Salvation Lost? Really?

[Gideon300]

Brother, we disagree on politics but you hit the nail on the head here. And what's amazing is that you're British Australian who speaks English, who is able to tell this small (but massive) detail due to you being in Australia perhaps?
Because in some cultures, like mine in Albania, the word "saved" exists in only a few Bible translations because it makes no sense culturally.
Even in English, when you first read this you might say, are we saving a videogame progress here?
So to be more precise we say "What must i do to get to Heaven? Or Paradise?"
Similarly the word "murder" doesn't exist in my language. Only the word "kill".

Interesting stuff and i'm glad you picked on it.
God bless you sir.

Thank you for your comments. Not everyone understands what I'm getting at.

Politics is of the world, the Word of God is eternal. I'm happy to agree to disagree.

I realised at some time what "salvation" really means from Luke 4:18. The gospel really is deliverance from those things that bind and oppress us. It's a great loss to the church that the emphasis (in the West at least) is on getting to heaven when you die. That's what got me born again. I was terrified of hell.

But God saves us for a purpose, and that is to serve in the kingdom of God. This requires total consecration and subsequent deliverances from the "weights and hindrances" and sin that entangles us. (Hebrews 12:1). I'd hate to be what I was 50, 30, or 20 years ago. I'm still far from perfect. But I'm not what I used to be, by the grace of God.

Something else I've learned. We talk about being "saved" by grace a lot, at least we used to. Paul also tells us that we are saved by the life of Jesus. If we replace saved with "delivered", it means that it is the life of Christ which is also the grace of God that delivers. I've found that only complete reliance on the indwelling Lord Jesus is of any spiritual value. The rest is rubbish, fit only for burning, no matter how good it looks to others.

Thank you for you comments

 

[Gideon300]

The new birth accomplished that in my life in an instant. Sanctification is the ongoing process whereby I became stronger in my spiritual stature and understanding of the things of God. All that other stuff...it fell away at the new birth for me.

When you speak of baggage carried through into life after the initial placement of faith in what Christ accomplished for us, and that new birth as an event rather than a process, I'm left wondering of you're talking about people who initiated self-effort to eradicate those things from the side of their lives where habits are entrenched, because the new birth, for me, was an instantaneous change in that moment, so I cannot say that I relate with what you have described.

That's just my take on it in relation to myself rather than saying what you describe is not what others pass through. Trying to analyze all that, making salvation some sort of scientific breakdown of alleged processes that one sectorizes into a compartmentalized soteriology...it's just beyond my personal experience of instantaneous change through the new birth. Many shackles were shattered in my life in that moment, with the attached baggage falling away in an instant.

MM

Some bondages were broken in my life immediately. For example, I went from despising church to wanting to go immediately. I also had a desire for God's word that was absent. However, I also had a battle between my will and God's will. I wanted out of the Navy, where I was saved. God said, "no". It took me a while to accept God's will. I also had a girlfriend who was not of God. That was not an easy time, but we broke up.

There are many statements in God's word that mean we need to be set free after we are born again. Maybe you are perfect already. If so, you are the first I've ever come across. I went through that stage too. I found out that overconfidence is most unwise.

I'm not talking about scientific processes or psychology or any other human endeavor. I'm talking about lived experience where God's will and self will clash, where deep down rebellion is hidden until circumstances expose it and pride is ever attempting to bring us down. Anyone who thinks he stands should beware lest he fall. That's in your Bible too. (1 Corinthians 10:12).

 

[wolfwint]

Not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual. 1 Corinthians 15:46​

No verse which you quotet said, that WE are the spiritual Israel.

 

[GWH]

There was a time, in my more ignorant past, where I believed that one could lose his salvation. Boy was I wrong, and here's why:

To point at someone, or even at self, and claim one or another had lost his or her salvation at some point in the past, or are standing in that jeopardized position at the present time, that is nothing but works-based salvation!

Some may say, "Now, wait a minute! There are many out there who have lost their salvation. Some have even regained it, and then lost it again..." On and on the claims will go by those who are actually trying to convey the idea that they are authorities over who is saved and who is not, sometimes just by looking at others or at themselves throughout the years of their own past.

What REALLY do they know about anything having to do with salvation if it is a thing that can so easily be lost, which leads to no other conclusion than the idea that Holy Spirit has a very weak grasp upon the saved, with many having been plucked from the Hand of Christ Jesus, which is contradictory to the scriptures.

