video disagreeing with the "Rapture"

[randyk]

On another forum, this video opposing the Pretrib Rapture was posted. I thought I would re-post it here for your consideration. I'm certainly not calling Pretribulationists or believers in the Pretrib Rapture "heretics." Even if this video is strongly opposed to Pretribism, I would not refer to my Pretrib brethren as evil, Satanic, cultic, or heretical. Pretribism is a very strong American eschatology, but one that should, like all other teachings, be scrutinized against the Scriptures.

All of these positions are Bible-based. But we still need to look at the prophetic schools for ourselves, since teachers can be wrong.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Yep, and probably thousands of other videos along with it. We have considered and re-
considered. And, we would rather:

Stay With God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided = God's Great GRACE Departure!

Amen.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Who is taken away? Those who don't remain

But as the days of Noah, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and [they] knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37-39​

​

And every living thing was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and only Noah remained, and they that [were] with him in the ark. Genesis 7:23​

 

[randyk]

Who is taken away? Those who don't remain

But as the days of Noah, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and [they] knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37-39​

​

And every living thing was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and only Noah remained, and they that [were] with him in the ark. Genesis 7:23​

Yes, this is one place where I may disagree with the video. The video indicates they believe the "taken" are taken away in judgment, whereas those "left" are left to inherit the earth.

I used to see it that way, but I see it differently now. The context appears to me to be about judgment upon Israel, with a particular emphasis on Jesus' generation. At that time the Romans were the "Abomination of Desolation" who came upon Jerusalem, and desolated it, leading to a long era of Jewish exile--the worst punishment in Israel's history.

And so, I see both the "taken" and the "left" as being judged, very similar to the words used in more ancient prophecies of Israel's judgment. God took away the Hebrews in the past in times of judgment, but normally left a few Hebrews to till the land until the land could be restored.

Therefore, both the "taken" and the "left" are being judged. They are overtaken by an enemy nation, and either exiled or left to serve as slaves in the land.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Yes, this is one place where I may disagree with the video. The video indicates they believe the "taken" are taken away in judgment, whereas those "left" are left to inherit the earth.

I used to see it that way, but I see it differently now. The context appears to me to be about judgment upon Israel, with a particular emphasis on Jesus' generation. At that time the Romans were the "Abomination of Desolation" who came upon Jerusalem, and desolated it, leading to a long era of Jewish exile--the worst punishment in Israel's history.

And so, I see both the "taken" and the "left" as being judged, very similar to the words used in more ancient prophecies of Israel's judgment. God took away the Hebrews in the past in times of judgment, but normally left a few Hebrews to till the land until the land could be restored.

Therefore, both the "taken" and the "left" are being judged. They are overtaken by an enemy nation, and either exiled or left to serve as slaves in the land.

There's a lot going on in Matthew 24 because Jesus is answering 3 questions asked by the disciples in response to him saying the temple would be destroyed. They had no prophetic depth perception to be able to know they all wouldn't happen at the same time.

1. When will these things be, ie temple destroyed?
2. What is the sign of your coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of the age?

#1 was obviously 70AD, #2 is his 2nd coming and #3 either refers to the end of the age of Judea, or the end of the age of the nations, ie, Christ's return. So there's a lot to sort out IMO

 

[randyk]

There's a lot going on in Matthew 24 because Jesus is answering 3 questions asked by the disciples in response to him saying the temple would be destroyed. They had no prophetic depth perception to be able to know they all wouldn't happen at the same time.

1. When will these things be, ie temple destroyed?
2. What is the sign of your coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of the age?

#1 was obviously 70AD, #2 is his 2nd coming and #3 either refers to the end of the age of Judea, or the end of the age of the nations, ie, Christ's return. So there's a lot to sort out IMO

Yes. However, I've been studying this for many years, and praying for help. I've gone through a lot of changes, but this is what I believe now...humbly.

The prophecy Jesus gave was given while still under the contract of Law with Israel. It was foretold that Israel would break this contract, and be taken away into captivity.

This happened before during the Babylonian Captivity, and what Jesus said here, in the Olivet Discourse, is more of the same. So it isn't that difficult to understand if viewed in this way.

So Jesus said that Israel would, once again, fall to their enemies. This was strange to Jesus' Disciples because they knew he was the Messiah. And it was prophesied that Messiah would politically deliver Israel for all time. They just didn't recognize that Messiah had to come twice, the 1st time to suffer, and the 2nd time to restore the nation.

So when they heard from Jesus that the temple would be completely destroyed they wanted to know when this would happen, and how it relates to the end of the age, when Israel would be restored? Jesus told them the destruction of Jerusalem would happen in their own generation. This is very similar to a prophecy in Ezekiel about the coming Babylonian judgment. Ezekiel was told to say that judgment would not take place in the far distance, time-wise, but would be visited almost imminently.

