Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

Romans 9:18; John 6:44; John 6:65; John 6:37; John 6:63; Titus 3:5 ~ God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. He saved us because of His mercy, through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

 

[fredoheaven]

Because this system is a "construct of men's imagination" sprinkled with some truth, it is like what John Piper states in his book “Five Points”......

He asserts that he will start with the Scriptures and end with TULIP.

But in reality he ends up defending TULIP with Scripture.

Typically they are very defensive and even though they have Google putting their websites at the tippy top of the search list the tide is turning, but not fast enough.

Yet, since it appeals to the ego it will probably never go away...... but to the very back of the closet would be good!

Yep, tulip ends when the scripture begins.

 

[Genez]

Romans 9:18; John 6:44; John 6:65; John 6:37; John 6:63; Titus 3:5 ~ God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. He saved us because of His mercy, through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

John 6:44

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,
and I will raise them up at the last day. "


Why did Jesus say that?

Becuase he was rebuking the Jewish salvation by works crowd who were seeking new works to do in order to secure salvation.

 

[HeIsHere]

John 6:44

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,
and I will raise them up at the last day. "


Why did Jesus say that?

Because he was rebuking the Jewish salvation by works crowd who were seeking new works to do in order to secure salvation.

Context what's that?

 

[Genez]

Context what's that?

Was that a question? Or being sarcastic a bit?

 

[brightfame52]

But Romans is MORE than a book. It's a LETTER! It's an EPISTLE! So Paul wrote a personal letter having no original audience in mind? He just wrote stuff TO No One? To whom was his letter to be delivered? You need some serious help! Read 1:7 for starters, which Paul starts off with TO.....

The Book of Romans was written to the called, them that had Faith Rom 1:6-8

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So ethnicity isnt an issue, though the people of faith were some jews but mostly gentiles, yet people of Faith

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 9,10,11 is about and for the Jews, not the Gentiles.

It is for Gentile believers , thats why Rom 10:12-13

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[HeIsHere]

Was that a question? Or being sarcastic a bit?

I was appreciating the context you added.

 

[Magenta]

Context what's that?

I do realize you believe you needed no help. You were super special!

I also realize that some things are true regardless of who said what to whom, and when.

And I am aware, too, that there are those who think otherwise.

 

[HeIsHere]

As you can see, He has declared that He has a holy people (set aside) to be his treasured possession. Your "any and all" applies only to them, not the world.

2 Peter 3:9 Adj-AMP
GRK: ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν
NAS: to perish but for all to come
KJV: but that all should come
INT: to perish but all to repentance

Romans 3:9 Adj-AMP
GRK: καὶ Ἕλληνας πάντας ὑφ' ἁμαρτίαν
NAS: Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
KJV: Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
INT: and Greeks all under sin

Link

So then only those set aside are under sin.
Makes sense to me.

 

[Magenta]

2 Peter 3:9

 

[brightfame52]

2 Peter 3:9 Adj-AMP
GRK: ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν
NAS: to perish but for all to come
KJV: but that all should come
INT: to perish but all to repentance

Romans 3:9 Adj-AMP
GRK: καὶ Ἕλληνας πάντας ὑφ' ἁμαρτίαν
NAS: Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
KJV: Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
INT: and Greeks all under sin

Link

So then only those set aside are under sin.
Makes sense to me.

Those verses are restricted to the elect, even though the non elect are under sins, that passage isnt talking about them per say. All elect men jew and gentile are born under sin,its power, in need of the redemption thats provided for only the elect,

2 Pet 3:9 is only all the elect, the non elect are going to perish in perdition Vs 7

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

It is for Gentile believers , thats why Rom 10:12-13

Paul’s Anguish Over Israel
9 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.

God’s Sovereign Choice
6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[b] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”[i]
26 and,
“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[j]
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[k]
29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”[l]
Israel’s Unbelief
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

It is for Gentile believers , thats why Rom 10:12-13
.

10 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.


5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”[b] (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”[i]

19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”[j]
20 And Isaiah boldly says,

“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”[k]
21 But concerning Israel he says,

“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”[l]

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

It is for Gentile believers , thats why Rom 10:12-13
.

Romans 11

11 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day.”[c]

9 And David says:

“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”[d]
Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Doxology
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[i] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”[j]
35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”[k]
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.


All three chapers, nothing removed. Please show me where it is about Gentiles and not the Jewish people.

 

[brightfame52]

@ThereRoseaLamb

Paul’s Anguish Over Israel

Only the elect remnant, not the whole nation, but the letter was still to the people of faith jew and gentile

 

[brightfame52]

@ThereRoseaLamb

10 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

That was for the elect remnant, and elect gentiles who are also part of elect israel, thats why he added the whosoever clause vs 11-13

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So he prayed for his elect jewish brethren and elect gentile brethren to be saved, that is converted, they were already regenerated.

 

[BillyBob]

But not ALL Israel pursued "a law that would lead to righteousness". If every single OT Jew did that, then there wouldn't be such a thing as OT saints! How could there be? Were the OT saints justified by keeping the law?

There has always been a remnant which were set aside by God. This group was not around when Christ died, but they understood that a savior would come later. Therefore, they had faith and followed God.

 

[rogerg]

Those verses are restricted to the elect, even though the non elect are under sins, that passage isnt talking about them per say. All elect men jew and gentile are born under sin,its power, in need of the redemption thats provided for only the elect,

2 Pet 3:9 is only all the elect, the non elect are going to perish in perdition Vs 7

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Absolutely correct, brightfame52. This is seen in the salutation of the book where Peter makes clear that he is specifically addressing God's elect, not everyone. Therefore, the "us-ward" and "all" (KJV) or the "you" and "everyone" (NIV) of 2 Pet 3:9, is speaking of God's longsuffering towards them - that God is not willing that they perish. And from that, God gives repentance as a gift upon spiritual rebirth.

[2Pe 1:1 KJV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness

[2Pe 1:1 NIV]
1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

[2Pe 3:9 KJV]
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


[2Pe 3:9 NIV]
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[rogerg]

All three chapers, nothing removed. Please show me where it is about Gentiles and not the Jewish people.

The elect - those chosen of all nations, kindreds, peoples and tongues - have become the singular people of God.

[1Pe 2:7-10 KJV]

7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.