Scripture in itself

[SomeDisciple]

"For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.” is an independent clause that is true within and without the context of Church discipline.

The "church discipline" statements are actually dependent on this independent clause- it's not the other way around.

The word "for" is a logic word that attaches this as the reason for why church discipline works. It works because Jesus is with the two or three who are gathering and asking in his name.

 

[wattie]

"For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.” is an independent clause that is true within and without the context of Church discipline.

The "church discipline" statements are actually dependent on this independent clause- it's not the other way around.

The word "for" is a logic word that attaches this as the reason for why church discipline works. It works because Jesus is with the two or three who are gathering and asking in his name.

Compare Matthew 18 with Deuteronomy 19:15.

Israel had their own form of discipline to maintain order when they were traveling through the wilderness.

The Matthew 18 passage mirrors this.

The other application of Matthew 18 is there also though..as the Holy Spirit being 'in the midst' of a NT church assembled together.

 

[wattie]

Many professing Christians regularly pull verses out of their actual contexts. In fact, I have been in several churches where it was commonplace for the pastor, associate pastors, elders, Sunday school teachers, etc., etc. to all do the same. I still recall literally trembling the first time that I read the Bible from cover to cover for myself. Why was I trembling? Because I saw that just about every thing that I was being taught in church was a total misapplication of scripture. What I was reading and what I was being taught in church were so far apart that I initially thought that I might be insane. In other words, there simply was no reconciling the two because they were worlds apart. Seeing how I was but a babe in Christ, my initial thought was that I must be the problem. However, after prayerfully reading the Bible from cover to cover several times, I came to the conclusion that I was not insane, and I chose to follow the teachings of scripture over the teachings of any man or church. That was the best decision that I ever made because I believe that I saved my soul in doing so.
Here is the verse in question.

Mat 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

For me, the key word here is "for" in verse 20 which means "because. Seeing how Jesus is in the midst wherever two or three are gathered together in his name, Christians have the authority to bind or loose certain things here on earth. In other words, I do not personally believe that Jesus was teaching that he is only in the midst when two or three gather together in his name for a specific purpose. Instead, I believe that he was saying that he is always in the midst when two or three gather together in his name, and this was the reason for their authority here on earth. Having said that, we need to strongly consider what it truly means to be gathered together "in his name."
A major part of this problem, from what I have personally observed, is that a lot of professing Christians turn to the Bible for confirmation of something they have predetermined to do. Such go "quote mining" for any scripture that they can use, regardless of its actual context, to somehow justify their own predetermined beliefs or actions. This is a very dangerous thing to do, and, quite frankly, I see certain people on this forum who regularly "quote mine" to somehow substantiate their own beliefs. In other words, they want the Bible to say something, so they skim through its pages to "wrest" some scriptures from it to allegedly support their erroneous beliefs.
I just gave some, but I will add this.

Any rational person, whether they profess to be a Christian or not, has to know that something is terribly wrong with "the church" because there are so many schisms in it. In other words, it is beyond obvious that everybody cannot be correct in their doctrine or beliefs because of the major contrasts which exist within professing Christendom. If everybody was truly humbling themselves before the Lord, with no agendas of their own, and if everybody was truly seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, then we would all be like-minded, and the mind that we would all share would be the mind of Christ. Sad to say, this is not even remotely a reality. The cure? Although we cannot cure others without their genuine cooperation, we can at least cure ourselves by humbly submitting ourselves to the word of God, and to the Spirit of God.

The thing here is we are both aiming to understand the verse 'in itself'

I could be wrong..you could... but we aren't just saying 'this is what the Spirit is telling me this is about' and contradicting the scripture itself.

 

[jacko]

Yeah. People have been using scripture as magical incantations maybe since the beginning. I see posts on social media, from my friends, like that all the time.

This is a problem for a lot. I tell you the truth brother. Reading a passage, at times I questions if I can claim this promise (mostly old testament or not). Or If I can claim some healing, etc. Or if I hear some radical Pentecostal or charismatic teacher with some bold faith claim...
I do believe it, that they believe it, but question if it is biblical.

 

[jacko]

This is true, of course there is personal application for passages.

The question is whether what we think we are applying to ourselves is actually the situation scripture is in itself showing.

what? I find it not at all easy to understand. How can something from God be understood by carnal man.
I find myself reading over passages in like 4 or 5 different translations with help with AI help and exegesis from the original Greek Lexicon many times. Maybe that's just me, but I want to really know I'm getting it.