Think about it...if anyone can lose their salvation, then retention of salvation is by the efforts of each individual rather than the perfectly finished work of Christ Jesus. That individual is claiming, then, that they still have theirs because of their own efforts, where others allegedly lost theirs by not retaining it through good works or abstinence from some measure of sin that has a line they cannot define authoritatively.

Folks, that is indeed BOASTING. That is nothing short of silently claiming that they have "worked" to abstain from walking those paths that others were, or are, walking who have allegedly lost their salvation. Do you see the dichotomy in that? Casting salvation into a mixing bowl that has any leavened ingredient of a work on our part, and the entire lump is leavened.

So, who among you has ever known anyone who allegedly ever lost their salvation, and how did you prove that, even if you're going to make yourself the target of that claim? Your feelings? Their feelings? What you saw coming out of them or yourself? Who among us no longer has any expressions of sin exuding from us each and every day? Who among us is living in sinless perfection? Who among us has no sin?

Who here can draw that line that others can see whereby crossing it would or does lead to loss of salvation?

Conversely, pointing at self or someone else, and claiming loss of salvation at some point in the past, how can we know they or you were ever saved at all in the first place to have allegedly lost it?

It's a snake eating its own proverbial tail.

Do you see the issue here?

It is either works, or it is grace. It cannot be both, for there is no power on this earth that can truly intermix them together under the Gospel of Grace.

MM

Accidentally lost, like a stolen coin or misplaced article? No.

Intentionally repudiated, like Satan did when he lost Paradise?

Possibly, unless earthly experience educates saved souls not to be so foolish as to repeat Satan's fall from heaven by teaching them the need for persevering faith/will/cooperation with God--which may be why perseverance is the most repeated doctrine in the NT.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

No verse which you quotet said, that WE are the spiritual Israel.

If you expect to have everything stated explicitly then don't expect to have a deep understanding of scripture. It is God's glory to veil matters so that only the spiritually discerning understand

God's glory hides a saying, but a king's honor searches out a saying. Proverbs 25:2​

 

[GWH]

No verse which you quotet said, that WE are the spiritual Israel.

RM 2:28-29, "A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit..."

 

[studier]

I'm talking about lived experience where God's will and self will clash, where deep down rebellion is hidden until circumstances expose it and pride is ever attempting to bring us down. Anyone who thinks he stands should beware lest he fall. That's in your Bible too. (1 Corinthians 10:12).

Sounds like some years of endurance in the Faith.

 

[studier]

Having thought about this topic many times, I think a good starting point is Jesus’ instruction in John6.

