Understanding God’s election
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ALL is pan, Greek neuter singular (everything), not pas (everyone).
Jesus never drove away anyone who came to Him, including His enemies, the murderous scribes and pharisees.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all (pan, neuter singular: everything) that he has given me, but raise it (auto, neuter singular: it) up at the last day.
This is possibly talking about the creation of a new heaven and earth at the end of the last day. Or possibly talking about the millennium when the just reign of mankind under Christ over the earth that God had given to Adam at the first is restored. It is not just about men. Jesus does not use pas (everyone), and autous (them)
Again. Every person who ever lived will be raised at the last day. Jesus never says that ONLY the righteous will be raised at the last day. But v. 40 is probably not just about raising up people, since the pronoun is auto (it), and not autois (them).
Two things are required. Looking upon AND believing on the Son. Many people in John had come to Jesus across and around the lake, and had been looking on Jesus teaching at Capernaum, who had not believed in Him yet, or who stopped believing in him because of His seeming call to cannibalism, and had forsaken him by the end of John 6.
Yes. Those who believe after coming and looking and hearing and learning, receive aeonous life. No surprises there.
Please demonstrate that you understand what the negative inference fallacy is, by giving us your explanation of it. I think you still have no idea why your eisegesis of this text is logically invalid and unsound.
Jesus never drove away anyone who came to Him, including His enemies, the murderous scribes and pharisees.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all (pan, neuter singular: everything) that he has given me, but raise it (auto, neuter singular: it) up at the last day.
This is possibly talking about the creation of a new heaven and earth at the end of the last day. Or possibly talking about the millennium when the just reign of mankind under Christ over the earth that God had given to Adam at the first is restored. It is not just about men. Jesus does not use pas (everyone), and autous (them)
Again. Every person who ever lived will be raised at the last day. Jesus never says that ONLY the righteous will be raised at the last day. But v. 40 is probably not just about raising up people, since the pronoun is auto (it), and not autois (them).
Two things are required. Looking upon AND believing on the Son. Many people in John had come to Jesus across and around the lake, and had been looking on Jesus teaching at Capernaum, who had not believed in Him yet, or who stopped believing in him because of His seeming call to cannibalism, and had forsaken him by the end of John 6.
Yes. Those who believe after coming and looking and hearing and learning, receive aeonous life. No surprises there.
Please demonstrate that you understand what the negative inference fallacy is, by giving us your explanation of it. I think you still have no idea why your eisegesis of this text is logically invalid and unsound.
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1. The Father gives a people to Jesus.
2. ALL (not just some, many or a few) the Father gives will come to Jesus (v. 37)....
7. This drawing also involves listening to and learning [Gospel Truth] from the Father (v. 45)
8. And those who listen and learn come to Jesus (v. 45).
Jhn 6:37
ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
The ALL in John 6:37 is neuter singular (everything) "Everything the Father gives...). And certainly ALL includes those who come to Jesus to examine Him and eventually believe; but ALL is not limited to only those who eventually believe.
Jhn 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Yes, those who listened and LEARNED from the Father before Jesus arrived preaching, were attracted to Jesus because He resonated with what the Father had been saying through scripture. But the text does ot say that ONKLY those who had listened and LEARNED would come to Jesus. And again, John chapter 6 catalogues many characters who came to Jesus who had no learned from the Father and came to Jesus to repudiate His teaching. Nevertheless, they were drawn to Jesus by the Father wotking through Jesus to say controversial things and to do arresting deeds.
This is strange question coming from a proponent of exhaustive divine determinism. Exhaustive divine determinism insists that everything and everyone that comes to you and me are "given by God".
If He raises them up on the last day, even for condemnation, He did not lose them.
Does that logically mean that He did not pray to the Father so that they would turn from their sins and believe on him?
Objection. Speculation.
The Father has given all judgment over to the Son. How can the Son judge reprobate people God has not handed over to Him for judgment? Has not God given ALL THINGS into Jesus hands
Jhn 13:3
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
Or... you you have a logically distorted misunderstanding of John 6. This last explanation clears Jesus of your ridiculous slanders and incriminates you. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Coming to Jesus is the clear mark of being drawn by the Father. "No one can come to Me unless the Father draw Him." Listening and learning are not give as signs are required of those being drawn to Jesus by God. Take a course in logic please.