 

[wattie]

what? I find it not at all easy to understand. How can something from God be understood by carnal man.
I find myself reading over passages in like 4 or 5 different translations with help with AI help and exegesis from the original Greek Lexicon many times. Maybe that's just me, but I want to really know I'm getting it.

Well, that's the way to do it.. letting scripture speak for itself before going to how it applies to yourself.

Of course..a believer to begin with has the Holy Spirit illuminating the scripture, where a non believer would have limited understanding.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Israel had their own form of discipline to maintain order when they were traveling through the wilderness.

The Matthew 18 passage mirrors this.

Specifically; Matthew 18 is the spiritual reality of which the Deuteronomic torah was a shadow and earthly type- the authorities reflecting God's will "on earth as it is in heaven." It also worked (and didn't work) for the same reason. God is with those bearing witness to the truth.

What people usually try to exploit by isolation is;
Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven.

As if two or three Christians could get together for any purpose and literally ask for anything for any reason and get it- this verse in particular is what needs to be understood within the context of assembly. You can't just get together with 2 of your friends and expect God to *poof* a million dollars onto your dining room table just because it would be a nice thing to have.

 

[GaryA]

Matthew 18:

19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Careful observation of the wording will reveal that the "beneficiary" of "what is done" ('they'/'them') is other than the two who are in agreement...

@wattie - who would you say that the 'they'/'them' are? Who is it referring to?

 

[wattie]

Matthew 18:

19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Careful observation of the wording will reveal that the "beneficiary" of "what is done" ('they'/'them') is other than the two who are in agreement...

@wattie - who would you say that the 'they'/'them' are? Who is it referring to?

Members of a NT church I would say. But will have another look

 

[Magenta]

Matthew 18:19-20 I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.

 

[Gideon300]

It's really common for believers to read a passage of scripture and go immediately to 'this is what it means for me'

Going to personal application before looking at the context of the passage itself.

An example of this, is when I was at a university christian club..and we would be worshipping in song, and someone would say 'where two or three are gathered, there I am with them!'.

We were supposed to applaud this..get excited etc..

But they were thinking their situation is the application for that verse, when actually, the passage itself is about local church discipline.

God blessing the process of dealing with a sinning brother in the local church. Jesus being in that process in a special way.

You could call it 'post-modern Christianity '...where a believer will interpret something from the Bible for personal application..and even though it doesn't fit their situation.. and it's still meant to be 'the Spirit speaking to them '

Thoughts?

I get irritated in a meeting when people ask Jesus to come or the Holy Spirit to fall. Lord Jesus is already there. The same Lord Jesus said that He would be with us to the end of the age. As far as I know, it's not over yet.

It helps to know the difference between "logos" and "rhema". Lord Jesus is the Logos and the Bible is the written, condensed version. No mere book could ever do justice to Lord Jesus. "Rhema" is the revelation of the Word. It means "unveiling". In those days, a sculptor would hide his work behind a curtain. It was probably to build a sense of anticipation. When the work was finished, the artist would raise the curtain for all to see his workmanship.

Some of us will testify that they read a passage of God's word many times, but one day that passage came alive to them. This is even applicable to salvation. I heard the gospel from Billy Graham, yet it was in one ear an out the other. When I heard it the next time, some years later, the word brought conviction, my eyes were opened and I knew that I was a sinner. That was "rhema".

It is dangerous to grab hold of a few Bible verses and make a doctrine out of them. It is equally foolish to engage only the intellect to study God's word. Spiritual things are spiritually understood. (1 Corinthians 2:12-14.)The Bible is a spiritual book for spiritual people.

A Greek Orthodox man (who was indeed Greek) I met put it like this: The "Logos" is like the armoury where all the weapons are stored. The "Rhema" is the individual weapon that is used when applicable to the situation.

