Understanding God’s election

[Magenta]

There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as
wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or
wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from
a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things
that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does
recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory
of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and
judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie
behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done
for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds
are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point
where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!” source

Romans 3:10-12
The depraved state of man is not just presented in Calvinism, either, but also in Arminianism, and Molinism.

The Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners. Of the natural man:
- all our righteous acts are like filthy rags
- there are NONE righteous
- a bad tree cannot produce good fruit
- all are under the control of the evil one
- captive to the will of the devil
- we need to be rescued
- man’s heart is deceitful and desperately wicked
- man is born dead in transgression and sin
- is held captive by a love for sin
- will not seek God
- he loves the darkness
- does not understand the things of God
- suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness
- continues to willfully live in sin
- sinful lifestyle seems right to men
- rejects the gospel of Christ as foolishness
- hostile toward God in their mind
- does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so

 

[Musicmaster]

This doesn't answer my questions either, to say the least.

Iron sharpens iron...or at least, it does in some cases while not in others. Good luck getting a coherent answer beyond one-liners.

MM

 

[Inquisitor]

There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as
wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or
wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from
a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things
that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does
recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory
of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and
judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie
behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done
for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds
are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point
where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!” source

Romans 3:10-12
The depraved state of man is not just presented in Calvinism, either, but also in Arminianism, and Molinism.

The Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners. Of the natural man:
- all our righteous acts are like filthy rags
- there are NONE righteous
- a bad tree cannot produce good fruit
- all are under the control of the evil one
- captive to the will of the devil
- we need to be rescued
- man’s heart is deceitful and desperately wicked
- man is born dead in transgression and sin
- is held captive by a love for sin
- will not seek God
- he loves the darkness
- does not understand the things of God
- suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness
- continues to willfully live in sin
- sinful lifestyle seems right to men
- rejects the gospel of Christ as foolishness
- hostile toward God in their mind
- does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so

We murdered the author of life and executed the apostles.

I would not say that everything man does is tainted by sin.

Your far to soft in your description of mankind's nature.

 

[Musicmaster]

There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as
wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or
wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from
a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things
that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does
recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory
of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and
judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie
behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done
for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds
are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point
where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!” source

Thanks for this clarification in your viewpoint.

What I will say is that it would be nice if the hardline TULIP model definitions were that docile. Sproul and MacArthur were not, are not, so docile in how they define the T of total depravity. I pretty much agree with what you said, apart from how it is understood by the followers of the corrupt TULIP model.

Again, thanks for this.

The depraved state of man is not just presented in Calvinism, either, but also in Arminianism, and Molinism.

Most people don't realize that Armenian was a Calvinist. Shocker, huh?

The Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners. Of the natural man:
- all our righteous acts are like filthy rags
- there are NONE righteous
- a bad tree cannot produce good fruit
- all are under the control of the evil one
- captive to the will of the devil
- we need to be rescued
- man’s heart is deceitful and desperately wicked
- man is born dead in transgression and sin
- is held captive by a love for sin
- will not seek God
- he loves the darkness
- does not understand the things of God
- suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness
- continues to willfully live in sin
- sinful lifestyle seems right to men
- rejects the gospel of Christ as foolishness
- hostile toward God in their mind
- does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so

I like what Paul said about this in relation to the saved who have com to believe in the Gospel of Grace as opposed to the Kingdom Gospel that does not apply to us today:

Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

In relation to the unsaved, hyper-Calvinism teaches that God predetermined who will populate Hell and who will populate Heaven, or the New Earth or the New Jerusalem, independent of the individual's volition of choice. Granted, no man can save himself. We all can rest in agreement upon that absolute truth. However, for any man who rejects Christ, to say He did so because the Lord intentionally chose to NOT give him that ability, that's just messed up theology and discernment of the texts. That is a corruption of perfect justice of which we SHOULD believe the Lord meets out to all. They think that resting on their laurels by claiming, "Well, that's just too bad for him that the Lord chose FOR him that he will go to Hell." That luck of the draw viewpoint of God's justice is sickening to the core.

Again, thanks for the clarification.

MM

 

[GWH]

Paul taught the following regarding election:

TOP #41: According to His purpose or plan of salvation (POS), God called those He foreknew or predestined to become siblings of Christ to be like/conform to Christ. [RM 8:28-30] Paul indicates in 1TM 2:3-4 that God calls everyone or wants all to be saved, but not everyone cooperates with His POS.

