Testing gift of prophecy on christianchat.
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Book of Matthew.
"But that you know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,"
{9:1} And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and
came into his own city. {9:2} And, behold, they brought to
him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus
seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of
good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. {9:3} And, behold,
certain of the scribes said within themselves, This [man]
blasphemeth. {9:4} And Jesus knowing their thoughts said,
Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? {9:5} For whether
is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say,
Arise, and walk? {9:6} But that ye may know that the Son
of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to
the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto
thine house. {9:7} And he arose, and departed to his house.
{9:8} But when the multitudes saw [it,] they marvelled, and
glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
"But that you know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins,"
{9:1} And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and
came into his own city. {9:2} And, behold, they brought to
him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus
seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of
good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. {9:3} And, behold,
certain of the scribes said within themselves, This [man]
blasphemeth. {9:4} And Jesus knowing their thoughts said,
Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? {9:5} For whether
is easier, to say, [Thy] sins be forgiven thee; or to say,
Arise, and walk? {9:6} But that ye may know that the Son
of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to
the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto
thine house. {9:7} And he arose, and departed to his house.
{9:8} But when the multitudes saw [it,] they marvelled, and
glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
I am not one of those under that misconception. In fact the 1Cor.14 passage you call evangelistic is actually the forth telling part of prophecy. It is where god's will is revealed and in this case, a light in the darkness as the man's heart is revealed.
I think though you are missing the point. My argument isn't what prophecy is used for or how it was applied in the early Church, the point is the three examples you give, can all be ascertained with the application of scripture only now. The very fact you are quoting scripture to show me how they were used is an indication that there is nothing new under the sun (so to speak).
These three examples you give are good. We have two letters to Timothy for discerning Church leadership. We have virtually all the NT for edifying the Church and I already touched on the evangelisitc role but it also needs to be said the person who falls on his face still needs to hear the Gospel for it alone is the power of God unto salvation, not the gift of prophecy.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Yes, they are all relevant which, is why we have the completed canon of scripture so we can see how these things came to us and why.
The Lord's word to John (Revelation) took us from the early Church, the seven letters defining God's will for the Church and the mistakes they were making (or not making) through to the end of the age and even a glimpse into the eternal state. What more could you possibly want the Lord to say?
If I am scared of anything it is this. If I thought those gifts still operated? Why bother studying the scriptures. It can be hard work to present yourself every day, comparing scripture with scripture, listening to a pastor who has to cater for every level of understanding. Sometimes sermons can be "boring" because you have heard and applied the lesson a thousand times, it's second nature to you but for many it might be the first time they hear the lesson. But you know the Lord is good and there will always be that little gem in there so you learn to discipline yourself (if you don't the Lord will and that is bound to hurt) and you concentrate.
I'm a practical person and I see the dangers in the attitude of expecting others to do your work for you. (that's "you" generally, not personally). It requires discipline and energy to come to the knowledge of the Lord Peter speaks of (below passage) and he is using the word gnosis here which is pure data input, not to be confused with epignosis which is the data input turned into faith through the power of the word by means of the Spirit's working.
2 Peter 3:18
but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
Too many people want shortcuts to knowing God's will for their lives. If one knows no prophecy can be uttered or word of knowledge given that is not already in the scriptures, then why isn't one learning scripture instead of chasing gifts?
I think though you are missing the point. My argument isn't what prophecy is used for or how it was applied in the early Church, the point is the three examples you give, can all be ascertained with the application of scripture only now. The very fact you are quoting scripture to show me how they were used is an indication that there is nothing new under the sun (so to speak).
These three examples you give are good. We have two letters to Timothy for discerning Church leadership. We have virtually all the NT for edifying the Church and I already touched on the evangelisitc role but it also needs to be said the person who falls on his face still needs to hear the Gospel for it alone is the power of God unto salvation, not the gift of prophecy.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Yes, they are all relevant which, is why we have the completed canon of scripture so we can see how these things came to us and why.
The Lord's word to John (Revelation) took us from the early Church, the seven letters defining God's will for the Church and the mistakes they were making (or not making) through to the end of the age and even a glimpse into the eternal state. What more could you possibly want the Lord to say?
