Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture
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Arnold Fruchtenbaum, maybe.
but yes, there was a turning point, and that in itself had a judicial context - evidence had been presented, and a certain population representing the nation had testified of their rejection - hence the prophesied judgement which included a spirit of stupor, and of seeing but not perceiving.
i don't think this is at issue, but i think you can probably see that some object to the idea God would hide knowledge from anyone, ever, under any circumstances. that view is clearly incorrect; Christ told us it is part and parcel of His reason for speaking in parables. His explanation is being weirdly rejected here, and crazy attempts to circularly explain away His explicit words are being made.
i haven't concerned myself with why He did this so much as the fact that He did, because that very fact is being rejected. it needs to be accepted as true before we can think about why
but yes, there was a turning point, and that in itself had a judicial context - evidence had been presented, and a certain population representing the nation had testified of their rejection - hence the prophesied judgement which included a spirit of stupor, and of seeing but not perceiving.
i don't think this is at issue, but i think you can probably see that some object to the idea God would hide knowledge from anyone, ever, under any circumstances. that view is clearly incorrect; Christ told us it is part and parcel of His reason for speaking in parables. His explanation is being weirdly rejected here, and crazy attempts to circularly explain away His explicit words are being made.
i haven't concerned myself with why He did this so much as the fact that He did, because that very fact is being rejected. it needs to be accepted as true before we can think about why
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I believe the Parable of the Bags of Gold in MT 25:14-30 is the last teaching of Jesus in MT that is labelled as a parable, unless I have overlooked one.
A rich man going on a journey called three servants and entrusted them with different amounts of gold. One servant received five bags of gold, which he invested and made five bags more. Another servant received two bags and he made an additional two bags. The third servant received one bag, which he hid in a hole he dug in the ground. After awhile the servants' master returned and ordered an accounting. The first servant brought him the ten bags of gold, whereupon the master said, "Well done, good and faithful servant... Come and share your master's happiness. The second servant brought the four bags of gold and likewise was commended. Then the third servant brought the one bag of gold, saying, "...here is what belongs to you", and his master replied, "You wicked, lazy servant!... Take that bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags... And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
The remainder of MT 25 is a sort of semi-parable about sheep and goats, because it lacks the typical introduction saying "The kingdom of heaven is like...", and the conclusion has the sheep going to eternal life and the goats going to eternal punishment, but without including the phrase about "weeping and gnashing of teeth".
Anyway, now that we have listened to GW on the subject of parables, we can discuss our interpretations or what we have learned without proof-texting.
A rich man going on a journey called three servants and entrusted them with different amounts of gold. One servant received five bags of gold, which he invested and made five bags more. Another servant received two bags and he made an additional two bags. The third servant received one bag, which he hid in a hole he dug in the ground. After awhile the servants' master returned and ordered an accounting. The first servant brought him the ten bags of gold, whereupon the master said, "Well done, good and faithful servant... Come and share your master's happiness. The second servant brought the four bags of gold and likewise was commended. Then the third servant brought the one bag of gold, saying, "...here is what belongs to you", and his master replied, "You wicked, lazy servant!... Take that bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags... And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
The remainder of MT 25 is a sort of semi-parable about sheep and goats, because it lacks the typical introduction saying "The kingdom of heaven is like...", and the conclusion has the sheep going to eternal life and the goats going to eternal punishment, but without including the phrase about "weeping and gnashing of teeth".
Anyway, now that we have listened to GW on the subject of parables, we can discuss our interpretations or what we have learned without proof-texting.
The Doctrine of Parables per Matthew:
Title, Post #, Scripture - The Parable of the Seeds (#116), MT 13:1-23
Meaning – (per v.18-23) seed = GW re the KOH, understands = believes, healed = saved; He who is able and thus accountable, let him believe GW, especially re GRFS or the Gospel and be saved.
Purpose – (per v.13-14) To fulfill IS 6:9-10 re people with calloused hearts who remain unhealed.
Interpretation(s) – 1. Jesus did not want “them” (v.11) to learn GW or understand the meaning of the parables and repent of atheism (being anti-Christ) and be healed, implying that he hated his enemies (vice MT 5:44).
2. Jesus employed parables as a means of pre-sifting souls. In this parable the good and bad soils indicated who was saved or not by showing who would understand/believe or not, and Jesus lamented the fact that many were/did not (per MT 23:37), because he loved everyone (MT 22:39, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4).
