Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
62,584
31,440
113
#81

Isaiah 6:9-10, Luke 8:10, (Matthew 13:14-15, Mark 4:12, Romans 11:8, John 12:39-40, Acts 28:26-27, Ezekiel 12:2,Jeremiah 5:21, Deuteronomy 29:4, Psalm 115:4-8, Psalm 135:15-18) ~ The voice of the Lord said: “Go and tell this people, ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
17,193
691
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#82
And this is the main point, it's only in Him that we are free from sin, right? Before that we are a SLAVE to sin, but guess what happens once God gives us spiritual life and we are born again? We get a new nature, and that nature is just as enslaved to obedience leading to righteousness as the flesh was to sin. So "our will" is never "free" according to His word. We are "A slave of sin or slave of Him" as I like to say.

What I do not mean in any way, shape, form, or fashion is that we do not have choice, or agency. His word is also very clear that we are to choose wisely and judge with righteous judgment. We have choice, that choice matters, and I believe that is the reality we exist in. However our choice is lorded over, enslaved to, and guided by our nature. They are 2 natures a man can have, the first one we are born to through Adam, the flesh born with a dead spirit. Every human being since the fall was born this way save one. Jesus the Christ who was born of the Spirit through a virgin was not born disconnected from God, and lived His whole life never sinning against His Father once. He laid down His life willingly to take the Holy and righteous wrath of God for all sin, so that the price for that sin is paid and He can not only justly forgive our sin when He brings us to repentance, but also applies Jesus righteousness to us making us a clean temple He can now indwell and guide by His Spirit as we were created to be.

Now because of Jesus we can be born again, giving us a new nature, of the Spirit, that guides and empowers us to do things pleasing to God. So no matter which one we are we never have a "free will". It's always a slave of our nature, either the flesh or the Spirit. Make sense?
makes sense. yet before I came to this transformation given me by God for me through Son to me.
I took the only choice free, left to me and chose belief in the risen Son to see new. Not quit no matter what troubles came and might come, matters not, it is done by Son for me to be in from my free choice to believe in Son, and continue in.
Yes I am now a slave to righteousness, because I stand in belief to God, not of any self work, only of Daddy's PaPa's, Father's done work
thanks Jimbone your post replies have opened up a fountain in me, thank you
 
Sep 29, 2024
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#83
makes sense. yet before I came to this transformation given me by God for me through Son to me.
I took the only choice free, left to me and chose belief in the risen Son to see new. Not quit no matter what troubles came and might come, matters not, it is done by Son for me to be in from my free choice to believe in Son, and continue in.
Yes I am now a slave to righteousness, because I stand in belief to God, not of any self work, only of Daddy's PaPa's, Father's done work
thanks Jimbone your post replies have opened up a fountain in me, thank you
"it wants you to think about all the problems at one time for confusion to get in you."

As someone who's experienced bouts of major depression throughout my life, can truly say that's one of the wisest sentences i've read or heard.

Love your comments actually, much spiritual wisdom and understanding of others contained in them. You're a truly lovely person, hugs and all that's good.
 
Sep 29, 2024
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#84
Good day dear lady... this has been an ongoing topic here for a number of months recently...

I hope you have a good day and that your physical problems do not cause you too much trouble.
Have you considered using a phone to help you record your messages and save on the typing part?
I am not sure if you have such a phone, but I find mine very helpful at times that way :)
Greetings precious friend, cheers for the advice about the phone too.

I've had a lifelong blood pressure problem, which can't be controlled as it's my regulator which is faulty but thankfully i'm a very calm, relaxed type, so it's not been dangerous as it would be to some personality types. This arthritis one is a bolt from the blue but these things are part of being an old dear, sure i'll adapt some but it's a pain in the rear at the moment.

You've had your troubles too sweet friend but you stay true to who you are as well, God's blessings and a massive hug to you.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
17,193
691
113
#85
"it wants you to think about all the problems at one time for confusion to get in you."

