Understanding God’s election

[Cameron143]

No I have not, but you seem not to have the gift of semantics that understands implication or that (logically) if a person is without excuse for NOT having faith, that means/implies that they could/should have such faith--that faith SHOULD HAVE resulted from considering creation.

Were you ever a Boy Scout, or have you never gone camping and felt closer to God surrounded by nature hiking in the mountains away from the hustle and bustle?

I generally have that kind of experience looking up into a clear night sky or at the beach.

What you fail to understand is that the reason a consideration of nature doesn't lead one into a pursuit of God is because man has been corrupted by sin. Almost immediately upon sinning, Adam and Eve hid from God. Nature, in the form of leaves, wasn't used as a means to consider God, but cover themselves. Far from creation being a road towards God, it was becoming a means to self. You see this continue with Cain who used nature to worship God in the manner he chose. And the fallen natural man to this day employs creation for his own ends and not in the pursuit of God.
All this doesn't mean as he can't consider the design in nature and beauty and come to the conclusion that some type of "higher" being must exist and that, if this the case, he has a responsibility to "whoever" created him. In fact God said this is indeed the case. But coming to this conclusion does nothing to alter the corruption in man caused by sin. Thus, man knows enough to be held accountable before God, but remains in his current estate that has him moving away from God, and not towards him. And that's exactly what Paul says happens in Romans 1.

You might also notice that no mention of faith is found in Romans 1. What Paul is keen to do in Romans 1 is show why he is not ashamed of the gospel...it is the power of God unto salvation. No mention of nature or conscience being the power of God unto salvation.

 

[GWH]

I generally have that kind of experience looking up into a clear night sky or at the beach.

What you fail to understand is that the reason a consideration of nature doesn't lead one into a pursuit of God is because man has been corrupted by sin. Almost immediately upon sinning, Adam and Eve hid from God. Nature, in the form of leaves, wasn't used as a means to consider God, but cover themselves. Far from creation being a road towards God, it was becoming a means to self. You see this continue with Cain who used nature to worship God in the manner he chose. And the fallen natural man to this day employs creation for his own ends and not in the pursuit of God.
All this doesn't mean as he can't consider the design in nature and beauty and come to the conclusion that some type of "higher" being must exist and that, if this the case, he has a responsibility to "whoever" created him. In fact God said this is indeed the case. But coming to this conclusion does nothing to alter the corruption in man caused by sin. Thus, man knows enough to be held accountable before God, but remains in his current estate that has him moving away from God, and not towards him. And that's exactly what Paul says happens in Romans 1.

You might also notice that no mention of faith is found in Romans 1. What Paul is keen to do in Romans 1 is show why he is not ashamed of the gospel...it is the power of God unto salvation. No mention of nature or conscience being the power of God unto salvation.

Well, may I suggest that when you meet folks who were inspired by nature to seek the supernatural Creator that you NOT tell them they can't do that because THEIR nature is fallen.

 

[Cameron143]

Well, may I suggest that when you meet folks who were inspired by nature to seek the supernatural Creator that you NOT tell them they can't do that because THEIR nature is fallen.

I will simply tell them as I have told you...it was God who drew you. And nature isn't the power of God unto salvation...faith is.

 

[Inquisitor]

Does the Holy Spirit also remove the hate the unregenerate naturally have for God and His Christ and replace it with love for Him?

Of course, God replaces the deeds of the flesh with the inflow of the Holy Spirit.

Then we respond as shown below.

In Romans 13:14, he provides similar advice: "Clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh." Here, Paul stresses that living a Spirit-led life involves putting on Christ—adopting His character and love.

It's a two way street.

 

[GWH]

I will simply tell them as I have told you...it was God who drew you. And nature isn't the power of God unto salvation...faith is.

You like fighting straw men, and you can disagree with what Paul said in RM 1:20 if you dare, but I don't advise it.

Where does GW say that faith is the power of God unto salvation?

 

[Cameron143]

Well, you can disagree with what Paul said in RM 1:20 if you dare, but I don't advise it.

