Understanding God’s election
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I would not go so far as to say decreed, but certainly God knew for a fact it would happen, and Jesus was already purposed
for that very reason, as Adam being of the natural world was subject to its temptations, to which he inevitably succumbed.
Do please excuse me if I am not able to respond in a timely manner,
as I have been quite ill since visiting the hospital on Friday for a test.
for that very reason, as Adam being of the natural world was subject to its temptations, to which he inevitably succumbed.
Do please excuse me if I am not able to respond in a timely manner,
as I have been quite ill since visiting the hospital on Friday for a test.
Yes, it's interesting that some fail to realize that the Lord laid the responsibility upon our shoulders to call upon His name, to seek Him for what ONLY He can save us. He wants to be sought by those who love Him. The Hyper-Calvinistic bent upon the idea that God chooses who will be saved and who He would create for the purpose of populating Hell...that's just so messed up.
True love only arises from the freedom He gives to us to willingly and freely love Him. The claim that we cannot love Him except that be given to us...no. That has no scriptural basis.
MM
True love only arises from the freedom He gives to us to willingly and freely love Him. The claim that we cannot love Him except that be given to us...no. That has no scriptural basis.
MM
First, sorry I'm late to the party, Rufus, apparently, even though I'm set to "watch" for this thread, I'm not always notified when
posts occur so I have to remember to actually check it myself otherwise I miss them.
Anyway, jumping forward a few posts past your first question, I noticed your comment (above) that Adam sinned. Not to start a firestorm but I see that question in a very different light than most do. The reason being that while I believe that Adam did sin, his failure (but not his sin), was to eat the fruit of the tree which actually manifested law - law unto death - and all mankind became subject to law and guilty because all mankind was in his loins, by which, sin could/would then be assessed upon everyone - for without the law sin was dead (Rom 7:8)- and by which was Adam's (and also our) desire to self-justify was assessed as sin - but until then, all mankind, to include Adam, Eve, and everyone in Adam's loins, were not under law and therefore sinless. That is why I believe the tree was named "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", because only the law provides a demarcation line to distinguish good from evil. I believe the desire to self-justify before God, was in man's heart from even before the fall but without law it couldn't/wouldn't be assessed as sin because there was no law to assess it, nor any need to assess it. So, without trying to split hairs, Adam's sin of spiritual self-justification could be assessed as a sin only after he ate from the tree, not before or during. The law he manifested is named the law of sin and death. Therefore, Jesus's offering and sacrifice as the second Adam, had to remove His elect from the law which Adam's failure made manifest (and to also to forgive the prior commissions of it). In order to do so, His successful offering manifested the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, instead placing them under its jurisdiction (by salvation). Those not covered under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus - those not of His saved during their lifetimes - remain under the jurisdiction of the law of sin and death and will be judged accordingly.
I think Paul in Rom 7, explains much of this.
I haven't thought about this for a while so may have missed or misstated some of its aspects, but hoping it isn't complete gobbledygook.
I know many will vehemently disagree with this, so I'll try to answer questions/disagreements if I can, to the best of my ability should there be any interest in it.
To your original question, I would say no, Christ could not sin because sin eternal exists in our hearts from inception through Adam and is demonstrated by our inherent, natural desire to self-justify before God for salvation, apart from trusting in Christ and His offering alone through God's grace. Christ obviously would not be subject to committing that sin as the whole purpose/reason for Him to be sent by the Father was to work the works -not to avoid works - to bring forth the salvation which man could never achieve, but which He achieved perfectly - being exactly the opposite of man's sin.
John 5:39-40
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
The idea, then, that one cannot come to Christ apart from His enablement makes Him a deceiver, for He did not say in verse 40, "And ye cannot not come to me, except that the Father give it to you, that ye might have life."
The mental gymnastics one has to perform in order to force unstated content into scripture what is clearly not there is an amazing departure from recognizing the integrity of scripture for what it actually says. This is not a singular verse, for there are many throughout where mankind is called upon to willingly seek out the Lord for salvation that only the Lord can give.
I never have been able to figure out how God sovereignly giving to mankind freedom of choice somehow violates His sovereignty. Mankind has a measure of sovereignty that God does not have, and that being the ability to go against one's nature. God cannot go against His own nature, but man...