NKJ John 6:59-69 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

• John is making certain through repetition that we know Jesus is dealing with His disciples (6:60, 61, 66). So, we’re being instructed about men who were walking with Jesus (6:66).
• At a point in Jesus’ teaching, what He said caused a strong reaction. Many of Jesus’ disciples said Jesus’ word:
• Was hard/harsh/unpleasant
• Could not be heard (most literal definition) (6:60)
• Jesus knowing in Himself that His disciples complained/grumbled asked them if what He taught offended them (6:61).
• Jesus’ next question in essence asks them to rethink – what if you see Him ascend back into the Heavens where He came from? In other words, who do you think Jesus is?
• Then, here’s the point re: belief and salvation:
• Some of these disciples who were walking with Jesus did not believe.
• Jesus ties this unbelief to not having been given to Him by His Father.
• Observation: God the Father determines if men believe or do not believe.
• Then we’re told who our Father never gave to Jesus – those who did not believe and walked away from Jesus for good.
• Then we’re informed about those our Father did give to Jesus:
• They know there is nowhere else to go but to Jesus who has the words of eternal life
• NKJ Ecc. 3:10-11 I have seen the God-given task with which the sons of men are to be occupied. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
• They know that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God (Paul will later refer to this as the only foundation that can be placed – Jesus [is the] Christ (1Cor3:11).
• Jesus says He will raise all who the Father gives to Him (6:39, 40).
• Jesus says our Father must draw men to Jesus (6:44)
• Our Father draws men to Jesus by teaching them (6:45)
• Men who hear and learn from the Father come to Jesus (6:45)
• I view this coming to Jesus as parallel to believing in Jesus (6:45 c.f. 47).
• Here’s the point:
• Our Father is assessing those who hear and learn from Him about His Son and believe Him about His Son.
• Our Father determines who believes and who to give to Jesus.
• We believe in Jesus if and when our Father says we believe in Jesus.
• Those who truly believe in Jesus – that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God, the only one to go to for eternal life, will remain with Him.
• I say truly believe because it seems to me our omniscient Father who is able to assess the thoughts and intents of the heart, knows when a man truly believes, meaning Faith that will endure.
• This true abiding Faith is not the same as the belief Jesus spoke of in Luke8 in the soils parable that believes for a while. Like it or not, our western minds like to think in ways the Bible does not speak. Belief for awhile is belief but not true abiding belief as determined by our Father in granting men to His Son.
• Jesus will go on to explain things like true discipleship, abiding and enduring Faith (true Faith), etc. John will expand on this in 1John. Other writers will instruct and command things on behalf of Jesus that also teach what true Faith is according to our Father and our Lord.
• At this point, I don’t think we can so called lose our salvation – lose what we never entered into. I think men can believe but not truly believe. I think our Father knows everything and all men, knows who hears and learns from Him about His Son and truly believes in His Son, and He grants such men to His Son.
• Jesus says He will raise all His Father gives to Him.
• So, the question is: Have we been granted to Jesus Christ by God the Father? IOW, have we truly believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, the only one who has the words of and grants eternal life to men?
• If we truly believe Jesus is YHWH’s Christ (Ps2; Acts13:33 Paul’s actual evangelizing) then we will submit to Him as the highest KING (Ps2) and only absolute Ruler and Lord (Jude1:4) who has been given all authority in Heaven and on earth (Matt28:18) to whom all knees shall bow (Rom14:11; Phil2:10). True belief obeys. This should be a major part of our evangelizing.
• It may well take a lifetime to play this out. And therefore, the concept of having eternal life while at the same time knowing eternal life is granted at the judgment. Assurance with an edge of fearing God as we work with our Father to accomplish our salvation with fear and trembling (Phil2:12-13) pursuing the resurrection (Phil3:7-21).

Since so many of these discussions on this site end up dealing with so-called Calvinism, I think the sovereignty of God issue is tied to God teaching and being the sole determiner of who hears and learns and believes and who to grant to His Son. I also think in this granting we may well see His choosing – His election. I also think men retain the faculties of senses and reasoning they were created with and decide if they want to submit to - believe in - God or not, which has been the case since the test of the first man.

 

[Musicmaster]

So, i am not longer a male?
What meant is not that they are not what they are. But there is no different between them, if they are in Christ.
How looks like the practical part in our churches? We make often the different, in skincolour, in society status, nationality and so on.
But good to know that the Lord himself mskes not such differences!

It was my thinking that the verse I quoted established the context, which was only a reference to all who are IN CHRIST.

IN CHRIST there are no distinctions among us. I did not say "on this earth, ion this life here," nor did I imply that, so pushing my point into the realm of goofy absurdity has me wondering about your agenda here.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

No offense but do we feel better now OP? Well this debate if you will has been going on before you and me were born so.. yeah do you feel better because nothing was solved or proven. Your first post should have had many scriptures to back up your personal belief.

You understand what you said "What REALLY do they know about anything having to do with salvation " is now said to you. Sorry who are you to tell anyone what "salvation" is or is not? This comes from a GOD and when even the angels long to understand this salvation.. yeah I highly doubt we fully understand it.

Those are good questions, and I'm glad you brought them up. Salvation is given as a gift on this basis, and this alone:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

THAT is the Gospel, the ONLY Gospel by which we are saved. It is not Peter's Gospel message to Israel, but only Paul's Gospel that originated from Christ that was the mystery hidden in God since the creation of the world, and that had the Princes of this world known about that Mystery, they would NOT have crucified Christ Jesus, as it is written in scripture.

Paul did not uphold any works on our part as valid additives, such as water baptism, ritualistic prayers, sacraments, movements, man-made priesthoods, special garments or anything else that are nothing but man-made bells and whistles that avail nothing in addition to the absolute salvation that results only from grace through faith in that reality about Christ Jesus.

The longevity of this "debate" has nothing to do with any requirement to cease talking about it, just as the antiquity of any doctrine doesn't legitimize it as true.

Its not God saying you can lose your salvation vs God saying you can't. No its some Christian not thinking about the weak in the faith that know are scared. The song playing by Allies "Surrender" from they day you were born come theres a battle going on for your soul. Comes a time in your life when you gotta give somebody control this is it time is now and the change should be like day and night. Its so hard to hold out but its easy when you give up the fight. All your life Hes wanted you cared for you I'm telling you now you know He loves you so..surrender.