I'm not the one perverting the meaning of the verse. It is you who are. According to you, creation is the power of the gospel, one is saved by grace through nature, and faith comes by nature, and nature by conscience.

 

[GWH]

I'm not the one perverting the meaning of the verse. It is you who are. According to you, creation is the power of the gospel, one is saved by grace through nature, and faith comes by nature, and nature by conscience.

According to Paul creation reveals God's power. The rest is your straw man perversion of what I don't say.

 

[Cameron143]

According to Paul creation reveals God's power. The rest is your straw man perversion of what I don't say.

Sure it does. And the heavens declare His glory. But we were talking about the power of God unto salvation. Does Paul say creation is the power of God unto salvation?

 

[Rufus]

Yesterday, we looked at 2Cor 3 which talks about how the minds of the OC people of God were made "dull", consequently a "veil" remained over the hearts of the Jews 'till Paul's day, and that that veil is only removed in Christ. This "veil" metaphor Paul carries over to the next chapter when speaking of the Gospel under the New Covenant. And it's this passage that we'll now look at briefly.

2 Cor 4:1-5
4:1 Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they CANNOT see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
NIV

If there's any passage in scripture that teaches that the Gentiles are no different whatsoever from the Jews (in spite of some FWs' attempt to insinuate or infer the opposite), it would be this passage. The veil that blinded the OC Jews in the previous chapter also blinds all unbelieving peoples in this NC dispensation. But in this text that's before us, Paul reveals the source of the blindness behind the veil. That source, of course, is Satan. And apparently, Satan is very good at what he does because that blindness he causes is irreversible by any mere mortal! As we're going to see, Paul is not going to exhort the Church or his original audience that they can overcome their blindness or heal their blindness through self-effort. He's not going to tell us that all we have to do is exercise the "mighty power" of our God-given "freewill" in order to heal ourselves. Instead, he told the Corinthians and

2 Cor 4:6
6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," MADE HIS light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
NIV

I have consistently maintained in this thread, and in others on this forum as well, that God's work of salvation in the soul of sinners is nothing less than a supernatural work. No sinner participates in, or helps with, or cooperates or facilitates that work of God. God's remedy for man's blindness (darkness) is to graciously give his chosen ones HIS light; for only HIS light can "give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ". Paul here very clearly likens the light that shines in believers' hearts as being the light that shined "out of darkness" during the the first day of creation. In Gen 1:4 we are told that the light was "good" and that God separated the light from the darkness. And this makes sense, for how could darkness which represents evil ever be compatible with light which represents everything that is good? God Himself is light, and in Him there is no darkness (1Jn 1:5)! The light that God shined into the universe on the first day was the light of his own majestic and incomparable glory. And this is what God does for all unbelievers who are his elect! He separates THEM from their own darkness (Eph 5:8) by flooding the darkness of their hearts, minds and souls with the light of the knowledge of his own glory. This saving knowledge is the precursor to saving faith! For the Christian Faith is neither blind or irrational. Every believer's faith has always found its ground in a true knowledge of God, which itself is the very essence of eternal life. This kind of spiritual knowledge is the catalyst for faith.

And where in scripture do we see anyone curing themselves of blindness!? We all came into this world as blind as the man Jesus healed in John 9. Did the blind man in that chapter help Jesus cure him by some act of his "freewill"? But those of us who were once cursed by this blindness had to also overcome an additional obstacle other than the evil one. The apostle John teaches us:

John 3:19-21
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men LOVED darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil HATES the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
NIV

It's no wonder at all that Paul told Timothy that the grace of the Lord was poured out upon him abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ (1Tim 1:4). So, in addition to unbelievers being blinded by the Prince of Darkness, their hostile minds and hearts hate Christ, hate the light and love the darkness. Yet, FWs tell us that the power of man's "freewill" can overcome these obstacles AND MORE to faith and repentance!