MM
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
The idea, then, that one cannot come to Christ apart from His enablement makes Him a deceiver, for He did not say in verse 40, "And ye cannot not come to me, except that the Father give it to you, that ye might have life."
The mental gymnastics one has to perform in order to force unstated content into scripture what is clearly not there is an amazing departure from recognizing the integrity of scripture for what it actually says. This is not a singular verse, for there are many throughout where mankind is called upon to willingly seek out the Lord for salvation that only the Lord can give.
I never have been able to figure out how God sovereignly giving to mankind freedom of choice somehow violates His sovereignty. Mankind has a measure of sovereignty that God does not have, and that being the ability to go against one's nature. God cannot go against His own nature, but man...
MM
Not everyone has been taught by the Father. Only those who have, come to Jesus.
[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus replied. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me— so we are back to who hears. Some say everyone hears, but that gives us universalism, since all who hear are saved. I contend that hearing must encompass comprehension, and to the natural man, the gospel is foolishness, because the natural man is described as darkness itself, and darkness does not comprehend the Light, nor can the natural man submit, being inherently hostile in his mind toward God and having a stony heart incapable of producing the good fruit of faith which comes from a circumcised heart. Many times the phrase of having ears to hear alongside eyes to see is used, and many other verses say these are given by God... that one's heart and mind are opened by Him so that understanding can happen....
John 10:27-28 My sheep hear My voice, I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27-28 My sheep hear My voice, I know them and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.
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You understand that, "total", and ,"absolute", are synonyms.
They mean the same thing, total equals absolute.
You also do not adhere to the dictionary definition of "Depraved".
Cambridge Dictionary.
Depraved
morally bad or evil: a depraved character/mind. Someone who can kill a child like that must be totally depraved.
Total depravity or absolute depravity means that a person is absolutely evil.
Mankind is a slave to Satan, an enemy of God, mankind's attempt at righteousness are filthy rags.
Totally depraved means absolutely evil in all his ways.
You can back peddle all you want but the plain reading of Calvin, is Total Depravity in all ways.
They mean the same thing, total equals absolute.
You also do not adhere to the dictionary definition of "Depraved".
Cambridge Dictionary.
Depraved
morally bad or evil: a depraved character/mind. Someone who can kill a child like that must be totally depraved.
Total depravity or absolute depravity means that a person is absolutely evil.
Mankind is a slave to Satan, an enemy of God, mankind's attempt at righteousness are filthy rags.
Totally depraved means absolutely evil in all his ways.
You can back peddle all you want but the plain reading of Calvin, is Total Depravity in all ways.
Hebrews 6:4-6
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away.
This verse is specifies that those who were enlightened and received the Holy Spirit.
Then have fallen away.
When a person who once boasted in Christ and no longer boasts in Christ, has fallen away, period.
How do you know that you are saved?
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away.
This verse is specifies that those who were enlightened and received the Holy Spirit.
Then have fallen away.
When a person who once boasted in Christ and no longer boasts in Christ, has fallen away, period.
How do you know that you are saved?
Ecclesiastes 3:18-20 “As for the sons of men, God tests them so that they may see for themselves that
they are but beasts.” For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the
other— they all have the same breath. Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything
is futile. All go to one place; all come from dust, and all return to dust.
they are but beasts.” For the fates of both men and beasts are the same: As one dies, so dies the
other— they all have the same breath. Man has no advantage over the animals, since everything
is futile. All go to one place; all come from dust, and all return to dust.
No, it most definitely does not have to mean what you say above. "Total" Depravity can mean what you say if you understand "total" in the qualitative sense. But "total" can also be understood in the quantitative sense, e.g. all four of man's faculties that reside in man's heart are depraved. IOW, the entire or total or whole heart is depraved or infected with sin. There is no part of the human heart that is not affected by sin, corruption or evil.
Furthermore, the bible teaches that God directly and indirectly restrains evil in the world. This fact alone refutes your understanding of "total". I wrote a post not too long ago on this matter which justifies why the Reformers had it right when they understood "total" in the quantitative sense. If you want I can look up that post and give you the particulars on where to find it, etc.