But the gift does make the job 1,000 X cooler, funner, and easier! 
I'm a practical person and I see the dangers in the attitude of expecting others to do your work for you. (that's "you" generally, not personally). It requires discipline and energy to come to the knowledge of the Lord Peter speaks of (below passage) and he is using the word gnosis here which is pure data input, not to be confused with epignosis which is the data input turned into faith through the power of the word by means of the Spirit's working.
2 Peter 3:18
but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
Too many people want shortcuts to knowing God's will for their lives. If one knows no prophecy can be uttered or word of knowledge given that is not already in the scriptures, then why isn't one learning scripture instead of chasing gifts?
I really hope you are kidding. How many scriptures would you like regarding learning to grow up and be a man like Christ?
The early Church was like a child being given the necessary tools to just that. The apostles and Prophets formed the foundation upon which the Church is built. The gifts like knowledge and prophecy supplied the "ingredients" to get us started. We don't want to be like the early Church trying to learn what this new way of living is all about. We ought by now, to have mature pastors ready and able to teach, not only the elemental doctrines, but the meat of the scriptures with a far greater competency than ever before.
The early Church was like a child being given the necessary tools to just that. The apostles and Prophets formed the foundation upon which the Church is built. The gifts like knowledge and prophecy supplied the "ingredients" to get us started. We don't want to be like the early Church trying to learn what this new way of living is all about. We ought by now, to have mature pastors ready and able to teach, not only the elemental doctrines, but the meat of the scriptures with a far greater competency than ever before.
You make far too many assumptions about my walk with the Lord but the one thing I don't do is determine who the Lord is by my experience. My experience is determined by the word of God.
I think we are done here. You think the written word is of less, or at best, on par with your experience in terms of authority. That is the recipe for trouble.
Have a nice day.
I think we are done here. You think the written word is of less, or at best, on par with your experience in terms of authority. That is the recipe for trouble.
Have a nice day.
I have listened to you and I have no opinion of you. I don't know you from Adam. I have judged your words only. You keep making your experience to be something of note. I will not be moved by your experience because I don't know you. On the other hand, the Word I know and that alone will be my guide.
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You make far too many assumptions about my walk with the Lord but the one thing I don't do is determine who the Lord is by my experience. My experience is determined by the word of God.
I think we are done here. You think the written word is of less, or at best, on par with your experience in terms of authority. That is the recipe for trouble.
Have a nice day.
I think we are done here. You think the written word is of less, or at best, on par with your experience in terms of authority. That is the recipe for trouble.
Have a nice day.
God in times of trouble; God in times of uncertainty; God in times of need; amen <3
Moving the goalposts? Realised change is absolutely necessary afterall?
2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Moving the goalposts? Realised change is absolutely necessary afterall?
2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
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Alrighty, I guess I see where you are coming from now.... if I thought using the gifts would make me lazy in studying scripture then perhaps I would be leery of them as well. However, my experience has been the exact opposite. The more I see Him operate, the more I want to know Him. The more I know Him, the more I love Him. The more I love Him, the more I want to serve Him.
I mostly "know" Him from reading the Bible, but I also very much appreciated the times He has bothered to give me a more personal interaction. Those times are like precious gems to me.
Really, I only bothered posting here because you are trying to discourage Blain and others. Sure, prophecy needs to be treated with caution, but if they are not speaking heresies then what is it to you? I take solace in the fact that those who have experienced God's ongoing personal interaction in their lives are not easily discouraged by those who haven't.
I mostly "know" Him from reading the Bible, but I also very much appreciated the times He has bothered to give me a more personal interaction. Those times are like precious gems to me.
Really, I only bothered posting here because you are trying to discourage Blain and others. Sure, prophecy needs to be treated with caution, but if they are not speaking heresies then what is it to you? I take solace in the fact that those who have experienced God's ongoing personal interaction in their lives are not easily discouraged by those who haven't.