2. ALL (not just some, many or a few) the Father gives will come to Jesus (v. 37)....
7. This drawing also involves listening to and learning [Gospel Truth] from the Father (v. 45)
8. And those who listen and learn come to Jesus (v. 45).
Jhn 6:37
ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
The ALL in John 6:37 is neuter singular (everything) "Everything the Father gives...). And certainly ALL includes those who come to Jesus to examine Him and eventually believe; but ALL is not limited to only those who eventually believe.
Jhn 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Yes, those who listened and LEARNED from the Father before Jesus arrived preaching, were attracted to Jesus because He resonated with what the Father had been saying through scripture. But the text does ot say that ONKLY those who had listened and LEARNED would come to Jesus. And again, John chapter 6 catalogues many characters who came to Jesus who had no learned from the Father and came to Jesus to repudiate His teaching. Nevertheless, they were drawn to Jesus by the Father wotking through Jesus to say controversial things and to do arresting deeds.
This is strange question coming from a proponent of exhaustive divine determinism. Exhaustive divine determinism insists that everything and everyone that comes to you and me are "given by God".
If He raises them up on the last day, even for condemnation, He did not lose them.
Does that logically mean that He did not pray to the Father so that they would turn from their sins and believe on him?
Objection. Speculation.
The Father has given all judgment over to the Son. How can the Son judge reprobate people God has not handed over to Him for judgment? Has not God given ALL THINGS into Jesus hands
Jhn 13:3
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
Or... you you have a logically distorted misunderstanding of John 6. This last explanation clears Jesus of your ridiculous slanders and incriminates you. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Coming to Jesus is the clear mark of being drawn by the Father. "No one can come to Me unless the Father draw Him." Listening and learning are not give as signs are required of those being drawn to Jesus by God. Take a course in logic please.
@PaulThomson
Thats because those who came to Him had been given to Him by the Father Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Thats why the murderous pharisee Saul of Tarsus came to Jesus, he had been chosen by God to be saved
Thats because those who came to Him had been given to Him by the Father Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Thats why the murderous pharisee Saul of Tarsus came to Jesus, he had been chosen by God to be saved
A little better, but I've stripped out some of your fallacious argumentation and unnecessary rhetoric in case you simply don't know what it is. Actually, most if not all of the long paragraph could be deleted.
I've previously laid out sufficient detail re: 6:37. As I recall @PaulThomson has done the same. If you'd like to focus in on it, please go back and read our comments and tell me what you don't understand or do question.
Look at 6:35 which you referenced but did not paraphrase and look at 6:40 again and clarify that you see coming toward Jesus and faith in parallel. Take into account from 6:37 who He's talking to.
Look at 6:43-47 and clarify if you see coming toward Jesus and faith in parallel.
I'm translating the preposition as "toward" to make certain I'm tracking the actual phrase through the chapter and don't miss some transition to a different preposition. You might want to look at 6:5 and take into account that John uses the same phrase "come toward him (Jesus)" for the crowd as he does elsewhere - actually throughout J6. I'm having a few thoughts about this important phrase that I'll consider this morning before adding to the discussion. I'd actually like @PaulThomson involved since we both do look at the language and I'm learning a few things in J6 from analyzing again for this discussion and from some of his thoughts.
I think the truth that God's nature is moral and loving can be inferred from NR, which per Paul is sufficient to serve as the basis of God's just judgment, but the details do indeed depend on SR, so I guess some folks will have more to learn than others when they get to heaven.
I am up to TOP #250 in 2TM, and the relevant teachings I have gleaned so far include:
TOP #3: God is manifested by His creation. [ACTS 14:16-17//RM 1:20] Nature shows God’s kindness and divine blessings provide joy.
TOP #5: God created the world including humanity, and in Him we have our being. [ACTS 17:24-28]
TOP #10: Although God’s creation reveals His power and loving moral nature, godless people suppress truth and exchange it for the lie of idolatry. [RM 1:18-25, cf. #3] This is what Adam and Eve did. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and moral nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20). Apparently, creation combined with conscience or moral sense (RM 2:14-16) that manifests a moral Authority, serves as a provisional or proto-gospel (CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8).