Title, Post #, Scripture - The Parable of the Seeds (#116), MT 13:1-23
Meaning – (per v.18-23) seed = GW re the KOH, understands = believes, healed = saved; He who is able and thus accountable, let him believe GW, especially re GRFS or the Gospel and be saved.
Purpose – (per v.13-14) To fulfill IS 6:9-10 re people with calloused hearts who remain unhealed.
Interpretation(s) – 1. Jesus did not want “them” (v.11) to learn GW or understand the meaning of the parables and repent of atheism (being anti-Christ) and be healed, implying that he hated his enemies (vice MT 5:44).
2. Jesus employed parables as a means of pre-sifting souls. In this parable the good and bad soils indicated who was saved or not by showing who would understand/believe or not, and Jesus lamented the fact that many were/did not (per MT 23:37), because he loved everyone (MT 22:39, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4).
Some observations re: the Kingdom ("KOH"):
- Its servants:
- Are to be watchful and diligent - the Master's return is immanent 25:13-14
- Have been called to service in their Master's absence 25:14
- Have varying capabilities and are entrusted accordingly 25:15
- The Master knows their capabilities
- The Master is fair in entrusting them commensurate with their capabilities
- Know they are entrusted with valuable goods for service 25:16-18
- Are given much time 25:19
- Will face a reckoning 25:19
- Miscellaneous:
- Economics principles are functioning in the KOH in its current state
- The Lord requires productivity - work
- The word "gain" means to acquire by effort 25:20, 22
- In investing at a point of having it's more difficult to achieve returns
- To make 100% on 5 can be more difficult to make than 100% on 2
- The Lord providing according to capabilities shows His discernment and expectations
- To whom much is given, much is sought Luke12:48
- The Lord taking the one and giving to the servant with 10 shows His discernment and wisdom 25:28
- The relatively incapable servant given one talent:
- He does not know his Lord - not our Lord anyway 25:24
- He says he is afraid of the Lord 25:25
- What the Lord entrusted him with he "concealed," did nothing with and just gave it back to the Lord - he was completely unproductive in service 25:25
- The Lord says he is worthless and not just "lazy" but reluctant, hesitant, he shrinks back from involvement 25:26
- "Worthless" is frequently used in the Text for sinful things
- "Lazy" is used in Romans in contrast to diligence (a good word to study) and is a good section of Scripture to apply here. Note the command to not be lazy/slothful and the context of love and service: ESV Rom12:10-11 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
- I also think the Lord is challenging him re: his alleged fear. If he was truly in fear of the Lord, then he would have at least attempted to be productive.
- Considerations re: the worthless servant:
- The Lord knew his servants' capabilities, so he knew the worthless servant.
- The Lord gave him opportunity knowing he would squander it
- This seems to me consistent with the hardening we've been discussing
- The worthless servant does not enter the KOH even though he was given opportunity to enter
- The productive servants:
- The Lord judges them to be good and faithful
- They obviously did good works
- They are given to enter the KOH
- They are put in charge of much
Yes, indeed. I will go ahead and present the Parable of the Weeds.
Title, Post #, Scripture - The Parable of the Weeds (#122), MT 13:24-30
Meaning – (per v.36-43) sower = Son of Man, field = world, wheat seed = saved souls, weeds = unsaved souls, enemy = devil;
Saved souls will be separated from evil souls at the end of the age, when those who are of the devil will be cast into hell.
Purpose – (per v.34-35) To fulfill PS 78:2 re parables used to reveal what has been hidden.
Interpretation(s):
1. Essentially the same as the Parable of the Seeds (per v.43): Jesus did not want some of them (v.11) to understand/believe the meaning of the parable and repent of serving Satan (being anti-Christ) so they could become good seed, implying that he hated those souls (vice MT 5:44).
2. Similar to the Seeds parable (per v.43), but using different imagery or metaphors as a means of pre-sifting souls or indicating who repented and was saved or not, and Jesus lamented the fact that some did/were not (per MT 23:37), because he loved everyone (MT 22:39, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4).
I noticed that I skipped the Parables of the Mustard Seed and the Yeast, so I will present them next time.
Title, Post #, Scripture - The Parable of the Weeds (#122), MT 13:24-30
Meaning – (per v.36-43) sower = Son of Man, field = world, wheat seed = saved souls, weeds = unsaved souls, enemy = devil;
Saved souls will be separated from evil souls at the end of the age, when those who are of the devil will be cast into hell.
Purpose – (per v.34-35) To fulfill PS 78:2 re parables used to reveal what has been hidden.