Catchy lyrics. However, that there are those out there who believe anyone can lose their salvation, that makes it more than worthy of discussion because of the false fears it encourages.

Where it's true that scripture doesn't focus specifically on this topic, the word of God does say much about things not specifically mentioned that are deeply entrenched in what it DOES say.

The claim for necessity in ritualistic sacraments, for example, is defended on the basis of so-called "church tradition" by those who know that those man-made practices did not originate from the word of God. Such horrific practices introduce a slew of their own problems that also have been debated for centuries, never completely resolved in the absolute sense to the satisfaction of all.

In summary, we discuss such things to try and snatch at least some from the fires...

MM

 

[homwardbound]

I really only use strong language, which you apparently view as condemning, in crucial matters. The OP is sowing confusion in the body of Christ by proclaiming another gospel, which places him under Paul's curse

Okay, do as you will, all are given free choice thanks

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

THAT is the Gospel, the ONLY Gospel by which we are saved. It is not Peter's Gospel message to Israel,

Where do you get this nonsense? Do you even read the bible? Forgiveness of sins and receiving the holy spirit is salvation. This is the gospel Peter proclaimed to Israel and it is the same as what Paul proclaimed in your quote

But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: Acts 2:14​

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Acts 2:22-24​

​

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the holy spirit. Acts 2:37-38​

 

[Musicmaster]

But God saves us for a purpose, and that is to serve in the kingdom of God. This requires total consecration and subsequent deliverances from the "weights and hindrances" and sin that entangles us. (Hebrews 12:1).

Not me. Even though I am Israeli, I am saved under the Gospel of Grace, which means that I am not bound for that earthly Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven. I am headed for life in the Heavenlies. I will not be among those resurrected at the end of the tribulation to enter into the earthly Kingdom with Israel and the saved from the nations who did not take the mark:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The New Jerusalem and new earth are for Israel and the saved of the nations who entered the tribulation. We who pass from the dispensation of Grace are not bound for the Millennial kingdom on this fallen earth, nor are we bound for the New Jerusalem and new earth.

I say all that because you too will be assigned the same dwelling as all the rest of us who rise up from the dispensation of grace period. That does seem to bother some people who think that they will have a choice in the matter, as if they can buy a ticket to the destination of their choice rather than to believe what scripture teaches.

More power to them, but once the veil of this fallen humanity drops from all our eyes and awareness, we ALL will see things differently than our presuppositions in this life here on earth that were not rooted in what scripture says.

MM

 

[Jimbone]

Salvation is conditional, and thus, if one ceases to meet those conditions, they are lost. The word believe as used by the Apostle John , is present continuous "continues to believe'. You say a Christian cannot be unborn but they can die spiritually speaking.
I will not quote passages of Scripture as the plain meaning of them is explained away through the lens of OSAS..

Nope, you're wrong and speak of a weak God that does not save in power. If you believe we can be spiritually resurrected by the Creator of everything, in power, and then He will kill our spirit or cut us back off, or even allow His child to be cut off from Him, you're wrong.

It is OSAS 1000% all day, ALL GLORY TO God!!!, however, I can understand why you think we can lose salvation, I do, but it's based on a false understanding of the power dynamic between us and Him. What you're teaching here is an unsure but nice God that puts us on cosmic probation. If we obey good enough then we get to stay, He puts it ALL on our shoulders.

This as as false as your idea of what we mean when we say OSAS. This DOES NOT MEAN that I get my golden ticket punched and can now sin without worry. So what you call OSAS I condemn as well, but the God that saved me in power transformed me in a way that I now DESIRE to serve Him, now I've seen, in truth, the price Jesus paid so I could be spiritually resurrected and reconnected to His Spirit, is something I could NEVER walk away from and nothing can separate me from, He keeps me in power. That's the God I know, serve, and read about. I know nothing of the weak trickster you're talking about that save people to fall away from Him, He saves us to shoulder all the burden of "being good enough", a VERY HEAVY yolk indeed. Where do you read about that god?

 

[wolfwint]

If you expect to have everything stated explicitly then don't expect to have a deep understanding of scripture. It is God's glory to veil matters so that only the spiritually discerning understand

God's glory hides a saying, but a king's honor searches out a saying. Proverbs 25:2​

That means not that we can form the sayings of the scripture according our own views.
If you cant show me that the church of Christ is the spiritual Israel. It has for me no Fundament to believe it.