TOP #22: For Jews, obeying the Mosaic Law will serve as the basis of divine judgment. [RM 2:9-13&16]
TOP #23: For Gentiles unfamiliar with the OT (or NT), their moral consciences will serve as the equivalent of the Mosaic Law for divine judgment. [RM 2:12-16]
TOP #26: Abraham is the spiritual father of all who have faith in God and Jesus. [RM 4:1-25]
TOP #31: Sin and death began with Adam and everyone else also sinned, so death reigned until the time of Moses over both Jews and Gentiles. [RM 5:12-14] Paul did not bother to state that this situation continued from Moses until the present.
TOP #44: Although many Jews reject the Gospel/Christ, God’s covenant with Abraham did not fail, because the children of Abraham includes (spiritually circumcised) Gentiles. [RM 9:1-33, cf. TOP #24] Paul explained that the reason Israelites are not saved is because they ignored God’s purpose in election or POS involving mercy (v.11-15) on those having faith in Christ and instead pursued righteousness by works or obeying the law (v.30-33).
TOP #45: God has the power to determine what is required for salvation, and He is just to destroy those who resist His will. [RM 9:16-29] Paul cites Scripture (EX 10:1) saying that God hardened Pharoah’s heart for the purpose of revealing divine power, and then he notes (v.20-21) that a potter has the right to make pottery for various uses.
TOP #46: Those who reject God’s will/POS will experience His wrath and destruction. [RM 9:22-29] Sodom and Gomorrah are cited as examples, and Paul cited Isaiah saying (in IS 10:22-23) only a remnant of Israel would be saved.
TOP #48: The Gospel is revealed to everyone in the world in various ways. [RM 10:14-18] Other verses indicating this truth include CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18 & GL 3:8. Apparently Paul affirms God revealed in creation (RM 1:20) and conscience (RM 2:14-16) or what has been termed “general revelation” as functioning as a provisional or proto-gospel as being sufficient for saving those who seek God and find Him via this means, so that souls are “without excuse”.
TOP #49: God may be found even by those who do not seek Him. [RM 10:19-20] This is because God is revealed through general revelation per the previous TOP.
TOP #74: Gentiles are included in God’s plan of salvation. [RM 15:8-12] This truth has been alluded to in TOP #9 & 23, and it is called a mystery in 16:25 (elaborated in Ephesians 2).
TOP #144: God’s POS to save all who accept the Gospel of Christ including Gentiles was a mystery until revealed to Paul. [EPH 1:9-10, 3:2-11] This is an elaboration of TOP #2 & 9. Paul said that this truth was a mystery, although we find hints of it in a few OT writings, especially in Isaiah (e.g., IS 42:6, 49:6 & 60:3).
TOP #190: Hope for heaven is the proper motivation for having faith in God/Christ. [PHP 3:9-11] This is why faith and hope (not sight, cf. 2CR 5:7) are regularly mentioned together or interchangeably (RM 8:24-25, 1CR 13:13, 1TM 6:17, TIT 1:2, HB 11:1).
TOP #191: Seekers/Christians should behave in accordance with what they have learned as they continue to learn God’s will/word. [PHP 3:15-17] Paul cites himself as an example. Those who habitually sin indicate that their profession of Christ is false (cf. TOP #167 & 211).
TOP #196: Christ is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation by whom everything else was created. [COL 1:15-17] This TOP echoes JN 1:1-3, 10&14. “Image” seems synonymous with “incarnation”, and it refers to humanity being created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27). Because God is invisible rather than physical, the term must mean having God-like spiritual attributes such as moral consciousness, which animals do not possess. “In him all things hold together” seems akin to what Paul said to the Athenians, “In him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28, TOP #5).
TOP #197: Christ is head of his spiritual body or church, because God is most fully revealed in the human dimension by him. [COL 1:18-19&24, 2:19] This teaching concerns the doctrine of the Trinity. The church was also mentioned in EPH 3:10.
TOP #198: Christ’s death on the cross is God’s way of reconciling all things to himself. [COL 1:19-20] Not only are souls saved, but all of creation is thereby redeemed from its fallen state.
TOP #219: Test everything and hold on to the good but avoid every evil. [1THS 5:21] Everything could include elements in extra-biblical cultures, which may have true insights regarding God and morality perceived via general revelation (cf. TOP #10 & 23). An example of Paul doing this may be seen when he was in Athens, where he commended religion, but then proclaimed what God commands and the day of judgment (ACTS 17:22-31).