Interpretation(s):
1. Essentially the same as the Parable of the Seeds (per v.43): Jesus did not want some of them (v.11) to understand/believe the meaning of the parable and repent of serving Satan (being anti-Christ) so they could become good seed, implying that he hated those souls (vice MT 5:44).
2. Similar to the Seeds parable (per v.43), but using different imagery or metaphors as a means of pre-sifting souls or indicating who repented and was saved or not, and Jesus lamented the fact that some did/were not (per MT 23:37), because he loved everyone (MT 22:39, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4).
I noticed that I skipped the Parables of the Mustard Seed and the Yeast, so I will present them next time.
Here they are:
Title, Post #, Scripture - The Parable of the Mustard Seed (#253), MT 13:31-32
Meaning – mustard seed = the KOH, field = world; The KOH began with few saved souls, but it will grow and become worldwide.
Purpose – (per v.34-35) To fulfill PS 78:2 re parables used to reveal what has been hidden.
Interpretation(s):
1. Ditto: Jesus did not want some of them (v.11) to understand/believe the meaning of the parable and become part of the catholic community of saved souls.
2. Jesus employed this brief parable (simile) to teach that God’s will is for the world to be filled with the KOH (which would serve as its salt and light per MT 5:13-16), because He loved everyone (MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4).
Title, Post #, Scripture - The Parable of the Yeast (#253), MT 13:33
Meaning – yeast = mustard seed/KOH, dough = field/world; same as the previous parable or simile: The KOH began with few saved souls, but it will grow and become worldwide.
Purpose – (per v.34-35) To fulfill PS 78:2 re parables used to reveal what has been hidden.
Interpretation(s):
1. Double Ditto: Jesus did not want some of them (v.11) to understand/believe the meaning of the parable and become part of the catholic community of saved souls.
2. Jesus employed this brief parable/simile to teach that the world will become filled with the KOH (which serves as its salt and light per MT 5:13-16), because He loved everyone in the world and wants them to be saved (MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4).
Title, Post #, Scripture - The Parable of the Mustard Seed (#253), MT 13:31-32
Meaning – mustard seed = the KOH, field = world; The KOH began with few saved souls, but it will grow and become worldwide.
Purpose – (per v.34-35) To fulfill PS 78:2 re parables used to reveal what has been hidden.
Interpretation(s):
1. Ditto: Jesus did not want some of them (v.11) to understand/believe the meaning of the parable and become part of the catholic community of saved souls.
2. Jesus employed this brief parable (simile) to teach that God’s will is for the world to be filled with the KOH (which would serve as its salt and light per MT 5:13-16), because He loved everyone (MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4).
Title, Post #, Scripture - The Parable of the Yeast (#253), MT 13:33
Meaning – yeast = mustard seed/KOH, dough = field/world; same as the previous parable or simile: The KOH began with few saved souls, but it will grow and become worldwide.
Purpose – (per v.34-35) To fulfill PS 78:2 re parables used to reveal what has been hidden.
Interpretation(s):
1. Double Ditto: Jesus did not want some of them (v.11) to understand/believe the meaning of the parable and become part of the catholic community of saved souls.
2. Jesus employed this brief parable/simile to teach that the world will become filled with the KOH (which serves as its salt and light per MT 5:13-16), because He loved everyone in the world and wants them to be saved (MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4).
- Understands doesn't necessarily = believes
- 13:18 hears > does not understand > sown in heart > seized [from his heart] by the evil one
- Understanding is a precursor to functional belief
- Where is "healed" mentioned?
- 13:9 is a command to listen, pay attention, and can trend into learn, understand, even obey what you hear
- The man who has ears, Listen Up!
- The Lord commands - an authority-oriented man pays attention - obeys.
Or, because Jesus knew Is6 and this event was later in His ministry to many who had been rejecting Him He knew the condition of His audience and He "for this reason" 13:13 spoke in parables to carry on in the Is6 tradition?
#1:
- Your bias is showing.
- 13:11 is using perfect tense verbs. So, Jesus is recognizing what has been going on and still is at the point of His saying this. Some have not been given to know and some have been given. If they were not like the Is6 generation, they would have understood and believed by now, but they haven't. For this reason, He is now teaching in parables and explaining to those who are listening and asking.
- This does not conflict with God's desire that all men be saved / come to practical/usable knowledge of truth. It is the factual and truthful recognition that men choose to disobey and reject Him and at some point, He honors and, in a way, even feeds it by continuing to teach in their presence which continues to provide opportunity for repentance but also opportunity for more rejection.