TOP #142: Because of His love God chose believers in Christ from before the creation to be adopted as His children through faith in Jesus Christ, in whom believers have redemption or forgiveness of sins because of his death. [EPH 1:3-8, 2TM 1:10-12] This plan of salvation (POS) is called being “chosen” or “predestined” (v.4-5&11). It sounds as though the entire universe was created solely in order to carry out God’s POS. This mention of predestination to holiness is a significant restatement of TOP #41.

TOP #143: “In him/Christ” refers to those who elect to become elect or chosen by understanding and believing/hoping in Jesus for salvation. [EPH 1:4-15] IOW, election involves cooperation between the will of God and the volition or limited free moral will of human souls. God creates and initiates; humans cooperate—or not.

TOP #144: God’s POS to save all who accept the Gospel of Christ including Gentiles was a mystery until revealed to Paul. [EPH 1:9-10, 3:2-11] This is an elaboration of TOP #2 & 9. Paul said that this truth was a mystery, although we find hints of it in a few OT writings, especially in Isaiah (e.g., IS 42:6, 49:6 & 60:3).

TOP #145: Those who learn the Gospel truth and believe in Jesus receive the Holy Spirit as a foretaste of heaven. [EPH 1:13-14, 2TM 1:14] In the second verse, Paul told Timothy to guard the deposit (apparently the Gospel and other sound teaching) with the help of the HS. This teaching is echoed in HB 6:4-5, which hints at Pauline authorship of that anonymous epistle.

TOP #225: From the beginning God chose to save those who believed the true Gospel and thus received the Spirit who sanctifies them as they persevere in learning GW. [2THS 2:13-17&3:5] Such sanctification involves being encouraged. This teaching adds to #210 by connecting GW and HS to the Gospel truth and persevering sanctification (#211&220).

TOP #231: God wants everyone to be saved or believe the true faith that there is one God and one mediator, who is the man, Christ Jesus. [1TM 2:3-7] This is perhaps the most foundational passage in the TOP. All interpretation of Scripture should conform with this manifold teaching: 1. God loves everyone including His enemies including Satan (cf. MT 5:44&48), 2. Thus God prevents no one from choosing to believe the truth as revealed and be saved or elect (MT 23:37, ACTS 28:26-27), 3. The full truth is the gospel that Christ paid the ransom for sin and thus is the Way to heaven (JN 14:6).

TOP #250: From the beginning God planned to grace souls with salvation to heaven who believed in the Gospel that Jesus is Christ. [2TM 1:8-10]

 

[Musicmaster]

We murdered the author of life...

That's nothing but sanctimonious nonsense!

1 Corinthians 2:6-8
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Who are those princes? They were the demonic princes who were of the power to delay the Archangel who delivered the Lord's message to Daniel the prophet. It wasn't people like Prince Phillip or Prince BillyBob.

We Jews crucified our Messiah through the wicked and evil Roman leadership, spurred on by the demon princes who were ignorant of the ultimate effect their folly brought about, and that they would never have pushed to accomplish had they known that the ultimate result, hidden in God from the creation of the world, would bring about the dispensation of grace unto the Gentiles indepednent of Israel.

Do you not recall that it was Satan who entered Judas to betray Christ into the hands that would crucify the Lord? Satan was duped, but didn't know it until it was too late.

MM

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

In Matt. 11: 23-24 Jesus addresses the unbelieving citizens of Bethsaida and Capernaum, lamenting the rejection of His ministry by most of them.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things (panta: neuter plural of the neuter singular pan) are delivered/given over unto me of my Father (echoing John 6:37 : and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

"All things (panta: neuter plural of the neuter singular pan) are delivered/given over unto me of my Father " is echoed in both Jhn 6:37 "Everything (pan: neuter singular) that the Father giveth me shall come to me..." and Jhn 13:3
"Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things (panta: neuter plural) into his hands..."

In Matt. 11:25-27 Jesus turns His attention away from the same unbelieving audience to God and addresses the Father, rejoicing that despite this antagonism to His ministry shown by the majority of Capernaum and Bethsaida, there are a few unschooled persons from those cities who have received Him and His message, a few of whom are actually among His inner circle of the twelve.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

In Matt. 11: 28-30 Jesus returns His attention to the same unbelieving audience and exhorts them to cease from their stubborn rejection of His teaching and to listen and learn from Him.

If I concede that you are giving your understanding from scripture, can you answer in your own words?

I have no idea what you are asking me to do.

