Theory About What God Is And Is Not Going To Prove

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Kafziel

Kafziel

Active member
#1
Dec 28, 2018
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#1
So I've been thinking about this for a while. One line got my attention regarding this.
John 3:15 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

Now this has some implications here, if a believer gets eternal life simply for believing, then God will not very often prove anything to anyone who wouldn't have believed in him, over the course of their life anyway. Essentially, as a general rule, the non-believer observer at any point is a no go, because then it would lead them to become eternal. Even for the believer he's not going to leave proof around, but your internal world, your thoughts and feelings, God can provide all the internal evidence you need.
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#2
Sep 2, 2020
15,164
6,117
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#2
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:28-29‬ ‭

If we believe and then we hear what he said , does our need to accept it and believe what he’s saying come into play ?

in other words if i say “yes I believe Jesus died and rose and I confess him as Christ and lord ! “

what do I do with what he said about eternal life ? And doesn’t everything I learn change my beliefs ? Or rather grow my beliefs ?

Another way of asking is . If I hear and accept this verse

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

should I consider this verse true as well and add to the understanding of the other ?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24

now if I accept both scriptures promising eternal life there’s a condition of hearing his word that promises eternal life. And if I accept this , then of course its going to lead a believer to look into his words because we believe hearing his doctrine is where life is received

What I mean to say regarding belief is as we hear more of the gospel our belief is challenged and excercised and grows as we receive things that we dont already think , or believe but learn from the lord Jesus in the gospel because we believe in him . As we learn more our capacity to believe more comes along
 
Brasspen

Brasspen

Active member
#3
Sep 14, 2024
373
159
43
#3
God gave us proof of himself, When Jesus died and rose again.
 
J

jacko

Well-known member
#4
Sep 2, 2024
1,330
775
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#4
I feel really torn. I just read that a little girl 12, died from a lack of medication (insulin) as the parents withheld treatment due to their "radical faith". I have no doubt that they truly believed that God would heal her. But, He didn't and she died.

Do we need to balance our "radical faith" vs pragmatic living? Assuming their faith in the living God Jesus Christ was sincere, why did the holy spirit not move and or intervene and dissuade this action?
 
J

jacko

Well-known member
#5
Sep 2, 2024
1,330
775
113
#5
Particularly in the Pentacostal/Charasmatic circles, you hear a lot of leaning into this radical faith and healing, etc. and I did bring up this subject about this subject at Church with my pastor. He said be careful, must balance this "passion" and check it with "humility".
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#6
Jun 30, 2015
26,115
14,095
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#6
jacko said:
I feel really torn. I just read that a little girl 12, died from a lack of medication (insulin) as the parents withheld treatment due to their "radical faith". I have no doubt that they truly believed that God would heal her. But, He didn't and she died.

Do we need to balance our "radical faith" vs pragmatic living? Assuming their faith in the living God Jesus Christ was sincere, why did the holy spirit not intervene and dissuade this action?
Click to expand...
Where is the little girl now? With Jesus in the eternal kingdom, unless she herself had rejected Him.

There is no need to pit faith against pragmatics. Many people "have faith" in things that Jesus didn't say (that's one of the key errors of the 'word of faith' movement). We are to put our faith in things that He did say. If He told the parents that He would heal their daughter without medication, and He didn't, that's on Him. However, I strongly suspect that they believed, in the absence of specific revelation, that He would heal her, and they put that "faith" into action by withholding approved medical treatment.

It's preventable tragedy, sadly.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#7
Jun 30, 2015
26,115
14,095
113
#7
Kafziel said:
So I've been thinking about this for a while. One line got my attention regarding this.
John 3:15 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

Now this has some implications here, if a believer gets eternal life simply for believing, then God will not very often prove anything to anyone who wouldn't have believed in him, over the course of their life anyway. Essentially, as a general rule, the non-believer observer at any point is a no go, because then it would lead them to become eternal. Even for the believer he's not going to leave proof around, but your internal world, your thoughts and feelings, God can provide all the internal evidence you need.
Click to expand...
Romans 1 tells us that God has provided plenty of evidence in the natural world of Himself and His character. Some people love their sin and will refuse to seek God, while many simply need to be told of the gift of life available to them. God doesn't stop people from seeing Him in creation; they stop looking and shut themselves off from Him.
 
J

jacko

Well-known member
#8
Sep 2, 2024
1,330
775
113
#8
Dino246 said:
Where is the little girl now? With Jesus in the eternal kingdom, unless she herself had rejected Him.

There is no need to pit faith against pragmatics. Many people "have faith" in things that Jesus didn't say (that's one of the key errors of the 'word of faith' movement). We are to put our faith in things that He did say. If He told the parents that He would heal their daughter without medication, and He didn't, that's on Him. However, I strongly suspect that they believed, in the absence of specific revelation, that He would heal her, and they put that "faith" into action by withholding approved medical treatment.