Furthermore, the bible teaches that God directly and indirectly restrains evil in the world. This fact alone refutes your understanding of "total". I wrote a post not too long ago on this matter which justifies why the Reformers had it right when they understood "total" in the quantitative sense. If you want I can look up that post and give you the particulars on where to find it, etc.
Isaiah 6:9-10, Luke 8:10, (Matthew 13:14-15, Mark 4:12, Romans 11:8, John 12:39-40, Acts 28:26-27, Ezekiel 12:2,Jeremiah 5:21, Deuteronomy 29:4, Psalm 115:4-8, Psalm 135:15-18) ~ The voice of the Lord said: “Go and tell this people, ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’
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Mark 2:10 (Luke 5:24, Matthew 9:6) Mark 2:17 (Luke 5:32, Matthew 9:13) Acts 3:19-20 The Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
WHO ARE THE RIGHTEOUS? THERE ARE NONE! NO, NOT ONE.
Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Matthew 28:18
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Context, context, context...
The context of Jesus' statement about none coming to Him apart from being drawn by the Father was in relation to those who would be His disciples, not the general populace of unbelievers coming to Him in faith.
John 6:44-57, 59-71
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. {Not forced, not coerced, not led by God, but they COME unto Him when speaking of the world of believers in general.}
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. [No mention of forced belief.]
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. [MAY eat, not FORCED to eat.]
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. [Conditional, based upon the individual's own will.]
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. ...
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? [WILL they want to go away? Not any indication of them being forced by God to stay.]
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. [No mention of that knowledge having been given the assurance to them by God that Christ has the words of eternal life. They recognized that on their own.]
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
Two groups are addressed in this context...the general populace of unbelievers willingly placing their faith in Christ, and those who would be His disciples and remain so can only be those who were drawn to Him by the Father. This context DRIPS COPIOUS amounts of revelation for free will of each unbelieving individual has before them in this life. There is nothing in this even hinting at irresistible faith and grace, such as the TULIP doctrine.
But, some will continue with the group-think they have adopted for themselves for various reasons no matter what scripture states IN CONTEXT. To them I say...go for it. We all will answer as to what we have chosen to believe in this life and what we taught to others, for all who teach will be judged doubly for daring to practice teaching doctrine to others.
MM
The context of Jesus' statement about none coming to Him apart from being drawn by the Father was in relation to those who would be His disciples, not the general populace of unbelievers coming to Him in faith.
John 6:44-57, 59-71
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. {Not forced, not coerced, not led by God, but they COME unto Him when speaking of the world of believers in general.}
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. [No mention of forced belief.]
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. [MAY eat, not FORCED to eat.]
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. [Conditional, based upon the individual's own will.]
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. ...
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? [WILL they want to go away? Not any indication of them being forced by God to stay.]
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. [No mention of that knowledge having been given the assurance to them by God that Christ has the words of eternal life. They recognized that on their own.]
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
Two groups are addressed in this context...the general populace of unbelievers willingly placing their faith in Christ, and those who would be His disciples and remain so can only be those who were drawn to Him by the Father. This context DRIPS COPIOUS amounts of revelation for free will of each unbelieving individual has before them in this life. There is nothing in this even hinting at irresistible faith and grace, such as the TULIP doctrine.
But, some will continue with the group-think they have adopted for themselves for various reasons no matter what scripture states IN CONTEXT. To them I say...go for it. We all will answer as to what we have chosen to believe in this life and what we taught to others, for all who teach will be judged doubly for daring to practice teaching doctrine to others.
MM
Lotta stuff about being forced... or not forced. Where in the world does that come from?
We are drawn with loving kindness.
And no mention of the natural man, being a slave to sin, lover of darkness, captive to the will of the devil,
none being righteous, blinded by the god of this world, the gospel being foolishness, like anyone is just
gonna up and accept the what they see as foolishness to be God's own truth without the intervention of
God Himself... gosh it goes on and on what gets ignored. Jesus came to open our eyes and ears and set us free.
Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.
We are drawn with loving kindness.
And no mention of the natural man, being a slave to sin, lover of darkness, captive to the will of the devil,
none being righteous, blinded by the god of this world, the gospel being foolishness, like anyone is just
gonna up and accept the what they see as foolishness to be God's own truth without the intervention of
God Himself... gosh it goes on and on what gets ignored. Jesus came to open our eyes and ears and set us free.
Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is on Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.
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