As someone who's experienced bouts of major depression throughout my life, can truly say that's one of the wisest sentences i've read or heard.

Love your comments actually, much spiritual wisdom and understanding of others contained in them. You're a truly lovely person, hugs and all that's good.
Wow, Amen a million thousand times over

If I may
I heard this truth a long time back
I was in depression and then out and back again

I was once AWOL from the service, I had a bad marriage, a baby on the way, and many other problems flooding me all coming in at one time, messing me up
I got told by a counselor, priest I saw to hopefully get help back then.
I have never forgotten this
I was spewing out all my problems at age 18 then, 68 now.
I got interrupted at about the seventh problem I was spewing out, throwing up. so to speak
When that person, stopped me. I was hearing this from him
It seems to me, he said to me, you are in a lot of problems going on all at one time? I agreed
Then he said, I see it might be best for you to handle one at a time.
Listening I heard him say
Go back to the service, turn yourself in, face the consequences and then either stay in or get out
Then when that is fixed, taken care of. Move to the next one. Take care of one at a time, starting with the most prevalent one
Benn doing that ever since, even though may a times have forgotten this
Thank you for the reminder, that is helpful
I am tagged with PTSD from service.
Learning. to count all things as somehow, someway good for me, especially if it feels bad presently. Putting past behind me, learning this all things ar past so fast, I never can get an eye blink in between.
To face evil and say thank you is not easy. I am still in process also
Love to all is the call I see from God not people generally. No accusing or excusing me or anyone else either ever again
God loves us all y'all. that is truth that is sharper than any two edged sword that Daddy, PaPa, Father give us to stand in
Amazing grace
God
Raises
A
Child
Eternally
 
Sep 29, 2024
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#86
Rats! Must go, summat's come up. So sorry, must go but hopefully can look in later.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
3,169
1,081
113
45
#87
makes sense. yet before I came to this transformation given me by God for me through Son to me.
I took the only choice free, left to me and chose belief in the risen Son to see new. Not quit no matter what troubles came and might come, matters not, it is done by Son for me to be in from my free choice to believe in Son, and continue in.
Yes I am now a slave to righteousness, because I stand in belief to God, not of any self work, only of Daddy's PaPa's, Father's done work
thanks Jimbone your post replies have opened up a fountain in me, thank you
I get that and know that's how so many are saved. That's how His word describes it and I can't see us understanding it any other way. I am in no way trying to "take" from that choice or even hint I'm trying to criticize or critique in any way. I'm not. However I do believe that God still gets all credit and glory for the fact you made that choice. I do not believe you could have made that choice outside of Him drawing you into Himself and every single thing in your whole life that brought you there.

See I was saved a little different. I too was drawn to Him and felt like I loved Jesus. I did choose to respond to the alter call, I did repeat the prayer with "all my heart", and was declared saved by the pastor, even baptized for good measure, but was not saved. Then after years of thinking I was saved I hit the hardest trial of my life so far. The hardship of this left me no longer believing there was a God anymore, I wasn't angry with Him, but just thought it was pointless nonsense. This was where I was mentally when He brought me to repentance. When I hit my knees the furthest thing from my mind was God or Jesus, what I was face to face with was "My Way" and the greatness of "ME". I hit my knees seeing exactly where 33 years of "my way" got me and it was nothing, on the floor broken with no way to fix it and no hope of anything ever, wanting nothing but to die, but couldn't leave my two sons with a dad that killed himself. It wasn't pretty. On my knees drowning in my own tears I quit everything, I just quit the world.