 

[Musicmaster]

Maybe you are perfect already. If so, you are the first I've ever come across. I went through that stage too. I found out that overconfidence is most unwise.

I'm not sure where or why you went there concerning myself since you absolutely do not know me, nor have you met me face to face in order to ascertain any measure of discernment about me. Did I speak with confidence on this topic? Yes, which is what we ALL should be doing of those things clearly stated or absolutely entrenched within scripture through various other anchors therein.

So, are you saying that there is such a thing as lost salvation?

If not, then what's your point? I am curious about the derivation that drove you to the fringes of ad hominem, because to even hint at the idea of perfection as a self-vision on my part, that is indeed an address of character rather than sticking strictly to the topic at hand. Despots out there who see themselves as perfect in all their doctrine are indeed expressing a warped and twisted personality; an extreme that I do not believe I have ever even given a hint.

So, if you DO believe such a thing as loss of salvation, then how does one escape the inevitable fact that such a loss clearly denotes the requirement for effort of works in order to maintain one's standing in the state of salvation? What other conclusion is there other than accidental loss, which also enjoys the same level of absurdity as intentional loss? I mean, please do elaborate if that is your position. Never mind the struggles and all the other distractions that have arisen within this discussion, let's just stick to that topic, if you don't mind. I would very much appreciate that.

Thanks for your feedback.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Having thought about this topic many times, I think a good starting point is Jesus’ instruction in John6.

NKJ John 6:59-69 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?" 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 "What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also want to go away?" 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

What's problematic about this post of yours is the broadening of Jesus' statement to include all of mankind rather than the scope limitation that the context clearly established in that He was speaking only of his disciples who became His apostles. The very next verse you highlighted clarified His meaning.

The subjective broadening of His statement to all of mankind and salvation itself, that's extreme Calvinism all over again, which violates and corrupts the perfect justice of God. This also does not support the idea for loss of salvation for anyone.

If no man could be saved except that the Father draw them to Jesus, then He made a mistake in this very same context when addressing all of mankind in general:

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. I do not believe the Lord would ever leave any loose ends to His statements whereby they could be misconstrued to convey free moral agency. This and MANY other scripture give to us the clear absolute for freedom to choose within each one of us. That anyone who follow TULIP would think that God MUST choose the exercise every possible vestige of Sovereignty over mankind, that is as preposterous as the cultic beliefs within Mormonism whereby they too corrupt the perfect justice of the REAL God by basically laying claim to the idea that their false god committed fornication with their Mary in order to bring about their false Jesus into being on this earth.

MM

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

That means not that we can form the sayings of the scripture according our own views.
If you cant show me that the church of Christ is the spiritual Israel. It has for me no Fundament to believe it.

When we listen for the witness of the holy spirit, then it is not our view. If you can't hear what the spirit is saying from what I've shown you, or at a minimum be curious, why should I bother with more effort?

 

[lrs68]

Even in the New Testament we read about the Fear of God like we do throughout the Old Testament. But Many of these modern day Grace doctrines literally have removed this from the daily life of the believer. There's a reason God included having a Fear of God throughout the entire Bible.

I will say this much. Those who believe they are saved but have no Fear of God are lost and going to Hell. They have been seduced by doctrine full of demonic spirits and believe in a lie.

 

[Musicmaster]

Even in the New Testament we read about the Fear of God like we do throughout the Old Testament. But Many of these modern day Grace doctrines literally have removed this from the daily life of the believer. There's a reason God included having a Fear of God throughout the entire Bible.

I will say this much. Those who believe they are saved but have no Fear of God are lost and going to Hell. They have been seduced by doctrine full of demonic spirits and believe in a lie.

If you're including all who believe in salvation by grace through faith, then you must also include Paul in that crowd, for HE is the one who preached salvation by grace through faith.

Tell me, do you believe in water baptism unto the remission of sins, as was preached by Peter in Acts 2? If so, how does that automatically point to a fear of God? Do works somehow prove a fear of God greater than that held to by those of us who believe in salvation by grace through faith?

You appear to have made some seemingly blanket claims that give the appearance of your having shoved Christ off His Throne to make way for yourself to usurp His position for salvational Judgement. From where do you derive such authority, if I may ask?

Please clarify your point?

MM