TOP #221: God is just. [2THS 1:6] HB 6:10 says that God is not unjust, EPH 6:9 defines justness as not showing favoritism and RM 3:25-26 says that God demonstrates his justice.
TOP #231: God wants everyone to be saved or believe the true faith that there is one God and one mediator, who is the man, Christ Jesus. [1TM 2:3-7] This is perhaps the most foundational passage in the TOP. All interpretation of Scripture should conform with this manifold teaching: 1. God loves everyone including His enemies including Satan (cf. MT 5:44&48), 2. Thus God prevents no one from choosing to believe the truth as revealed and be saved or elect (MT 23:37, ACTS 28:26-27), 3. The full truth is the gospel that Christ paid the ransom for sin and thus is the Way to heaven (JN 14:6).
I am up to TOP #250 in 2TM, and the relevant teachings I have gleaned so far include:
TOP #3: God is manifested by His creation. [ACTS 14:16-17//RM 1:20] Nature shows God’s kindness and divine blessings provide joy.
TOP #5: God created the world including humanity, and in Him we have our being. [ACTS 17:24-28]
TOP #10: Although God’s creation reveals His power and loving moral nature, godless people suppress truth and exchange it for the lie of idolatry. [RM 1:18-25, cf. #3] This is what Adam and Eve did. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and moral nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20). Apparently, creation combined with conscience or moral sense (RM 2:14-16) that manifests a moral Authority, serves as a provisional or proto-gospel (CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8).
TOP #22: For Jews, obeying the Mosaic Law will serve as the basis of divine judgment. [RM 2:9-13&16]
TOP #23: For Gentiles unfamiliar with the OT (or NT), their moral consciences will serve as the equivalent of the Mosaic Law for divine judgment. [RM 2:12-16]
TOP #26: Abraham is the spiritual father of all who have faith in God and Jesus. [RM 4:1-25]
TOP #31: Sin and death began with Adam and everyone else also sinned, so death reigned until the time of Moses over both Jews and Gentiles. [RM 5:12-14] Paul did not bother to state that this situation continued from Moses until the present.
TOP #44: Although many Jews reject the Gospel/Christ, God’s covenant with Abraham did not fail, because the children of Abraham includes (spiritually circumcised) Gentiles. [RM 9:1-33, cf. TOP #24] Paul explained that the reason Israelites are not saved is because they ignored God’s purpose in election or POS involving mercy (v.11-15) on those having faith in Christ and instead pursued righteousness by works or obeying the law (v.30-33).
TOP #45: God has the power to determine what is required for salvation, and He is just to destroy those who resist His will. [RM 9:16-29] Paul cites Scripture (EX 10:1) saying that God hardened Pharoah’s heart for the purpose of revealing divine power, and then he notes (v.20-21) that a potter has the right to make pottery for various uses.
TOP #46: Those who reject God’s will/POS will experience His wrath and destruction. [RM 9:22-29] Sodom and Gomorrah are cited as examples, and Paul cited Isaiah saying (in IS 10:22-23) only a remnant of Israel would be saved.
TOP #48: The Gospel is revealed to everyone in the world in various ways. [RM 10:14-18] Other verses indicating this truth include CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18 & GL 3:8. Apparently Paul affirms God revealed in creation (RM 1:20) and conscience (RM 2:14-16) or what has been termed “general revelation” as functioning as a provisional or proto-gospel as being sufficient for saving those who seek God and find Him via this means, so that souls are “without excuse”.
TOP #49: God may be found even by those who do not seek Him. [RM 10:19-20] This is because God is revealed through general revelation per the previous TOP.
TOP #74: Gentiles are included in God’s plan of salvation. [RM 15:8-12] This truth has been alluded to in TOP #9 & 23, and it is called a mystery in 16:25 (elaborated in Ephesians 2).
TOP #144: God’s POS to save all who accept the Gospel of Christ including Gentiles was a mystery until revealed to Paul. [EPH 1:9-10, 3:2-11] This is an elaboration of TOP #2 & 9. Paul said that this truth was a mystery, although we find hints of it in a few OT writings, especially in Isaiah (e.g., IS 42:6, 49:6 & 60:3).