It's preventable tragedy, sadly.
Click to expand...
The believers have now all been charged with manslaughter all 14 of them. Maybe they were deceived by Satan in this course of action? is that even possible?
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#10
Apr 18, 2013
9,813
2,866
113
#10
jacko said:
I feel really torn. I just read that a little girl 12, died from a lack of medication (insulin) as the parents withheld treatment due to their "radical faith". I have no doubt that they truly believed that God would heal her. But, He didn't and she died.

Do we need to balance our "radical faith" vs pragmatic living? Assuming their faith in the living God Jesus Christ was sincere, why did the holy spirit not move and or intervene and dissuade this action?
Click to expand...

Medicine, Food & Thankfulness:

When you need food for your body: do you pray for God to fill you and then wait to be miraculously filled?
No.
You thank God that you have money for food, and then eat some food.

Well medicine for the body is no different than food for the body.
You should thank God you have money for medicine, and then take your medicine.

Why is medicine for the body any different than food for the body?
Both are NECESSARY to stay ALIVE.
They are basically the same.
Why would we expect a miracle in place of medicine, but we don't expect a miracle in place of food?
Both are equally necessary to stay alive.

We needn't make things so hard.
Jesus said, in Matthew 11:30,
"my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

.
 
J

jacko

Well-known member
#11
Sep 2, 2024
1,330
775
113
#11
maxwel said:
Medicine, Food & Thankfulness:

When you need food for your body: do you pray for God to fill you and then wait to be miraculously filled?
No.
You thank God that you have money for food, and then eat some food.

Well medicine for the body is no different than food for the body.
You should thank God you have money for medicine, and then take your medicine.

Why is medicine for the body any different than food for the body?
Both are NECESSARY to stay ALIVE.
They are basically the same.
Why would we expect a miracle in place of medicine, but we don't expect a miracle in place of food?
Both are equally necessary to stay alive.

We needn't make things so hard.
Jesus said, in Matthew 11:30,
"my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

.
Click to expand...
maxwel said:
Medicine, Food & Thankfulness:

When you need food for your body: do you pray for God to fill you and then wait to be miraculously filled?
No.
You thank God that you have money for food, and then eat some food.

Well medicine for the body is no different than food for the body.
You should thank God you have money for medicine, and then take your medicine.

Why is medicine for the body any different than food for the body?
Both are NECESSARY to stay ALIVE.
They are basically the same.
Why would we expect a miracle in place of medicine, but we don't expect a miracle in place of food?
Both are equally necessary to stay alive.

We needn't make things so hard.
Jesus said, in Matthew 11:30,
"my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

.
Click to expand...
Thank you, this is a good verse.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#12
Jul 31, 2013
38,453
13,786
113
#12
Kafziel said:
So I've been thinking about this for a while. One line got my attention regarding this.
John 3:15 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

Now this has some implications here, if a believer gets eternal life simply for believing, then God will not very often prove anything to anyone who wouldn't have believed in him, over the course of their life anyway. Essentially, as a general rule, the non-believer observer at any point is a no go, because then it would lead them to become eternal. Even for the believer he's not going to leave proof around, but your internal world, your thoughts and feelings, God can provide all the internal evidence you need.
Click to expand...
faith is the substance of things not seen ;)

what is this 'proof' you speak of?
there is a theorem of higher mathematics, which states, for any sufficiently complex logical system, there are necessarily basis in the system which cannot be proven. this means in simpler terms, every system of belief or understanding of the world must necessarily be axiomatic.
to state further simply: all knowledge requires faith.

that is the nature of the universe He omnisciently, purposefully created and set us in! do the math! :coffee::unsure:
 
maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#13
Apr 18, 2013
9,813
2,866
113
#13
posthuman said:
faith is the substance of things not seen ;)

what is this 'proof' you speak of?
there is a theorem of higher mathematics, which states, for any sufficiently complex logical system, there are necessarily basis in the system which cannot be proven. this means in simpler terms, every system of belief or understanding of the world must necessarily be axiomatic.
to state further simply: all knowledge requires faith.

that is the nature of the universe He omnisciently, purposefully created and set us in! do the math! :coffee::unsure:
Click to expand...
In philosophy that would be called a foundational belief, or according to Plantinga, a "properly basic belief."
And there is sufficient inherent justification to ground these foundational beliefs... meaning they're rational, and we're reasonable to believe them.

Faith is never something which is blind.
Faith is the act of trusting in that which you have good reason to believe.

.
 
Kafziel

Kafziel

Active member
#14
Dec 28, 2018
116
37
28
#14
Brasspen said:
God gave us proof of himself, When Jesus died and rose again.
Click to expand...
Yes but I have seen him do things for people. One lady he dulled her pain but she realized she was still sick. This is him working in the internal world.
 
Brasspen

Brasspen

Active member
#15
Sep 14, 2024
373
159
43
#15
Kafziel, Me too, I have both had healings and seen things. It has given me much deliverance from many demons.
 
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