One thing is certain. Never will our understanding contradict the Bible. That's one reason why I reject the prosperity gospel. It's not only taken out of context, it ignores all the warnings about the dangers of the pursuit of riches and of riches themselves. Healing? Sure, I've been healed by the power of God. Several people in the NT became ill. They include Trophimus, Epaphroditus, Timothy and even Paul. Many Corinthians became ill because of sin. Obviously they were not aware of the Word of Faith (sarcasm).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, your understanding is consistent with these teachings of Paul and Jesus:

TOP #243: Accusations against church leaders must be supported by at least two witnesses. [1TM 5:19]

This teaching is included in TOJ #100, both of which are based on DT 19:15.

moses

“One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭19:15‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting that person to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭17:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

a dreadful and deadly law for imperfect people we should be glad we aren’t beholden to but the same principle of two or three witnesses is there

Then Jesus but it’s not death

““If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:15-16‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Then Paul

“Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“This will be my third visit to you. “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.” I already gave you a warning when I was with you the second time. I now repeat it while absent: On my return I will not spare those who sinned earlier or any of the others, since you are demanding proof that Christ is speaking through me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful among you.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NIV‬‬

But also look how the principle of two or three together in his name with his spirit dwelling among them operating together expands and is shown also in many places. looking closer two or three witnesses is really a common theme everywhere you look

“For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:7-8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭11:3‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭10:1‬ ‭NIV‬

“Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭6:7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

If two appointed and sent by the lord are witnessing to someone and they accept the message then there are three in agreement again and as Paul says every matter is established by two or three witnesses . Even from times of old it’s been this way.

And considering also , even jesus had a second witness with him

“In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.””
‭‭John‬ ‭8:17-18‬ ‭NIV‬‬

proper church order

“Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭14:29‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Even long beforhand the principle

“Though one may be overpowered,-

two can defend themselves.

A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭4:12‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Two or three together is always stronger and more capable than one alone. Even in the kingdom of God he is with us but the power of faith is in brotherly love and teo or three individuals coming together in his name for his purposes. Having the gifts he’s given them they’ve come together in his name and his presence is surely with them . His command really is to love each other as family and have his name and blood and promises in common for one purpose and kingdom and glory to his name above names.

Even in tough to hear lessons like this , it’s touched upon the death in Moses law by the word of two or three and the hands of all

“If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-29‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[GWH]

Scripture in itself or as a whole consists of numerous scriptures or individual statements and teachings. I am endeavoring to list those of Jesus and Paul on the threads about their teachings. Interpreting GW correctly necessitates acknowledging that everyone lives by fallible faith/belief/opinion and sufficient knowledge of evidence rather than by absolute certainty, proof or coercion (2CR 5:7). IMHO, a logical train of thought leads an unbiased truthseeker to have a propensity to believe in an all-loving God, who is not tricky and does not hide the way to heaven (HB 11:6, ACTS 13:10). Also, humanity’s understanding of God evolved or progressed through the millennia, so that the OT was superseded by the NT, which is the apex of divine revelation (HB 7:18, 8:13, 9:15).

The method employed in this hermeneutic is taught by Paul (in 1THS 5:21), exemplified by Jesus (in MT 4:6-7) and illustrated by the transparent overlays of bodily systems found in some books on anatomy. An interpreter should want to include all true assertions in the picture of reality without making a “Procrustean Body” by cutting off or ignoring parts that do not seem to fit, because (7.) the correct understanding must be self-consistent or else God would be tricky. The whole truth combines parts without sawing!

The Bible says God’s Spirit is love and truth (1JN 4:8 & 5:6), which means all love (agape, RM 6:5-8) in all people is God’s operation, and all truth in all cultures is God’s revelation. Thus, becoming a Christian theist does not mean rejecting what is good and true in one’s pre-Christian experience or culture. When considering two different understandings (thesis A versus antithesis B), the truth may not be either one or the other but rather the proper harmonization of the two. (Both A and B = synthesis C.)

The Bible teaches (GN 1:3, JN 1:1-3) that both the world and inspired words are expressions of God’s Word/Logos, and thus scientific and spiritual truths must be compatible or else God would be tricky. So, while belief that God is love and Jesus is Lord is based upon the biblical revelation, knowledge also is gleaned from creation (the natural sciences) and common sense. While this interpretation of reality is influenced by the Bible, it also utilizes God-given logical thinking, especially where the Bible seems silent, hoping to be guided by the Spirit of Truth (JN 14:17).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Scripture in itself or as a whole consists of numerous scriptures or individual statements and teachings. I am endeavoring to list those of Jesus and Paul on the threads about their teachings. Interpreting GW correctly necessitates acknowledging that everyone lives by fallible faith/belief/opinion and sufficient knowledge of evidence rather than by absolute certainty, proof or coercion (2CR 5:7). IMHO, a logical train of thought leads an unbiased truthseeker to have a propensity to believe in an all-loving God, who is not tricky and does not hide the way to heaven (HB 11:6, ACTS 13:10). Also, humanity’s understanding of God evolved or progressed through the millennia, so that the OT was superseded by the NT, which is the apex of divine revelation (HB 7:18, 8:13, 9:15).