TOP #190: Hope for heaven is the proper motivation for having faith in God/Christ. [PHP 3:9-11] This is why faith and hope (not sight, cf. 2CR 5:7) are regularly mentioned together or interchangeably (RM 8:24-25, 1CR 13:13, 1TM 6:17, TIT 1:2, HB 11:1).
TOP #191: Seekers/Christians should behave in accordance with what they have learned as they continue to learn God’s will/word. [PHP 3:15-17] Paul cites himself as an example. Those who habitually sin indicate that their profession of Christ is false (cf. TOP #167 & 211).
TOP #196: Christ is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of creation by whom everything else was created. [COL 1:15-17] This TOP echoes JN 1:1-3, 10&14. “Image” seems synonymous with “incarnation”, and it refers to humanity being created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27). Because God is invisible rather than physical, the term must mean having God-like spiritual attributes such as moral consciousness, which animals do not possess. “In him all things hold together” seems akin to what Paul said to the Athenians, “In him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28, TOP #5).
TOP #197: Christ is head of his spiritual body or church, because God is most fully revealed in the human dimension by him. [COL 1:18-19&24, 2:19] This teaching concerns the doctrine of the Trinity. The church was also mentioned in EPH 3:10.
TOP #198: Christ’s death on the cross is God’s way of reconciling all things to himself. [COL 1:19-20] Not only are souls saved, but all of creation is thereby redeemed from its fallen state.
TOP #219: Test everything and hold on to the good but avoid every evil. [1THS 5:21] Everything could include elements in extra-biblical cultures, which may have true insights regarding God and morality perceived via general revelation (cf. TOP #10 & 23). An example of Paul doing this may be seen when he was in Athens, where he commended religion, but then proclaimed what God commands and the day of judgment (ACTS 17:22-31).
TOP #221: God is just. [2THS 1:6] HB 6:10 says that God is not unjust, EPH 6:9 defines justness as not showing favoritism and RM 3:25-26 says that God demonstrates his justice.
TOP #231: God wants everyone to be saved or believe the true faith that there is one God and one mediator, who is the man, Christ Jesus. [1TM 2:3-7] This is perhaps the most foundational passage in the TOP. All interpretation of Scripture should conform with this manifold teaching: 1. God loves everyone including His enemies including Satan (cf. MT 5:44&48), 2. Thus God prevents no one from choosing to believe the truth as revealed and be saved or elect (MT 23:37, ACTS 28:26-27), 3. The full truth is the gospel that Christ paid the ransom for sin and thus is the Way to heaven (JN 14:6).
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
So, if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that John was inspired to write something that doesn't mean what it says? Please show to us anything in that context that would offer any limitations to the scope of "all". By what authority do you inject a constraint into that statement in order to limit its scope only to the "elect"? Repeating yourself doesn't prove anything when you fail to provide backing to your stand-alone claim. Was John's fingers cramping up, thus causing him to leave out that constraint of meaning? I mean, what are you saying? Where's the proof?
The license so many seem to think they have in altering the text in order to try and force it into conformance to dogmas formulated by other false teachers, that just makes no sense to any honest Bible student. Please show to us why we should believe that you have rightfully injected a limitation to the scope of that verse down to the level of it only encompassing the elect.
MM
So, if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that John was inspired to write something that doesn't mean what it says? Please show to us anything in that context that would offer any limitations to the scope of "all". By what authority do you inject a constraint into that statement in order to limit its scope only to the "elect"? Repeating yourself doesn't prove anything when you fail to provide backing to your stand-alone claim. Was John's fingers cramping up, thus causing him to leave out that constraint of meaning? I mean, what are you saying? Where's the proof?
The license so many seem to think they have in altering the text in order to try and force it into conformance to dogmas formulated by other false teachers, that just makes no sense to any honest Bible student. Please show to us why we should believe that you have rightfully injected a limitation to the scope of that verse down to the level of it only encompassing the elect.
MM
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Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
There's not even a hint in there that would indicate His meaning to be anything akin to, "Take my yoke upon you whom are my elect..." This false practice of forcing constraints into all the texts that defy the horrid falsehoods that ultimately make God guilty of sin by blocking out most from salvation on a basis that not even hyper-Calvinists can identify, apart from God's own sovereignty, that's a cop-out and a cheap parlor trick of smoke and mirrors that has duped many a professing believer. That trash only appeals to human pride!