I woke up the next day a new man, but it wasn't until lunch that it hit me. After 2 solid years of uncontrollable suicidal thoughts at least every 5 minutes of everyday, I realized "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!". I knew then and there that whatever this was, it was God. And I knew Jesus was His Son. It's not that I have to say God gets the credit for my choice, I can't say anything but God saved me 100%, and the truth is that this holds true for every single human being that He's saved. This is why salvation is of God lest ANY man boast.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,781
523
113
#88
And this is the main point, it's only in Him that we are free from sin, right? Before that we are a SLAVE to sin, but guess what happens once God gives us spiritual life and we are born again? We get a new nature, and that nature is just as enslaved to obedience leading to righteousness as the flesh was to sin. So "our will" is never "free" according to His word. We are "A slave of sin or slave of Him" as I like to say.
Even slaves can disobey their masters. Slavery does not take away the power of the will to desire/want/will things the slavemaster objects to.
 
Sep 29, 2024
240
83
28
#89
Wow, Amen a million thousand times over

If I may
I heard this truth a long time back
I was in depression and then out and back again

I was once AWOL from the service, I had a bad marriage, a baby on the way, and many other problems flooding me all coming in at one time, messing me up
I got told by a counselor, priest I saw to hopefully get help back then.
I have never forgotten this
I was spewing out all my problems at age 18 then, 68 now.
I got interrupted at about the seventh problem I was spewing out, throwing up. so to speak
When that person, stopped me. I was hearing this from him
It seems to me, he said to me, you are in a lot of problems going on all at one time? I agreed
Then he said, I see it might be best for you to handle one at a time.
Listening I heard him say
Go back to the service, turn yourself in, face the consequences and then either stay in or get out
Then when that is fixed, taken care of. Move to the next one. Take care of one at a time, starting with the most prevalent one
Benn doing that ever since, even though may a times have forgotten this
Thank you for the reminder, that is helpful
I am tagged with PTSD from service.
Learning. to count all things as somehow, someway good for me, especially if it feels bad presently. Putting past behind me, learning this all things ar past so fast, I never can get an eye blink in between.
To face evil and say thank you is not easy. I am still in process also
Love to all is the call I see from God not people generally. No accusing or excusing me or anyone else either ever again
God loves us all y'all. that is truth that is sharper than any two edged sword that Daddy, PaPa, Father give us to stand in
Amazing grace
God
Raises
A
Child
Eternally
Thinking of you as a very dear friend now too, we have much in common. Know what, i wouldn't change my life experience for anything despite the pain i've often felt, it's taught me to try and understand others rather than blame, judge them etc.

Think the saying walk a mile in my shoes contains words to treasure and live by. Trying to understand rather than condemn other imperfect humans would save a lot of grief and suffering.

Must go, God's blessings and a big hug from me to you too.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
17,193
691
113
#90
I get that and know that's how so many are saved. That's how His word describes it and I can't see us understanding it any other way. I am in no way trying to "take" from that choice or even hint I'm trying to criticize or critique in any way. I'm not. However I do believe that God still gets all credit and glory for the fact you made that choice. I do not believe you could have made that choice outside of Him drawing you into Himself and every single thing in your whole life that brought you there.

See I was saved a little different. I too was drawn to Him and felt like I loved Jesus. I did choose to respond to the alter call, I did repeat the prayer with "all my heart", and was declared saved by the pastor, even baptized for good measure, but was not saved. Then after years of thinking I was saved I hit the hardest trial of my life so far. The hardship of this left me no longer believing there was a God anymore, I wasn't angry with Him, but just thought it was pointless nonsense. This was where I was mentally when He brought me to repentance. When I hit my knees the furthest thing from my mind was God or Jesus, what I was face to face with was "My Way" and the greatness of "ME". I hit my knees seeing exactly where 33 years of "my way" got me and it was nothing, on the floor broken with no way to fix it and no hope of anything ever, wanting nothing but to die, but couldn't leave my two sons with a dad that killed himself. It wasn't pretty. On my knees drowning in my own tears I quit everything, I just quit the world.