 

[PaulThomson]

Really? He did drive out the money changers from the temple on two different occasions. So, there is that...



Two things: First, demonstrate to me that you understand the difference between qualfied and unqualfiied statements, declarations or propositions.

Secondly, which passage in Jn 6 has my interepretation allegedly committed the above fallacy. Be specific.

The money changers did not "come to Jesus". Jesus came to them. So, how does that refute what I said. "Jesus never drove away anyone that came to Him, even the murderous scribes and pharisees."

"Hats are permitted." is an unqualified statement. What kind of hats is not restricted.

"Red hats are permissible." "Red" qualifies which hats are permissible. Permission is being consented here for only red hats. Now if someone asks "What about blue hats?" The answer may be, "Yes, blue hats are OK too." Permitting red does not automatically prohibit all other colours.

"Only red hats are permissible." "Only red" qualifies which hats and does limit the permissible hats to one colour, red. The word "ONLY" does not appear in John 6 as a qualifier. But you seem to be fallaciously insisting on eisegeting it into the chapter.

Declarations are official statements about something. Signing a form asserting, "I have no food items in my luggage." is making a declaration.

In normal discourse, a propositions is an idea, a plan, a suggestion, an opinion or an offer. In logic, a proposition is a statement that can be either true or false; it must be one or the other, and it cannot be both.

You have claimed that "All who have been taught and learned of the Father come to Jesus" means that ONLY those who have been taught and learned of the Father come to Jesus. That is an example of the negative inference fallacy.
Now, quit stalling. Explain in your own words, the negative inference fallacy.

 

[Cameron143]

PaulThomson said:
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

In Matt. 11: 23-24 Jesus addresses the unbelieving citizens of Bethsaida and Capernaum, lamenting the rejection of His ministry by most of them.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things (panta: neuter plural of the neuter singular pan) are delivered/given over unto me of my Father (echoing John 6:37 : and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

"All things (panta: neuter plural of the neuter singular pan) are delivered/given over unto me of my Father " is echoed in both Jhn 6:37 "Everything (pan: neuter singular) that the Father giveth me shall come to me..." and Jhn 13:3
"Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things (panta: neuter plural) into his hands..."

In Matt. 11:25-27 Jesus turns His attention away from the same unbelieving audience to God and addresses the Father, rejoicing that despite this antagonism to His ministry shown by the majority of Capernaum and Bethsaida, there are a few unschooled persons from those cities who have received Him and His message, a few of whom are actually among His inner circle of the twelve.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

In Matt. 11: 28-30 Jesus returns His attention to the same unbelieving audience and exhorts them to cease from their stubborn rejection of His teaching and to listen and learn from Him.



I have no idea what you are asking me to do.

I was simply asking for your point in your own words.

If we are going to understand Matthew 11 we should start at the beginning. The first 10 chapters establish Jesus as the long awaited Messiah. This is accomplished through a genealogy, then through a series of fulfilled prophesies, then a comparison between Moses to the greater Moses.
That's a quick trip through the first 10 chapters. Starting with chapter 11, Matthew begins to consider Israel's response to the coming of Messiah. John the Baptist came one way. They reject him. Jesus comes another way and they reject Him. So Jesus begins to unbraid them for their unbelief. Of all the people who should have recognized when Messiah came, it was the Jews. Yet, despite all the evidence, they reject Him.

Next Jesus answers the Father. The implication is that the Father has given Jesus some information He is responding to. Just as Jesus reminded John about the kingdom and what God had promised, it seems the Father reminded Jesus that the Father reveals truth to some and not to others. And Jesus seems to be good with the arrangement. And then He tells the crowd that He is there to reveal the Father, and does so through the invitation He gives.

Jesus revealing the Father is part of His reason in coming. Having the earth filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord is God's goal in creation. So Jesus gives an invitation for all to come. That doesn't mean He believes all will respond. But He does know the ones God reveals Jesus to will. Read Matthew 16:18...flesh and blood didn't reveal that Jesus is the Christ, but God did. And that's how Jesus builds His church.

We share the gospel with everyone because that's the means God employs to reveal Jesus. We don't know who will respond to Jesus' invitation, but God does, because He's the one revealing Him.

 

[brightfame52]

Mention of the elect are not even in the context, so you're still arguing from silence.

So, what's your point?

MM

The word elect doesnt always have to be mentioned, its just a simple soteriological fact.

 

[brightfame52]

This doesn't answer my questions either, to say the least.

And so what ? When you say come to Jesus, what Jesus you mean ?