Understanding God’s election

[PaulThomson]

But those who are drawn by GOD are given to Christ. It's those who are NOT drawn by God but are attracted to Christ, nonetheless, for various carnal reasons (such as all those false disciples in John 6) who will fall away, for they were never given to the Son. I see the drawing of God as his enabling power which is efficacious (Jn 6:65).

Where does scripture say that all those drawn by God become believers? wher does scripture say that there is anyone who has not been at any time drawn by God toward Christ? Where does scripture say that God's drawing must be efficacious? Where does scripture say that God's purpose in drawing is to make sure the person being drawn believes in Christ?

 

[rogerg]

Where does scripture say that all those drawn by God become believers?

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[1Jo 5:1 KJV]
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[PaulThomson]

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

[1Jo 5:1 KJV]
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Those texts do not say what you are claiming they say.
All those who become believers are taught of God, does not mean that all those who are taught of God become believers. You are mixing scripture with logical fallacies to get to your prejudiced conclusion.

 

[rogerg]

Those texts do not say what you are claiming they say.
All those who become believers are taught of God, does not mean that all those who are taught of God become believers. You are mixing scripture with logical fallacies to get to your prejudiced conclusion.

Yes, it does, because to believe in Christ, they first must be born of God, and no one can truly believe but that they are first taught by God. Being taught is the prerequisite to believing.

Read v 45 again. Being taught by God and believing are inextricably linked.

 

[rogerg]

Those texts do not say what you are claiming they say.
All those who become believers are taught of God, does not mean that all those who are taught of God become believers. You are mixing scripture with logical fallacies to get to your prejudiced conclusion.

To state it more clearly, v45 says "cometh unto me" - no exceptions - those taught by the Father must come to Jesus i.e. believe.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[Magenta]

To state it more clearly, v45 says "cometh unto me" - no exceptions - those taught by the Father must come to Jesus i.e. believe.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

It also comes back to hearing, and who hears? Some say all do, but that is obviously wrong.

 

[PaulThomson]

Yes, it does, because to believe in Christ, they first must be born of God, and no one can truly believe but that they are first taught by God. Being taught is the prerequisite to believing.

Read v 45 again. Being taught by God and believing are inextricably linked.

Scripture does not say that to believe in Christ one must first be born of God, so that plank added to bolster your previous logically flawed claim is something you have invented. It is true that being taught is a prerequisite of believing. How can they believe unless they hear? But it is not true that being taught inevitably leads to believing. Jesus, who is God, spent much time teaching Pharisses and scribes who refused to believe what He taught. So, clearly, being taught does not inexorably lead to learning and believing what was taught.

 

[PaulThomson]

To state it more clearly, v45 says "cometh unto me" - no exceptions - those taught by the Father must come to Jesus i.e. believe.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

No... v 45 says all those who have heard AND HAVE LEARNED from the Father, come to Jesus. Not all who hear from the Father are willing to learn from Him.

And v. 45 does not at all logically imply that all those that come to Jesus have learned from the Father. Many came to Jesus to argue with Him against what He was teaching and refused to learn from Him.

 

[Musicmaster]

Scripture plainly states that all are drawn. Do you agree? Do you believe this all being drawn equates to all coming? That would be universalism. I do not believe that is what you believe. So being drawn is not the, shall we say, deciding factor. However, John 6:37 plainly says that those given by God to Jesus will come. So there is a deciding factor. Those given to Jesus by God WILL come. All souls already belong to God. So that is not the issue either.

Absolutely, you are correct. All are drawn, but not all come. My thesis is a rebuttal against Calvinism's TULIP teaching, which is utterly false given that the Father draws ALL men to Christ, but we also know that not all men respond, and that they refuse that drawing on the basis of the free will we have been given.

MM

 

[rogerg]

No... v 45 says all those who have heard AND HAVE LEARNED from the Father, come to Jesus. Not all who hear from the Father are willing to learn from Him.

And v. 45 does not at all logically imply that all those that come to Jesus have learned from the Father. Many came to Jesus to argue with Him against what He was teaching and refused to learn from Him.