It was the same thing with this Roman judgment Jesus was foretelling. The Romans would come in that very generation, in the generation that would crucify him. And this would lead to an extended exile--the worst in Israel's history. I think you can admit that the NT Jewish Diaspora has been the worst punishment ever visited upon the Jewish People?

But Jesus implied that his Coming would take place at the end of this time of Jewish exile, to save them. His coming would be not just to judge his enemies, but even more, to save his Jewish People. Though this Address was given under the Law, we can learn from it in the NT period even as Gentile believers. We have the same trials to bear in our own countries.

 

[GaryA]

2 Thessalonians 1:

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

If Jesus returns in any other way than what is described in the verses above - it is not Jesus.

 

[GaryA]

Yes, this is one place where I may disagree with the video. The video indicates they believe the "taken" are taken away in judgment, whereas those "left" are left to inherit the earth.

I most-definitely disagree with the way that is presented in the video - and, have never seen it any other way - it is unmistakable in Matthew 24:37-41 that it is aligned with the return of Christ. Those who are 'taken' are those who are 'raptured'.

 

[GaryA]

There's a lot going on in Matthew 24 because Jesus is answering 3 questions asked by the disciples in response to him saying the temple would be destroyed. They had no prophetic depth perception to be able to know they all wouldn't happen at the same time.

1. When will these things be, ie temple destroyed?
2. What is the sign of your coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of the age?

#1 was obviously 70AD, #2 is his 2nd coming and #3 either refers to the end of the age of Judea, or the end of the age of the nations, ie, Christ's return. So there's a lot to sort out IMO

No - there are only two questions.

Matthew 24:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mark 13:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21:

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

1) when shall these things be?
2) what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

'when' and 'what sign'

The phrase 'of thy coming, and of the end of the world' cannot be [properly] "disassembled" and separated into two questions - grammatically, it is two parts of one-and-the-same question. And, it intrinsically ties together 'thy coming' with 'the end of the world' - as one 'event'.

 

[Chester]

On another forum, this video opposing the Pretrib Rapture was posted. I thought I would re-post it here for your consideration. I'm certainly not calling Pretribulationists or believers in the Pretrib Rapture "heretics." Even if this video is strongly opposed to Pretribism, I would not refer to my Pretrib brethren as evil, Satanic, cultic, or heretical. Pretribism is a very strong American eschatology, but one that should, like all other teachings, be scrutinized against the Scriptures.

All of these positions are Bible-based. But we still need to look at the prophetic schools for ourselves, since teachers can be wrong.

I watched most of this video: then looked a bit at the website and other videos where this comes from:

I found that this website promotes the Sabbath (rather than Sunday) and also the doctrine of soul sleep (that is - Christians do not immediately go to heaven when they die)

 

[GaryA]

Who is taken away? Those who don't remain

But as the days of Noah, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and [they] knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37-39​

​

And every living thing was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and only Noah remained, and they that [were] with him in the ark. Genesis 7:23​

Those who are taken will be with Jesus "in the air" while the Wrath of God is "poured out" upon the earth.

Those who are taken will be those who remain. Those who are not taken will suffer the Wrath of God.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I found that this website promotes the Sabbath (rather than Sunday) and also the doctrine of soul sleep (that is - Christians do not immediately go to heaven when they die)

I figured it was something like that.

 

[randyk]

I watched most of this video: then looked a bit at the website and other videos where this comes from:

I found that this website promotes the Sabbath (rather than Sunday) and also the doctrine of soul sleep (that is - Christians do not immediately go to heaven when they die)

Yes, and I'm not a Preterist either, but I do agree heartily with their belief that the Olivet Discourse centers on the generation of Christ. So the moral of the story is, don't discaard truth even if it comes from groups that you consider a little off on their focus. In fact, I think some of the more mainstream groups could learn a lot from sectarian groups that draw upon the errors that exist in the mainstream.

God doesn't have favorites. He gives truth out to whoever latches onto it. But rest assured that even though 7DA may sponsor this particular link (I don't know, and didn't care), the Pretrist Rapture position never existed as such before 1830 or thereabouts. Darby came up with it.

Though I disagree with Darby on the Pretrib Rapture I would nonetheless agree with his emphasis on Premillenninalism and on Israel's future Salvation. You see, we shouldn't defend all that any school teaches. We need to latch onto truth wherever we find it--even if it isn't in our own particular group.

I'm Postrib, but am a member of a Pretrib Church. I don't hold their Pretrib belief against them. But they sure seem to hold it against me! I may eventually leave, if the discrimination continues.