I woke up the next day a new man, but it wasn't until lunch that it hit me. After 2 solid years of uncontrollable suicidal thoughts at least every 5 minutes of everyday, I realized "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!". I knew then and there that whatever this was, it was God. And I knew Jesus was His Son. It's not that I have to say God gets the credit for my choice, I can't say anything but God saved me 100%, and the truth is that this holds true for every single human being that He's saved. This is why salvation is of God lest ANY man boast.
I understand as I have gone through my own turmoils too, thank you for sharing truth in God doing the saving. that is the whole truth, again thank you for reminding me, God gets all the credit period
Love to us all, wow woe is me Isaiah 6:1-7
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
3,169
1,081
113
45
#91
Even slaves can disobey their masters. Slavery does not take away the power of the will to desire/want/will things the slavemaster objects to.
So are you saying you testify of the weakness of God to keep you from sinning? How does this in any way relate to what I was saying overall? I think you just want to argue, teach somebody somethin, and be right! Yes you are correct the slave can disobey. But when I'm talking about the Lord of glory and testifying of the effect He has on me, I testify that He is awesome and by His grace I WANT to serve Him the best I can, you couldn't rip me from my "slavemaster". So what now?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
17,193
691
113
#92
Thinking of you as a very dear friend now too, we have much in common. Know what, i wouldn't change my life experience for anything despite the pain i've often felt, it's taught me to try and understand others rather than blame, judge them etc.

Think the saying walk a mile in my shoes contains words to treasure and live by. Trying to understand rather than condemn other imperfect humans would save a lot of grief and suffering.

Must go, God's blessings and a big hug from me to you too.
You too, thanking God for going through stuff, to teach me new and. not out of fear of God anymore since God being perfect love to us all Fear is cast out
1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
yes, to listening and not condemning since by God we are not condemned
Wow, to accept all things as are, whether bad or good is key to rest relief
I assuredly can not change anything that is past
I got family members past. One sister, one Brother, my Dad and my Mom
That all began at age 14, my sister on an overdose she was 18, then my Dad, when I was 17, he was 63, then my eldest brother at age 31, I was 21
My brother's death certificate states, physical cause of death"Unknown" He was found on Campus Crusade for Christ in 1978, leaned against a boulder with a Bible in his hand. Found by hikers, two mile above the sanctuary there in 1978
I have ever since stood in belief to God ever since, I did believe priorly anyways, even before my sister past. Then once saw this, my brothers death, I gave my life to Father, even though I was in a ferocious mess still and have gotten past much since, learning daily new things new form Father to me daily
And not proud over anything I have quit. It is not me that got me to quit. It was me agreeing. with God that certain things I was doing were not good for me, so I quit Tham, one at a time. remembering this as I grow up in maturing, I am never perfect of me ever, even thought I quit many things not good for me.
Guilt and pride Father relieves people from to love all period, ant this love comes from God. I cannot take any credit for it in it ever. Even though sometimes there has been a battle over it
Love to you friend in Father and Son as Won (One)
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,781
523
113
#93
This is possibly the greatest mishmash of quote-mined and out of context verses (allusions to) I have ever seen.
Wow. One extended section of Romans, Ch 7:14-25, you consider a mishmash of quote-mined, out of context verses?
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,781
523
113
#94
PaulThomson said:
Even slaves can disobey their masters. Slavery does not take away the power of the will to desire/want/will things the slavemaster objects to.

So are you saying you testify of the weakness of God to keep you from sinning?
Nope. Why would you conclude that from what I wrote?
 
Apr 2, 2024
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#95
You are not able to fly... Your last comment is interesting given that some people reduce coming to believe to making a moral choice. However the issue in Christian discussions always has to do not with choosing what color of socks to wear for the day but to believe in and love God. The natural man is inherently hostile in his mind toward God, and his heart is not suitable ground for growing a good tree to produce good fruit.
Moral choices are not something that saves, we are saved by grace.

Once we are saved, we should make the correct moral choices of course. (Ephesians 2:10)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
62,584
31,440
113
#96
Moral choices are not something that saves, we are saved by grace.