[Jhn 6:45 KJV] 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

The coming to Jesus is intended in the spiritual sense, not in the physical sense. It does not mean they first come to Jesus in the physical sense, hear the Father yet reject Him; instead, they hear spiritually and learn, and by that, they come to Jesus - they may not even realize it initially but gradually come to an awareness within the human conscious mind over time - nevertheless, it must occur. Those who never learn were not sent to Jesus by the Father; those He sends, as v45 states, MUST come to a belief, so willingness and/or or choice is not germane, and neither did I nor those verses propose willingness as a prerequisite. All that matters is that they were directly chosen by the Father, taught (from being chosen) by Him, and thereby given by Him to Jesus. Those given are unwilling, ambivalent, and even hostile to begin with until they learn, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant, is that the Father had chosen them to draw them; He does not do so for everyone. In order to learn and to be taught by the Father, one first hears the Father, and as @Magenta posted, the hearing is spiritual hearing, but to hear spiritually, one must first be made born-again spiritually by the Holy Spirit, and that is the significance of 1Jo 5:1 - that those who truly hear and truly believe can only do so because they first were made born-again.
The "every man therefore", connects the "taught of God" with the "learned of the Father" and they, without exception, must come to Jesus, the others, cannot. IOW, those, and only those, who come to Jesus, do so solely because they were chosen, taught, learned of the Father, thereby coming to Jesus, believing in Him. As can be inferred from those verses, those who do so, played no part whatsoever in the process but only as its recipients/beneficiaries- it is all by God, nothing by man.

[Jhn 8:47 KJV] 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

[1Jo 5:1 KJV] 1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

[rogerg]

Absolutely, you are correct. All are drawn, but not all come. My thesis is a rebuttal against Calvinism's TULIP teaching, which is utterly false given that the Father draws ALL men to Christ, but we also know that not all men respond, and that they refuse that drawing on the basis of the free will we have been given.

MM

No. The "all" of those who will be drawn, is defined by v44. The Father draws only those whom He intends Christ to raise unto salvation on the last day. Their refusal has nothing to do with it. If chosen, they will/must come to a belief in Christ because the
Father has commanded that it be so.

[Jhn 6:44 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Musicmaster]

There are quite a number of posts with no quote as to whom they were speaking...in case some of those were addressing my posts. If they want s response, then let others know whom is being addressed, otherwise it's just space noise. Either that, or those ones being addressed are on my ignore list because of habitual ad hominem garbage tendencies that some have.

MM

 

[rogerg]

It also comes back to hearing, and who hears? Some say all do, but that is obviously wrong.

Magenta, I referenced you in my prior post regarding hearing that is spiritual. In reading your post above, I may have misunderstood your intent in that regard. If I did misunderstand and incorrectly referenced you, I apologize, it was not my intention to do so you or
to incorrectly attribute to you something that you do not believe.

 

[BillyBob]

One of the biggest objections FWs bring to the Doctrines of Grace is that if God elects people and effectually enables them to repent of their sins and believe the Gospel, then God would be forcing his will upon "free" moral agents, making robots out of us, would make God into a tyrannical monster, yada, yada, yada.

It seems to me that God's election should be viewed as loving kindness which is poured out on those people which have been chosen to spend eternity with him. He is not forcing us, but restoring the ability to turn to Him. None of us deserve this blessing because all have sinned and fall short in our love and obedience toward Him, our creator.
Why He chose some and not others is a question that can only be answered by God himself, because none deserve this blessing. But, the Bible is clear that all who are chosen have a Redeemer, Christ His only son who willingly took our sins upon himself (paid the price for our sins).
Why anyone would complain and say that this is not fair? Is this not so simply because we are all fallen men and unable to see clearly?
In Matthew 20:11 we read

And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’ 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”

God is merciful but He is also just and His ways are beyond our complete understanding!

 

[Magenta]

Magenta, I referenced you in my prior post regarding hearing that is spiritual. In reading your post above, I may have misunderstood your intent in that regard. If I did misunderstand and incorrectly referenced you, I apologize, it was not my intention to do so you or
to incorrectly attribute to you something that you do not believe.

Oh, no, that is fine, and you made a good point, one which some of our free willers no doubt detest, and I have actually seen much grumbling against spiritual revelation to individuals, in a way that exposes the fact that the grumblers have not experienced it. I do make mention of the hearing to mean both ways, though my emphasis is often on the fact that the natural man hears nonsense when the gospel is preached, being inherently hostile in his mind toward God and not inclined at all to embrace the Truth carried within it, being captive to the will of the devil, whereas to the spiritual man who has been saved, made alive in Christ, and whose heart is circumcised, the gospel is comprehended and believed and acted upon in faith. Spiritual revelation is one of the ways we are drawn.