 

[randyk]

I most-definitely disagree with the way that is presented in the video - and, have never seen it any other way - it is unmistakable in Matthew 24:37-41 that it is aligned with the return of Christ. Those who are 'taken' are those who are 'raptured'.

It doesn't sound like you're open to correction, in case you're wrong? I've been wrong many times in my life!

Though the Olivet Discourse overall can be said to be related to Christ's Return, the main emphasis of the Discourse had been on the matter of Jerusalem's destruction by the Romans in 70 AD. The Romans "took away" many Jewish People into exile, and "left" a few Jews to maintain the fields for them, ie for the Romans. This had nothing whatsoever to do with the 2nd Coming, except that at the end of the Jewish Diaspora Christ will return to politically save the Jews and to initiate a new spiritual revival among them.

 

[GaryA]

It doesn't sound like you're open to correction, in case you're wrong? I've been wrong many times in my life!

So have I - and, I am certainly open to correction. However, I was specifically referring to the "taken"/"left" issue and making the point that I feel quite sure that I have always understood it correctly from scripture.

You used the word 'may'. I was saying that, in my case, there is no "maybe" - that I was/am certain.

In effect, I was agreeing with what you said (that I quoted in post #8, as I understood it) while stating that scripture is crystal-clear about it.

Are you open to correction?

Do yourself a favor - do not allow yourself to get lost in the stupidity of thinking that just because someone quotes something you said - that it automatically means that they disagree with you or that their intent is to oppose you in some way. This is the plague of internet social sites. But, it is simply not true. Quoting someone is simply making reference to something they said - nothing more or less - until-and-unless, in the context of their post, it becomes obvious that some such thing is evident. Never ever ever assume it.

Though the Olivet Discourse overall can be said to be related to Christ's Return, the main emphasis of the Discourse had been on the matter of Jerusalem's destruction by the Romans in 70 AD. The Romans "took away" many Jewish People into exile, and "left" a few Jews to maintain the fields for them, ie for the Romans. This had nothing whatsoever to do with the 2nd Coming, except that at the end of the Jewish Diaspora Christ will return to politically save the Jews and to initiate a new spiritual revival among them.

The Olivet Discourse overall is concerned with prophetic events in history from the time of the apostles/disciples of Christ until points-in-time in our future - a ~2000-year span of time. It is not [even] "just about" 70 A.D. and the Second Coming. It is about much more.

Please see: http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

 

[GaryA]

I watched most of this video: then looked a bit at the website and other videos where this comes from:

I found that this website promotes the Sabbath (rather than Sunday) and also the doctrine of soul sleep (that is - Christians do not immediately go to heaven when they die)

This is certainly worthwhile information to be made aware of - thanks for posting it. However, ...

I figured it was something like that.

Do not think that it means that there is no truth whatsoever in the video.

Yes, and I'm not a Preterist either, but I do agree heartily with their belief that the Olivet Discourse centers on the generation of Christ. So the moral of the story is, don't discaard truth even if it comes from groups that you consider a little off on their focus. In fact, I think some of the more mainstream groups could learn a lot from sectarian groups that draw upon the errors that exist in the mainstream.

There is merit in this statement.

I'm Postrib, but am a member of a Pretrib Church. I don't hold their Pretrib belief against them. But they sure seem to hold it against me! I may eventually leave, if the discrimination continues.

I believe I understand this quite well...

It is quite interesting - the incendiary/inflammatory reaction that 'pretrib' folks often have when their rapture belief is challenged.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Do not think that it means that there is no truth whatsoever in the video.

If memory serves you're a flat earther, are you not? If that's truth to you then anything is truth.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

No - there are only two questions.

Matthew 24:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Mark 13:

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

Luke 21:

7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

1) when shall these things be?
2) what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

'when' and 'what sign'

The phrase 'of thy coming, and of the end of the world' cannot be [properly] "disassembled" and separated into two questions - grammatically, it is two parts of one-and-the-same question. And, it intrinsically ties together 'thy coming' with 'the end of the world' - as one 'event'.

Of the three only Matthew was present to actually hear what Jesus said, so I will go with his personal recollection rather than what the 2 others received 2nd-, or nth-hand.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The coming of the son of man didn't happen in 70AD, so obviously Matthew 24:37 is referring to a future time.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Those who are taken will be with Jesus "in the air" while the Wrath of God is "poured out" upon the earth.

Those who are taken will be those who remain. Those who are not taken will suffer the Wrath of God.

You're making the assumption that "taken" means a change in position. Jesus meant taken in judgment when he referred back to Genesis 7:23,