Once we are saved, we should make the correct moral choices of course. (Ephesians 2:10)
I agree that belief is not a matter of making a moral choice, however, that is just one example of what is said in egregious error by those who hold to their contrary false doctrine. I also agree that being saved, or rather made alive in Christ, comes first, then heart circumcision. This really seems to be the crux of the matter, for some believe it is their choice that makes them alive in Christ and saves them, whereas others believe they come to believe after being made alive in Christ. That is why looking at the multitude of verses regarding the natural man and seeing how he is incapable of producing the fruit of faith with his stony heart and inherently hostile-to-God mind is so important, and these verses in particular are almost always never addressed by the person who believes their will is already free in the natural state man. They have him believing that which he can neither receive not comprehend and hears as foolishness, ascribing to him qualities and characteristics only the spiritual man possesses. Some claim all hear which is obviously erroneous also, for hearing must encompass comprehension, and darkness (which is the natural man) does not comprehend the Light.
 
Nov 14, 2024
1,326
905
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#97
Wow. One extended section of Romans, Ch 7:14-25, you consider a mishmash of quote-mined, out of context verses?
What she posted is a mishmash of quote-mined and out of context verses that extends beyond Romans 7:14-25, and your limited reference is no better. In other words, Romans 7:14-25 totally refutes the idea of people not having a free will.

For starters, or to put things in context, Paul began chapter 7 (of course, chapters were added by the translators) by saying this:

Rom 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Who, in context, was Paul speaking to? He was speaking to them that not only knew the law, but that it, the law, has dominion over a man as long as he lives. Conversely, Paul had just finished saying this to Christians:

Rom 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

In other words, whereas sin has dominion over somebody who is under the law, it does not have dominion over somebody who is under grace or over a Christian.

Now that we know who Paul was speaking to in chapter 7, let us examine what he said to totally refute the idea that the unsaved or unregenerate do not have a free will.

Rom 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15
For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17
Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20
Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Here, Paul was describing himself while under the law or before he was saved. Even in his unregenerate state, he obviously had a free will. For crying out loud, how many more times did he need to mention that which he would do (his free will choice) and that which he would not do (his free will choice). Furthermore, even in his unregenerate state, he delighted in the law of God after the inward man.

Does this sound like somebody who loved darkness and all the other quote-mined and out of context nonsense that was posted here earlier by someone else?

And before anybody even attempts to suggest that Paul was speaking about himself as a Christian here, I will remind you of his testimony elsewhere.

1Co 9:26
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

As a Christian, Paul no longer had a law in his members that was bringing him into captivity to the law of sin (Rom. 7:23). Instead, as a Christian, or as someone who was now a partaker of " the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" which "had made him free from the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8:2), Paul kept under his body and brought it into subjection.

Why did sin have dominion over Paul before he became a Christian?

Paul told us exactly why when he said "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin" (Rom. 7:14). In other words, it is impossible for anybody to keep a spiritual law with only a fleshly circumcision. However, when someone is truly circumcised in the heart or spirit (Rom. 2:29), or when someone is truly born again of the indwelling Spirit of God, then they can not only will to keep a spiritual law, but also keep it by the power of God's Spirit which dwells inside of them.

Anyhow, even in his unregenerate state, Paul said "to will is present with me" (Rom. 7:18), and he said that because he obviously had a free will.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
7,044
2,808
113
#98
Wow. One extended section of Romans, Ch 7:14-25, you consider a mishmash of quote-mined, out of context verses?
That was not towards you, perhaps you have the person on ignore?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
62,584
31,440
113
#99

From: John 8:34; 2 Peter 2:19a; Galatians 4:8; Romans 7:14; Ephesians 2:3b; Romans 6:6 ~ “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.” They are slaves of corruption. When you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. You were of the flesh, sold under sin. We were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Our old self was crucified so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
That was not towards you, perhaps you have the person on ignore?
In Romans 7, Paul makes it pretty plain his will was not free. Of course, the blind say the opposite.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
62,584
31,440
113
Paul also never says, thank God I made the right decision LOL. He acknowledges he is what
he is by the will of God, and many times thanks God for compelling Him to do what He does.