life continues there. In the process of handling leadership issues the church lost the visionary leader, the new replacement leadership has not reached the hearts of the congregation and they struggled to vitalize the church again, hence closing it. Of course the story is far more complicated and contains different aspects and layers, but the result is anyway the same. It was quite painful to be so close to leadership and management (yes, these are surely different and a lot of different people) and seeing the direction our church took without being able to do anything about it. I was just stuck on the roller coaster. I admit that bitterness and anger filled my mind and heart for a long time (2 years +) and I could have guarded my heart much better, it is easier to see this in hindsight.

I see. I'll pray you'll be able to find peace and find fellowship with a supportive congregation.

 

[studentoftheword]

There is conflict --strife and division in all Churches -----

As Satan is alive and well and is very much involved in all Churches and all Christian Sights just like this one ----bickering --conflict --name calling etc --etc ---

No one can fix the Church from being infiltrated from Satan except Jesus and He His coming back to do just that ----

You need to just defend yourself against all the discord and keep your Faith strong and you do that by Holding up your Shield of Faith ----God has given us His Armor to keep us Grounded and rooted in Him but we fail to use it and that is the Down fall of the True Christian ---in the Church in out of the Church in our daily lives ----

Do what God is telling you to do ----and pay attention to the Sword ---the Sword gives you strength --power and ability ===knowledge and wisdom to stay the course --

From AI

The sword of the spirit is a term used in the Bible to describe the Word of God and its role in spiritual warfare. It is a vital part of a Christian's armor, and is the only offensive weapon given to Christians.

The sword of the spirit is described in the Bible as:

• A divine weapon: The sword is empowered and given by the Holy Spirit, and is not of human origin.
• A symbol of spiritual weaponry: The sword symbolizes the precision and effectiveness of a believer's spiritual weaponry.
• An emphasis on God's power: The sword emphasizes reliance on God's power rather than human strength.

 

[homwardbound]

Hi,

The church is such an important fellowship of believers and our mission is filled with meaning and purpose. My experience with the church have brought light into my life and changed my perspectives on all things, it taught me that we do not live for ourselves but for Jesus, and therefore serves one another. We are to love each other, and the world will know who Jesus is by our example. However, it is complicated when the church through its leadership and management falls through and conflicts tears down the fellowship. I am sure this has happened many times and many places throughout history, but it is still true that Jesus builds His church. Are there anyone with the experience of seeing their local church getting caught up in conflict and perishing, yet found themselves with a renewed faith in the church and experiencing it as Jesus intended? Feels strange to write this rationally, but I think I am blinded by disappointment and lack /being afraid of trusting in people. How do we get past this?

Yes, I have experienced it in more than one Building, called Church here on earth.
I now see differently and do not say for no one to attend buildings, each with free choices to make, understanding God just loves us all, otherwise that cross would not have ever taken place. Jesus went willingly without a flesh fight back at all.
that part floors me, and have asked God to teach me the art of "fighting without fighting" that is a Bruce Lee Quote on the movie "Enter the dragon"

This I see also, that I have never heard or mentioned in any Church attendance, even in Bible studies


Authorized (King James) Version

Hebrews 8:1-4

Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

We in the risen Christ, me at least am freed from under Law that no other flesh but Son's flesh did for us and reconciled us to him and his Father by that last sacrifice in his shed blood, we at least me now hold up the Law as good for me, nom longer under it.
It is done John (19:30) he Son fulfilled it all (Psalm 103:12)
Read Col 1 then Chapter 2 and see the new given you by God for you once you decide to believe God over self and everyone else.
That is where I am at after many long walks off short piers here on earth. One says this and another says that and we better or else attitudes of people supposedly in charge

Interesting and only Father by risen Son teaches anyone new and that person loves all, not a few as religions teaches others to do, that is a gigantic lie to love only those they choose to and use that as if God tells them too do that.
My change began in me when I gave up on me trying to do what no other flesh can do but Son's that did it for us to be new in God's Spirit and Truth leading us

Believe God, receive from God and be new inn God by God's done work of Son thanks