The method employed in this hermeneutic is taught by Paul (in 1THS 5:21), exemplified by Jesus (in MT 4:6-7) and illustrated by the transparent overlays of bodily systems found in some books on anatomy. An interpreter should want to include all true assertions in the picture of reality without making a “Procrustean Body” by cutting off or ignoring parts that do not seem to fit, because (7.) the correct understanding must be self-consistent or else God would be tricky. The whole truth combines parts without sawing!

The Bible says God’s Spirit is love and truth (1JN 4:8 & 5:6), which means all love (agape, RM 6:5-8) in all people is God’s operation, and all truth in all cultures is God’s revelation. Thus, becoming a Christian theist does not mean rejecting what is good and true in one’s pre-Christian experience or culture. When considering two different understandings (thesis A versus antithesis B), the truth may not be either one or the other but rather the proper harmonization of the two. (Both A and B = synthesis C.)

The Bible teaches (GN 1:3, JN 1:1-3) that both the world and inspired words are expressions of God’s Word/Logos, and thus scientific and spiritual truths must be compatible or else God would be tricky. So, while belief that God is love and Jesus is Lord is based upon the biblical revelation, knowledge also is gleaned from creation (the natural sciences) and common sense. While this interpretation of reality is influenced by the Bible, it also utilizes God-given logical thinking, especially where the Bible seems silent, hoping to be guided by the Spirit of Truth (JN 14:17).

A good read through but also the world is corrupt and we’re called out of it . So while the natural creation does exhibit remnants of Gods glory also we have to consider what man did to the world we were given

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so there’s like a corruption upon this remnant of Gods image and glory regarding the world. We want to come out of this worlds mindset and thinking completely

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

regarding the old law that isnt for us God removed that from Christians we dont need to. Just need to listen to what he said beforehand and after

 

[Edify]

What I find in this Op is some of those talking about the importance of context of scripture don't see it enough to use it, otherwise there would be a lot less arguing.

 

[wattie]

There are key questions to ask when studying a passage, before going to personal application.

Who is talking to whom?

What is the subject?

What is the occasion for speaking?

What is the time and place?

Once you know this..its easier to see where and how it applies. Letting scripture speak for itself.

Then the Holy Spirit will be in that process.

 

[GWH]

A good read through but also the world is corrupt and we’re called out of it . So while the natural creation does exhibit remnants of Gods glory also we have to consider what man did to the world we were given

“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so there’s like a corruption upon this remnant of Gods image and glory regarding the world. We want to come out of this worlds mindset and thinking completely

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

regarding the old law that isnt for us God removed that from Christians we dont need to. Just need to listen to what he said beforehand and after

Yes, we want to be morally transformed by renewing our minds, so we will learn and value God's will (RM 12:2), which includes serving as the salt and light of Love and Truth in this world (MT 5:13-16).

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, we want to be morally transformed by renewing our minds, so we will learn and value God's will (RM 12:2), which includes serving as the salt and light of Love and Truth in this world (MT 5:13-16).

amen and what would renew the mind ? Maybe if we believed in and put our faith in one person God sent , and he taught us about God and we just believed him and began to let that be the truth ?

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

maybe we would start to see God as our father if we heard the gospel and believed maybe that’s the part that transforms the mind.

“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:16‬ ‭

maybe we could understand God as if he was our fether in heaven if we let Jesus the son teach us about him in the everlasting gospel.

sometimes we would have to repent and change our minds when it’s stuff we don’t want to necassarily hear about the father and the children. Often it’s teaching us how to behave now that we believe and are being adopted as children in him

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:16‬ ‭

Some People here say well that’s just “works not faith.” But hearing Gods word and acting upon what he said , because we believe him , has always been what faith is made of since Noah and Abraham and them….


the gospel also is about hearing Jesus and believing

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

as we listen to him it should change our minds because we call him lord is my point I think you probably already understand that part from other things youve written but I was just saying it’s hearing and believing the preaching of the gospel because we hear things like this

“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:33‬ ‭

“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:9, 12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we learn from Jesus the son about the father we can trust what he says it was his place to reveal the father and the apostles place to reveal the son and our place to reveal the disciples of Jesus.