It's a matter of pride to think that one is saved because they are among the "elect," when the text clearly states that the Lord draws ALL men to Him. If salvation were only for the minority of all human population throughout all of time, then the stated invitations are meaningless, and I for one will subscribe only to the idea that the Lord inspired so much meaningless writings that clearly reflect an open invitation to all without meaning what He intended.
As an Israeli, I can say that not even we believed such nonsense...except for those rabbis among us who were so choked up with their own pride in bloodline affiliations, which is a denial of the spirit of the Law by sticking only to the letter:
2 Corinthians 3:6-8
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
The pharisaic leanings behind TULIP are the words of death. Those who do not hear the Spirit in order to see the Spirit on account of their fixating upon the mere letters of death, they are authorities only unto themselves. They have no reason to ever try to share the Gospel, for if the determination were already made as to who will be saved and who will be lost, predetermined for all men by God, then evangelism is a wasted effort and a mindless expenditure of resources and energy. What a crock!
Even God's Sovereignty has limits.
MM
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
There's not even a hint in there that would indicate His meaning to be anything akin to, "Take my yoke upon you whom are my elect..." This false practice of forcing constraints into all the texts that defy the horrid falsehoods that ultimately make God guilty of sin by blocking out most from salvation on a basis that not even hyper-Calvinists can identify, apart from God's own sovereignty, that's a cop-out and a cheap parlor trick of smoke and mirrors that has duped many a professing believer. That trash only appeals to human pride!
It's a matter of pride to think that one is saved because they are among the "elect," when the text clearly states that the Lord draws ALL men to Him. If salvation were only for the minority of all human population throughout all of time, then the stated invitations are meaningless, and I for one will subscribe only to the idea that the Lord inspired so much meaningless writings that clearly reflect an open invitation to all without meaning what He intended.
As an Israeli, I can say that not even we believed such nonsense...except for those rabbis among us who were so choked up with their own pride in bloodline affiliations, which is a denial of the spirit of the Law by sticking only to the letter:
2 Corinthians 3:6-8
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
The pharisaic leanings behind TULIP are the words of death. Those who do not hear the Spirit in order to see the Spirit on account of their fixating upon the mere letters of death, they are authorities only unto themselves. They have no reason to ever try to share the Gospel, for if the determination were already made as to who will be saved and who will be lost, predetermined for all men by God, then evangelism is a wasted effort and a mindless expenditure of resources and energy. What a crock!
Even God's Sovereignty has limits.
MM
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
In Matt. 11: 23-24 Jesus addresses the unbelieving citizens of Bethsaida and Capernaum, lamenting the rejection of His ministry by most of them.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things (panta: neuter plural of the neuter singular pan) are delivered/given over unto me of my Father (echoing John 6:37 : and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
"All things (panta: neuter plural of the neuter singular pan) are delivered/given over unto me of my Father " is echoed in both Jhn 6:37 "Everything (pan: neuter singular) that the Father giveth me shall come to me..." and Jhn 13:3
"Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things (panta: neuter plural) into his hands..."
In Matt. 11:25-27 Jesus turns His attention away from the same unbelieving audience to God and addresses the Father, rejoicing that despite this antagonism to His ministry shown by the majority of Capernaum and Bethsaida, there are a few unschooled persons from those cities who have received Him and His message, a few of whom are actually among His inner circle of the twelve.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
In Matt. 11: 28-30 Jesus returns His attention to the same unbelieving audience and exhorts them to cease from their stubborn rejection of His teaching and to listen and learn from Him.
Sorry. Matt. 11:27 should be with Matt. 11: 28-30 being addressed to the unbelieving audience.
Mat 11:27 All things (panta: neuter plural of the neuter singular pan) are delivered/given over unto me of my Father, and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Mat 11:27 All things (panta: neuter plural of the neuter singular pan) are delivered/given over unto me of my Father, and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Yes. God’s omnipotence means that He can do everything except “disown Himself” or not be God (2TM 2:13). It does NOT mean that God can perform logical absurdities, such as creating a rock too large for Him to move.
Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will.
God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, (such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection and judgment)–called His permissive will.
Omnipotence or sovereignty also means that human MFW has limits with regard to how it can contradict God’s will.
