Preterism, Futurism, Historicism 3 Schools of Interpretation

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TMS

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Yes - and, if you will compare enough scripture - in all of its 'detail' - you should see that there is no way possible that the 1000-year reign of Christ is anything other than a literal physical reign on the earth over an actual 1000-year span of time.
If you study history you'll find this theory started with futurism.
History shows the way it was invented and spread in Europe and taken to America like a disease.

Jesus is ruler of all. There is no verse that states that He will reign from Earth for the millenium.

He will come to Earth for 2 reasons...
To claim the saved and to destroy the lost.
Jesus didn't come to condemn but to save.
But when Jesus comes as king of kings the judgement has finished.
Rod of iron = to hold the ruling power and to be as hard as iron.

Think about the parable that Jesus told.
Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
His mercy had run out and the King was wroth.

Rev 19:13-21
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The next chapter talks about the saved reigning with Christ for the 1000 years and the rest of the dead not living until the 1000 years are over.
Nothing about the reigning on earth or that time being on Earth.

How do you explain that Jesus is preparing mansions in heaven for us.

What about the glorious kingdom explained in Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

The one on Earth will be horrible to live in when compared to the heavenly.
 

GaryA

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Let me ask you what you think is being described here?

1] stars of heaven fall to the earth??

2] the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together

3] every mountain and island were moved out of there place

Gary, do you think these events are going to happen literally? If you do, when do you see that happening?
If stars [plural] fall to the earth, would we be burnt up?
Clarify this for me! If this literally happens in Rev.6.....how would all the other events take place?
Yes - I believe all three to be literal occurrences.

I see them happening in the span of time from Trumpet 1 to Vial 7.

Please see: http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

No, we would not be burnt up. The true nature of the stars is not what you have been taught by modern science. They are not like the Sun. And, they are not huge and far away - they are much smaller and much closer. Based on something written in scripture, it is suggested by some that they may actually be angels.
 

GaryA

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If you study history you'll find this theory started with futurism.
History is certainly important to help confirm some things written in scripture. However, some things written in scripture do not need history to validate it. The Bible alone defines/describes a 1000-year reign of Christ on the Earth. It also shows us that we will be living eternity on earth with Christ and not in [the third] heaven. That is what the New Heaven and New Earth and New Jerusalem are - our eternal home.

The next chapter talks about the saved reigning with Christ for the 1000 years and the rest of the dead not living until the 1000 years are over.
Nothing about the reigning on earth or that time being on Earth.
Chapter 20 is replete with 'evidence' that it will be on Earth.
 
Yes - I believe all three to be literal occurrences.

I see them happening in the span of time from Trumpet 1 to Vial 7.

Please see: http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

No, we would not be burnt up. The true nature of the stars is not what you have been taught by modern science. They are not like the Sun. And, they are not huge and far away - they are much smaller and much closer. Based on something written in scripture, it is suggested by some that they may actually be angels.
Hello Gary,
Okay ,thanks for your response and clarifying what you believe at the present time. Thanks for sharing your link to your site.
Now why I do not agree. I do believe stars are literal.I do believe many of the stars are much larger than our sun,

This language however is symbolic of some literal events. It has already been used several times in the OT. It had to do with Judgements upon nations, and them being replaced as governments in Power.
In Matthew 24, Jerusalem is being judged as the great harlot that she was. In the OT. similar language was used here;

Isa.13...The destruction of Babylon.......
5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.


Gary,,,do you notice the language of the birth pains of a woman in travail ? Every premill book makes a big deal when Matthew says it, they say the judgement will come one after another.
It is called the day of the lord, hundreds of years before Jesus was incarnate.
Next, stars of heaven, and the constellations cannot be something else, or angels. There are no "constellations " of angels mentioned in scripture anywhere. The sun, moon, and stars are describing everyday life as the people know it. That was going to change.Life was not going to be just the same, big changes were happening, not the end of the world events, but the end of Babylon being in control.
Instead Babylon was historically destroyed as being in power.


Next...Isa.34..The destruction of idumea/Edom;

34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.