 

[Rufus]

Sounds like you need to get right with God yourself bro. Or (according to you) whatever kind of god you believe in. I guess you could go out and talk to your fence post for awhile, or whatever works for you lol

Seriously? You're totally oblivious to the fact that everyone has "faith" in something or someone? Even atheists and agnostics sport their own versions of faith. Everyone on this planet has an object of faith. You can take this maxim to the bank!

 

[Rufus]

Well, may I suggest that when you meet folks who were inspired by nature to seek the supernatural Creator that you NOT tell them they can't do that because THEIR nature is fallen.

Being "inspired" by nature to seek after God is one thing, but the Gospel that actually reveals God's redemptive plan to mankind is quite another. It's God's Holy Word that is LIVING and ACTIVE and sharper than any two-edged sword, so much so that it even penetrates to the dividing of soul and spirit, joints and marrow and thoughts and intentions (Heb 4:12)! Natural Revelation does not and cannot do these things! What Natural Revelation can do is act as a stepping stone to Special Revelation wherein the Gospel is revealed.

 

[Rufus]

You like fighting straw men, and you can disagree with what Paul said in RM 1:20 if you dare, but I don't advise it.

Where does GW say that faith is the power of God unto salvation?

Where in God's Word does it say that nature is the power of of God unto salvation? Or where in scripture is it written it's impossible to please God when one rejects what natural revelation reveals to man? Yet, I can show you where it is written that without faith it's IMPOSSIBLE to please God. I can also show you in scripture that whatever man does that is not of [biblical] faith is sin!

 

[Rufus]

Of course, God replaces the deeds of the flesh with the inflow of the Holy Spirit.

Then we respond as shown below.

In Romans 13:14, he provides similar advice: "Clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh." Here, Paul stresses that living a Spirit-led life involves putting on Christ—adopting His character and love.

It's a two way street.

But in FWT, that does not and cannot happen until man first chooses to believe the gospel. IOW, it happens AFTER the FACT of Faith!

 

[GWH]

Sure it does. And the heavens declare His glory. But we were talking about the power of God unto salvation. Does Paul say creation is the power of God unto salvation?

Paul implies that creation reveals the power of God and so there is no excuse for not cooperating with His POS.

Not sure whether you have an excuse for not understanding logical implication.

You seem confused, saying both "I generally have that kind of experience looking up into a clear night sky or at the beach", and

"a consideration of nature doesn't lead one into a pursuit of God".

Well, it does logically.

 

[GWH]

Being "inspired" by nature to seek after God is one thing, but the Gospel that actually reveals God's redemptive plan to mankind is quite another. It's God's Holy Word that is LIVING and ACTIVE and sharper than any two-edged sword, so much so that it even penetrates to the dividing of soul and spirit, joints and marrow and thoughts and intentions (Heb 4:12)! Natural Revelation does not and cannot do these things! What Natural Revelation can do is act as a stepping stone to Special Revelation wherein the Gospel is revealed.

Yes, exactly like the OT law can do --also per Paul.

Yay! :^)

 

[Inquisitor]

But in FWT, that does not and cannot happen until man first chooses to believe the gospel. IOW, it happens AFTER the FACT of Faith!

Well the question remains.

Does the gospel itself contain the power to pierce the darkness, and allow us to choose?

Or does God force the belief upon the totally depraved from the dawn of time?

 

[Inquisitor]

Being "inspired" by nature to seek after God is one thing, but the Gospel that actually reveals God's redemptive plan to mankind is quite another. It's God's Holy Word that is LIVING and ACTIVE and sharper than any two-edged sword, so much so that it even penetrates to the dividing of soul and spirit, joints and marrow and thoughts and intentions (Heb 4:12)! Natural Revelation does not and cannot do these things! What Natural Revelation can do is act as a stepping stone to Special Revelation wherein the Gospel is revealed.

The phrase, "God's Holy Word", could refer to Jesus or say the Holy Spirit.

The WORD is usually Jesus Christ.

 

[Inquisitor]

But in FWT, that does not and cannot happen until man first chooses to believe the gospel. IOW, it happens AFTER the FACT of Faith!

I agree with that.

Then one must sow to the spirit and not to the flesh.