God provides morally competent humans the ability to resist His intentional will and plan of salvation (POS) within limits, (such as the time limit that will end with death, resurrection and judgment)–called His permissive will.
Yes, vv.35-39 is parallel with vv.43-47. The former passage says very plainly that ALL the Father gives to the Son will come to him, and whoever comes to him, Jesus will never drive away and the Father's will is that Jesus should lose not so much as one soul who comes to him, BUT will raise him on on the last day. Jesus is clearly contrasting losing any who the Father gives with the eternal, spiritual alternative, which is their resurrection on the last day! The resurrection in view, therefore, is the resurrection of the righteous. The whole purpose of God for effectually drawing men to his Son is that they would come to believe on Him. Why else would God draw his people to Jesus? It is God who begins the work of salvation in the souls of his chosen people and it is God who also finishes that work (Php 1:6). Jesus' discourse in chapter six is a perfect illustration of this work. First, the Father gives a people and those he gives, he also draws to his Son. And those who are drawn will look to the Son and believe on Him. And these will be rewarded with eternal life at the resurrection of the just.
Just give me a text that says "Mother Nature" is the power of God unto salvation.
And it's not possible for God to show favoritism to anyone since all mankind is corrupt. Therefore, God's election of his people cannot find its ground in the objects of his love, grace, mercy, election and forgiveness. It must find it's purpose in God's sovereign will.
And it's not possible for God to show favoritism to anyone since all mankind is corrupt. Therefore, God's election of his people cannot find its ground in the objects of his love, grace, mercy, election and forgiveness. It must find it's purpose in God's sovereign will.
That is your assumption that the non-elect were drawn to Christ by the Father. You need to prove that. Scripture clearly teaches that it's God's sovereign will that every single person God gives to the Son and draws to the Son, the Son will never drive away, will never lose but will raise him up on the last day! And this resurrection can only be the resurrection of the righteous since it's contrasted with losing people. The resurrection of the unjust will consist of all those who were always lost, will be lost on the last day when Jesus returns and will stay lost for all eternity. They were lost because Jesus in eternity and time NEVER KNEW these lost people (Mat 7:23). He never entered into any kind of personal, loving, covenantal relationship with such, which stands in very sharp contrast to Rom 8:29; 11:2, etc. How shallow would the promise of resurrection be to God's drawn elect if Jesus was referring to the General Resurrection of the Just and Unjust. Plus v. 51 talks of these drawn people as living forever! The lost do not spiritually LIVE forever. The lost remain DEAD in their trespasses and sins, and will eternally suffer the Second Death
And your argument about the Gr. term "pas" (all) is pathetically weak. Strong's defines "all" (Strong's 3956)
NT:3956
NT:3956 pas (pas); including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:
KJV - all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), daily, ever, every (one, way), as many as, no (-thing), thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
BLB Classic:
πᾶς pâs, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:—all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
In addition, BLB goes on to say in its Outline of Biblical Usage:
). Jesus wasn't talking about the "things" of Mother Nature being drawn to him. He didn't have on his mind, the trees, the birds, the bees, the oceans, the rivers, mountains, the moon, the stars, etc. Rather he had strictly people in mind, and this Gr. term pas is often used in the NT with respect to people (cf. Mat 1:17; 2:4, 16; 4:24; 5:15, 22, 28; 7:8, etc, etc. ). Numerous more examples abound!
You're going to have to do much better than you have, thus far.
And your argument about the Gr. term "pas" (all) is pathetically weak. Strong's defines "all" (Strong's 3956)
NT:3956
NT:3956 pas (pas); including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:
KJV - all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), daily, ever, every (one, way), as many as, no (-thing), thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
BLB Classic:
πᾶς pâs, pas; including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole:—all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), × daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.
In addition, BLB goes on to say in its Outline of Biblical Usage:
- individually
- each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
- collectively
- some of all types
). Jesus wasn't talking about the "things" of Mother Nature being drawn to him. He didn't have on his mind, the trees, the birds, the bees, the oceans, the rivers, mountains, the moon, the stars, etc. Rather he had strictly people in mind, and this Gr. term pas is often used in the NT with respect to people (cf. Mat 1:17; 2:4, 16; 4:24; 5:15, 22, 28; 7:8, etc, etc. ). Numerous more examples abound!You're going to have to do much better than you have, thus far.