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So? You stated nothing should change from the inception of the Church, you were shown to be misinformed. We most definitely should be changing both individually and corporately. We have to grow up! Faith, hope and love, these three abide. These three things don't change. You want to be like the Church originally where you have to be told it's wrong to sleep with your mother? (1Cor.5:1)
No, I don't think you do see where I am coming from. I am not scared of the gifts, I not leery of the gifts. I operate in my own gift constantly, even in this thread. I've had more experiences of a "supernatural or mystic" nature, more rescues from death, more dreams and visions, more demonic attacks than I can poke a stick at. But the point of it all is, the written word analyzes my experiences, not the other way round.
If you want to believe that God still appoints apostles and prophets when the scriptures state those two offices laid a foundation for the Church? Go ahead. If you want to think it is ok to spout whatever pops into your head because it has some semblance to scripture? Fine. I'm not here to tell you what to believe, God gave us His word for that.
There is not a believer alive who the Lord has not taken an ongoing personal interaction with, we are to walk by means of grace, through faith, in the power of the Spirit. The Christian walk is strict and narrow and cannot be done apart from God's continuous interaction with us but when we start determining what the word means using our experience as the guide, we run the risk of serious error. It's how cults get started. It's why the Lord also appointed evangelists and pastor/teachers. We are not some law unto ourselves when it comes to learning to know Christ.
I'm not trying to discourage Blain and others. They don't answer to me. They're free to think as they will. I pointed out from scripture why I believe three of the gifts have ceased. You or others disagree? Give us scriptural evidence for disagreeing, not personal experience.
One doesn't learn to know Him from "reading" the Bible. You know Him from applying the Bible to your life. Be not hearers of the word only, but doers of the word. (Jm.1:22)
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a person, but its end is the way that leads to death.
grace and peace
If you want to believe that God still appoints apostles and prophets when the scriptures state those two offices laid a foundation for the Church? Go ahead. If you want to think it is ok to spout whatever pops into your head because it has some semblance to scripture? Fine. I'm not here to tell you what to believe, God gave us His word for that.
There is not a believer alive who the Lord has not taken an ongoing personal interaction with, we are to walk by means of grace, through faith, in the power of the Spirit. The Christian walk is strict and narrow and cannot be done apart from God's continuous interaction with us but when we start determining what the word means using our experience as the guide, we run the risk of serious error. It's how cults get started. It's why the Lord also appointed evangelists and pastor/teachers. We are not some law unto ourselves when it comes to learning to know Christ.
I'm not trying to discourage Blain and others. They don't answer to me. They're free to think as they will. I pointed out from scripture why I believe three of the gifts have ceased. You or others disagree? Give us scriptural evidence for disagreeing, not personal experience.
One doesn't learn to know Him from "reading" the Bible. You know Him from applying the Bible to your life. Be not hearers of the word only, but doers of the word. (Jm.1:22)
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a person, but its end is the way that leads to death.
grace and peace
You are as legalistic as I have ever seen before.
I mean WOW!!
The first established Church after the Resurrection of Christ was built upon everything the Apostles as Disciples were instructed, shown, taught, and installed to do including how they water Baptized both Jews and new Gentiles (Cornelius - chapter 10) by Jesus Christ Himself.
^
That's what I'm talking about and you are moving the goalposts to fit your RELIGION.
I mean WOW!!
The first established Church after the Resurrection of Christ was built upon everything the Apostles as Disciples were instructed, shown, taught, and installed to do including how they water Baptized both Jews and new Gentiles (Cornelius - chapter 10) by Jesus Christ Himself.
^
That's what I'm talking about and you are moving the goalposts to fit your RELIGION.
How do you work that out?
The virgins were responsible for the supply of oil. Half of them were called foolish because they were irresponsible and forgot to allow for any extra that might be needed. Similar with the talents in that the people had a responsibility in the operation. On the other hand, the gifts operate without ones own cognition, they simply work out naturally (or I should say supernaturally) from one who is abiding in Christ. We don't control where and when they work, they simply work when needed.
The virgins were responsible for the supply of oil. Half of them were called foolish because they were irresponsible and forgot to allow for any extra that might be needed. Similar with the talents in that the people had a responsibility in the operation. On the other hand, the gifts operate without ones own cognition, they simply work out naturally (or I should say supernaturally) from one who is abiding in Christ. We don't control where and when they work, they simply work when needed.