- Since God desires all men be saved / come to practical/usable knowledge of truth, He in love continues to provide truth and laments men's willful disobedience and rejection but allows it and even facilitates it at some point. His love works in harmony with His righteousness and justice and hatred of unrighteousness which is sin and lawlessness.
- What shows who truly believes is:
- When one hears and understands and comes to belief as the seed is sown, watered, and God causes the growth.
- When one hears and receives (believes) and lastingly endures (as is commanded in the NC) through troubles and persecutions because of the Word without immediately stumbling [into sin/unbelief].
- When one hears/obeys the Word, and the Word does not get pressured/choked out by cares and deceitfulness which cause it to become unfruitful/unproductive.
- When one hears and understands [the Word] and is fruitful/productive [to varying degrees among these ones].
- There's always debate re: belief in the 4 soils:
- It seems generally recognized that soil 1 is unbelief
- IMO:
- Soil 2 is belief but not true belief that God honors and uses in granting men to His Son (J6) - true belief endures and works
- Soil 3 is belief but again not lasting and not working
- Soil 4 is true belief - Biblical Faith - The Word is sown, watered, God causes the growth, it produces to varying degrees.
- Observations re: God and parables:
- God allows unbelief
- God allows evil to steal the Word from men's hearts
- God allows men to believe and then fall into unrepentant sin - non-enduring belief
- God allows men to believe and then find more value in the world than in His Word - also non-enduring belief
- God creates new men to do good works
- The Word will be sown, watered, and will grow in them
- They will endure in the Faith and not fall away into unrepentant sin
- They will endure in the Faith, be productive in and for the Kingdom and not care more for things and riches in the world
- They will endure in the Faith and do good works - be fruitful/productive in and for the Kingdom
- God values those who value Him and recognize true, lasting value and working at and for it.
Regarding "Understands doesn't necessarily = believes" & "understanding is a precursor to functional belief... 13:9 is a command to listen, pay attention, and can trend into learn, understand, even obey what you hear": Careful, it sounds on the verge of talking out of both sides of one's mouth.
Regarding "Where is "healed" mentioned?": v.15.
Regarding "Your bias is showing.": The only bias I am showing is the desire for a doctrine of parables based on the parables.
Regarding "This does not conflict with God's desire that all men be saved / come to practical/usable knowledge of truth. It is the factual and truthful recognition that men choose to disobey and reject Him.": I agree.
Regarding "His love works in harmony with His righteousness and justice and hatred of unrighteousness which is sin and lawlessness.": Amen.
Regarding "It seems generally recognized that soil 1 is unbelief. IMO: Soil 2 is belief but not true belief that God honors and uses in granting men to His Son (J6) - true belief endures and works; Soil 3 is belief but again not lasting and not working; Soil 4 is true belief - Biblical Faith - The Word is sown, watered, God causes the growth, it produces to varying degrees." Yes, soil 4 is persevering faith.
Regarding "Observations re: God and parables: God allows unbelief...": Yes, folks verge on blasphemy when they impugn God's omnilove/righteousness.
Regarding "Where is "healed" mentioned?": v.15.
Regarding "Your bias is showing.": The only bias I am showing is the desire for a doctrine of parables based on the parables.
Regarding "This does not conflict with God's desire that all men be saved / come to practical/usable knowledge of truth. It is the factual and truthful recognition that men choose to disobey and reject Him.": I agree.
Regarding "His love works in harmony with His righteousness and justice and hatred of unrighteousness which is sin and lawlessness.": Amen.
Regarding "It seems generally recognized that soil 1 is unbelief. IMO: Soil 2 is belief but not true belief that God honors and uses in granting men to His Son (J6) - true belief endures and works; Soil 3 is belief but again not lasting and not working; Soil 4 is true belief - Biblical Faith - The Word is sown, watered, God causes the growth, it produces to varying degrees." Yes, soil 4 is persevering faith.
Regarding "Observations re: God and parables: God allows unbelief...": Yes, folks verge on blasphemy when they impugn God's omnilove/righteousness.
Maybe. But on the verge maintains a dividing line. Did I not maintain it? Akouo can be interesting to deal with, if that's what you're pointing out. There's a reason I said it can trend into...
Thanks. This threw me a bit: 13:15 seems very important to this parable (maybe others in Matt also). Probably important to discuss. Seems formulaic: See with eyes & Hear with ears > Understand with hearts > Turn > Be healed/restored by the Lord
If you'd like to go through 13:11-17 in detail to make your point #1 make sense, I'll do so with you and see what we come up with.