Gary, this literally happened to Idumea. Did the heavens roll up like a scroll??? Was it the end of the world, or the end of Edoms control ???

next..Judgement upon Egypt. Ezk32;
2 Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say unto him, Thou art like a young lion of the nations, and thou art as a whale in the seas: and thou camest forth with thy rivers, and troubledst the waters with thy feet, and fouledst their rivers.

3 Thus saith the Lord God; I will therefore spread out my net over thee with a company of many people; and they shall bring thee up in my net.

4 Then will I leave thee upon the land, I will cast thee forth upon the open field, and will cause all the fowls of the heaven to remain upon thee, and I will fill the beasts of the whole earth with thee.

5 And I will lay thy flesh upon the mountains, and fill the valleys with thy height.

6 I will also water with thy blood the land wherein thou swimmest, even to the mountains; and the rivers shall be full of thee.

7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.


8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.


9 I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known.


sun ,moon, and stars, again...do you see it?

next...Jerusalem in Joel 2 quoted at the day of Pentecost;

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.


31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.



Then Peter says; Acts 2:16
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Same language, same result...Jerusalem displaced. temple destoyed.
Notice...Acts 2:16, does not say...
This is like what Joel said.
It does not say this a double fulfillment that somehow is going to happen 2000 years in the future

What he says is...THIS IS THAT that was Spoken by Joel.






 

GWH

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Remember the 4th school of eschatology (Paulinism :^)
Again, remember that there is a fourth school of eschatology that might be called Paulinism, which is found mainly in two passages:

1CR 15:50-57 says that the trumpet will sound and immediately the dead will be raised with immortal bodies, and

1THS 4:14-5:3 says that Jesus will return from heaven with those who were saved and meet in the air those saints who are alive as they are raptured and immortalized. This event will occur unexpectedly, "like a thief in the night" (cf. MT 24:36-44).

Some of the events in RV apparently do not jibe with Paul's teaching, but they need to be harmonized in order to be held very definitely.
 

Adstar

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So, are you saying that sin will not be punished?


Nope i nebver said that.. If i did quote where i said it..


Only not keeping feasts will be punished?


Nope i never said that.. I quoted scripture that shows that punishment will be carried out upon people who disobey the LORD's requiorments during the 1000 years..


What about daily sin?
The scriptures do not deal with that, But as always atonement of sin is by believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured..


What atonement is made for daily sin? What propitiation is there?
The Atonement of the LORD Jesus.... Why are you even bringing this daily sin thing up? What has this got to do with the 1000 year kingdom of the LORD Jesus..
 
Nope i nebver said that.. If i did quote where i said it..




Nope i never said that.. I quoted scripture that shows that punishment will be carried out upon people who disobey the LORD's requiorments during the 1000 years..




The scriptures do not deal with that, But as always atonement of sin is by believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured..




The Atonement of the LORD Jesus.... Why are you even bringing this daily sin thing up? What has this got to do with the 1000 year kingdom of the LORD Jesus..
I am trying to get you to explain how the rod of iron rule takes place. I find it to be unreal.
Does Jesus appear on the nightly news?
Do unsaved people full of sin, casually approach the glorified Christ?
Do sinners somehow stop sinning?
 

GaryA

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What he says is...THIS IS THAT that was Spoken by Joel.
Yep - and, the prophecy as a whole covers a long span of time and not a short one.

Take a look at this chart:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Second_Coming.html

Each and every verse/passage in the list is referring to the same singular 'event' - the Second Coming of Christ, the Wrath of God, etc.

All of the sun, moon, and stars "language" is not just "being poetic" - it is actually talking about the Second Coming of Christ, the Wrath of God, etc. - in each and every case.
 

Adstar

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I am trying to get you to explain how the rod of iron rule takes place. I find it to be unreal.
Why?

Does Jesus appear on the nightly news?
I believe that the end times disasters will bring an end to the advanced technology we currently live with.. It's happened before.. The end of civilizations have often been acompanied by a loss of technology..The description of the army that will come against Jesus and the saint's at the end of the 1000 years is a description of an pre modern tech army..

Do unsaved people full of sin, casually approach the glorified Christ?
Did people approach Jesus when they where still sinners in the days of the first coming of Jesus? Yes...


Do sinners somehow stop sinning?
The Saints who take part in the first rasurection will no longer sin.. But the rest of the people will be as before.. Only after the final judgement sat the end of the 1000 years will sin totally cease..
 