While we're at it I'd ask you to also explain some of your language in your point #2.
Do you see belief in Soil 2 & 3? This would be the area I'd be more concerned re: talking out of both side of my mouth. There is a reason I'm adding the descriptives "true" and "Biblical".
Will you define your word "omnilove"?
Thanks. This threw me a bit: 13:15 seems very important to this parable (maybe others in Matt also). Probably important to discuss. Seems formulaic: See with eyes & Hear with ears > Understand with hearts > Turn > Be healed/restored by the Lord
- Understand could be compared to believe here, but do we need understand & turn to interpret the belief? Or is understand = belief as you said, then turn because understand/believe?
If you'd like to go through 13:11-17 in detail to make your point #1 make sense, I'll do so with you and see what we come up with.
While we're at it I'd ask you to also explain some of your language in your point #2.
Do you see belief in Soil 2 & 3? This would be the area I'd be more concerned re: talking out of both side of my mouth. There is a reason I'm adding the descriptives "true" and "Biblical".
Will you define your word "omnilove"?
Re "Understands doesn't necessarily = believes" & "understanding is a precursor to functional belief": It just seemed like you were disagreeing with the implication that understanding was salvific per the way it functioned in the parable and agreeing that it functioned as salvific faith at the same time.
Re "13:15 [IS 6:9-10] seems very important to this parable... Seems formulaic: See with eyes & Hear with ears > Understand with hearts > Turn > Be healed/restored by the Lord": I think you hit on something significant there--but perhaps more thematic than formulaic--and a theme that carried through the end of Paul's ministry per ACTS 28:26-27.
Re "The bias that comes across to me is a conclusion that purposely teaching in parables to make the hidden things of the Kingdom not be clearly given to some means Jesus "did not want them to learn" and thus "hated His enemies".: Right reasoning is not bias. How can not wanting someone to LGW and be saved (vice 1TM 2:3-4) be interpreted logically any other way?
Re "If you'd like to go through 13:11-17 in detail to make your point #1 make sense, I'll do so with you and see what we come up with. While we're at it I'd ask you to also explain some of your language in your point #2.": Okay, what specifically?
Re "Will you define your word "omnilove"?": I already did: (MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4 :^)
Re "13:15 [IS 6:9-10] seems very important to this parable... Seems formulaic: See with eyes & Hear with ears > Understand with hearts > Turn > Be healed/restored by the Lord": I think you hit on something significant there--but perhaps more thematic than formulaic--and a theme that carried through the end of Paul's ministry per ACTS 28:26-27.
Re "The bias that comes across to me is a conclusion that purposely teaching in parables to make the hidden things of the Kingdom not be clearly given to some means Jesus "did not want them to learn" and thus "hated His enemies".: Right reasoning is not bias. How can not wanting someone to LGW and be saved (vice 1TM 2:3-4) be interpreted logically any other way?
Re "If you'd like to go through 13:11-17 in detail to make your point #1 make sense, I'll do so with you and see what we come up with. While we're at it I'd ask you to also explain some of your language in your point #2.": Okay, what specifically?
Re "Will you define your word "omnilove"?": I already did: (MT 5:44&48, JN 3:16, RM 5:6-8, 1TM 2:3-4 :^)
Biased towards what you deem right reasoning.
God is ruling a creation of good and bad. He desires the good but has allowed the bad and allows men to choose good and bad. Based upon who He is He must deal with the bad as well as the good.
Earlier I said I think you're unbalancing perfectly balanced divine essence.
Now I think you're inserting desire where it does not belong and thereby creating the illogical conclusion:
God is ruling a creation of good and bad. He desires the good but has allowed the bad and allows men to choose good and bad. Based upon who He is He must deal with the bad as well as the good.
Earlier I said I think you're unbalancing perfectly balanced divine essence.
Now I think you're inserting desire where it does not belong and thereby creating the illogical conclusion:
- Where does it say or who has said that Jesus did not desire people to LGW so He taught in parables?
- There is also a subtle nuance of this that can be discussed.
- Because He is Righteous and Just and is dealing with bad, with sin, it His will/desire to display His wrath (Rom9:22), meaning His will is in conformance to the outworking of His attributes. Paul is dealing with this in the same context of His hardening of Pharaoh and of the Potter and the Clay.
- Jesus can will that all LGW while at the same time submitting to what He sees the Father doing and thereby to the Father's will to do what provides greater understanding to those who have not closed their eyes and simultaneously what does not provide understanding to those who have closed their eyes.