TMS

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What makes you think that the cross of Christ is not sufficient for folks living in the Millennium???
Study the process. Study the Earthly sanctuary and how atonement was made for sin. This was a shadow of the heavenly

Christ was the lamb that died on the cross and Christ could not enter the holy place without blood.

Heb 5:10-11
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. 11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

The Day of atonement was when the sanctuary was cleansed of all sin. Once Jesus leaves the most Holy place there is no more atonement for sin. All cases are decided.
Probation is closed when Jesus stops ministering in the sanctuary and comes as king of kings.

Rev 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Notice that the rewards are with Christ when He come. They are decided

Jos 24:15 choose you this day whom ye will serve; ...
We are not told we will have a second chance.... second chance doctrines are from Satan so people feel safe putting off what needs to be done today.

The parable about the 10 virgins shows that when Jesus come you are saved or lost no second chance.

When Jesus stops ministering as our priest, we do not have any blood to cleanse us of sin.
 

TMS

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History is certainly important to help confirm some things written in scripture. However, some things written in scripture do not need history to validate it. The Bible alone defines/describes a 1000-year reign of Christ on the Earth. It also shows us that we will be living eternity on earth with Christ and not in [the third] heaven. That is what the New Heaven and New Earth and New Jerusalem are - our eternal home.


Chapter 20 is replete with 'evidence' that it will be on Earth.
Please show the verses that Jesus is with the saints for 1000 years on Earth

The saved are with Jesus for this time.

I can see the heavenly Jerusalem coming down at the end of the 1000 years and the Earth recreated and inhabited at the end of the 1000 years.

The tree of life is in the heavenly Jerusalem and the saved will be eating of it , for the 1000 years. Sin will not be part of God's kingdom.
 

TMS

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When Jesus comes He will gather the saved and the lost will be destroyed.

Mat 24:35-39
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away,
Earth will pass away..
Like the flood all were killed except those saved in Christ

but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Took them all, ALL, away.

No wicked survivers.

2Pe 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The Earth will be burned up.. all the elements will melt...

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

When Jesus comes the Earth will be destroyed.
 

GWH

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Again, remember that there is a fourth school of eschatology that might be called Paulinism, which is found mainly in two passages:

1CR 15:50-57 says that the trumpet will sound and immediately the dead will be raised with immortal bodies, and

1THS 4:14-5:3 says that Jesus will return from heaven with those who were saved and meet in the air those saints who are alive as they are raptured and immortalized. This event will occur unexpectedly, "like a thief in the night" (cf. MT 24:36-44).

Some of the events in RV apparently do not jibe with Paul's teaching, but they need to be harmonized in order to be held very definitely.
I guess Amillennialism is Paulinist?
 

TMS

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I guess Amillennialism is Paulinist?
Paulinist ? Does that mean you only follow Paul's writings or hold the writings of Paul higher?

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

All scripture and every word is my foundation.
 

GaryA

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When Jesus stops ministering as our priest, we do not have any blood to cleanse us of sin.
Jesus will never stop ministering - His blood "one time" is good-and-sufficient for "all time"...
 

GaryA

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Please show the verses that Jesus is with the saints for 1000 years on Earth

The saved are with Jesus for this time.

I can see the heavenly Jerusalem coming down at the end of the 1000 years and the Earth recreated and inhabited at the end of the 1000 years.

The tree of life is in the heavenly Jerusalem and the saved will be eating of it , for the 1000 years. Sin will not be part of God's kingdom.
What is the last thing I said in the post you quoted?

I will try to address this further later.
 

GaryA

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Please show the verses that Jesus is with the saints for 1000 years on Earth
Revelation 20:

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

An angel comes down from heaven - to where?

Where is the bottomless pit located?

Where are the nations that the Devil deceived and will deceive again? (There is a major clue in verse 8 and verse 9. Look for the word 'earth'.)

If not on earth - what is there to reign over?

If not on earth - what is happening on earth for 1000 years?

Did the nations "remove" from the earth to somewhere else at the start of the 1000 years and then "return" to the earth at the end of the 1000 years?

Fire comes down from heaven - to where?